Old fashioned B/W Photography...

[jan_de_ridder1]

I am relatively new to B/W ?do it yourself? photography and utterly

enjoy practicing this.

I have been trying to find ?my? film along with the right developer in

order to print pictures in which I can discover ?Life? (if you can

grasp what I mean).

 

I have so far tried the following developers: DD-X, D-76, Rodinal,

X-Tol, Moersch SE6, ID-11, Microphen, Neofin Bleu and T-Max developer.

 

The following films: Delta 100, 400, 3200, T-Max, Tri-X, Efke 25, 50

and 100, HP5+, Neopan and Acros.

 

After having developed more than 200 films or so, in all possible

combo?s, with different development timings in both 135 and 120 format

I have found the perfect combination for me is HP5+ or Tri-x (I see no

difference in these) developed with ID-11 or D-76 (no difference in

these either).

 

Acros film is also nice but strongly resembles a Photoshopped B/W

digital shot.

 

However what I have been trying to find is a combination which

resembles the B/W photos passed on to me by my grandfather, whom in

his time was a pretty well known photographer. I cannot put in words

what I mean other than ?old fashioned? B/W photography style. As

mentioned Tri-y with D-76 comes pretty close but hasn?t got the ?buzz?

 

Can anybody help me on this one, I am more than willing to try another

200 films but it might be easier if anybody here might be able to give

me some pointers?.

 

(by the way Neofin Bleu gives remarkable results, although this has

nothing in common with Old fashioned B/W photos)

 

Thanks in advance

 

Jan

[rover]

Chances are your grandfather was using,.........

 

TriX in D76. The apple may have not fallen too far off the family tree.

[don_mckeith]

Having been on a somewhat parallel trip,I would suggest,the first thing you need is a vintage camera.Box cameras,old folders with an uncoated triplet lens, or a Rapid Rectilinear lens.or maybe a brownie.

 

the best you can do for films these days are Ilford FP4+,Plus X,Efke 100/50 or maybe Foma 100(haven't tried it)-over -develop a little. use d-76 or Rodinal,(or maybe HC110-(d-76 in Maple syrup)I have many negs from the 1890's-1950's in 6x9/3x4/127 and they are all bullit proof-meant to contact print.

 

head over to the classic camera forum and take a look at the pics by Gene M,C.E Nelson,Jorn Ake,P.C. Headland,Glen Thoresen, Andrea Ingrim,Claudia, etc.etc. the list goes on and on-(don't mean to leave anyone out ,but it's a very long list)

 

also check the Brownie camera forum.

[conrad_hoffman]

The materials do matter, but not nearly so much as the format and technique. Find out what format he used. If it was roll film or sheet film, you'll never really get the same look with 35mm. Somebody with enough experience might be able to make a good guess by looking at the prints. Then it's a matter of shooting and printing for the same type of tonal values that he did- examine the shadows, mids, and highlights for detail and expose and develop accordingly. Expect a significant learning curve!

[rich_ullsmith1]

I admire your tenacity! But keep some notes, so your grandchildren won't have to try out so many combos to bring it back to life! (Tho it sounds like you're having fun.)

[dryfly]

Don't forget that you are trying to duplicate the look of your grandfather's prints, and you are only looking at the negatives, not the paper. As most of the people who have been doing it for a while know, the choice of paper will vary the final look of the print as much as, and maybe even more than the negative. This assumes that the film has been exposed and developed properly. So now if you really want to frustrate yourself, start experimenting with various papers. The first thing to do is see if any photo shops around you still have sample books of the papers from various manufacturers. If you can find them, they show the same image printed on each of the papers they make. You might be very surprised by how different the same negative prints on the different choices. You should find one that approaches the look from the old prints. Welcome to the club! Have fun in your quest!

[chris_waller]

I know what you mean. The 'old-fashioned' look is due to many causes but mainly the tonality of the film/developer combination. I shoot Delat 100 at 50 ASA and dev in Rodinal 1:50, 20 C, 8 minutes to give me the 'look' that I want, which is that less contrasty 1950s look.

[ole_pet.]

Hello Jan,

 

every know and then my clients ask exactly this for movie business: Children Portaits on desk of an 30 year old politican in 1930...

 

which "look" do you try to match? 1910 or 1930 or 1950?

1910: I?d try at least 4x5" not more than 100 ASA sheetfilm. Use rather a long exposure rather than flash. Don?t enlarge but contact it. Matte semi- or printsurface was more common. You could also try a sulfur toning, if you try to match the look of old prints now. To the time they?ve been taken, they could have been more neutral than today.

1930: If not studio-made shots, the fimformat should have been 6x6cm or 6x9cm. Kamera may a kind of Box like AGFA Clack or Daci or Belfoca - don?t bother. Mybe contact sheet, maybe moderate enlarged.

1950: Hmm, you should be teenager?! Time for Contax, Nikon or Leica? 100 ASA and enlarged to 5x7"?

 

The most important thing are the mistakes! Lens were?nt coated at all, or not perfectly. Film wasn?t as plain in the camera like today. Emulsion was richer of silver but thicker and not as constant-quality like today. There were those light lines at contrasty details. Long time exposure were usual and not as perfect sharp like tody due to slower filmspeed. The grain was much bigger but sharper, the filmformat bigger and the depth of field much smaller due to the lower filmspeed too. The transfer from colours to bw was a little bit different. The films were somethig in between orthochromatic and panchromatic; so blond hair and white of eg collars was different than today.

You may buy a any camera like this http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7510957514&fromMakeTrack=true

buy an quite oldfashioned film like ADOX at www.jandcphotography.com or www.fotoimpex.de develop in AGFA Rodinal in high dilution with minimal agitation and use a cheap lens for your enlarger. I?d use Ilford Multigrade warmtone surface 24K as long as available.

Good luck!<div></div>

[jan_de_ridder1]

Hi Forum,

 

thanks for all your answers, they make sense ... In pursue of my quest I have actually never thought of "the hardware" my grandfather used, I know he used a Pre-war Contax and a Leica 0 series, he also used a variety of large formats judging by the negative sizes and it makes perfect sense to assume that lenses then were different from the lenses we work with today, this will also impact the final result.

My favorite lenses in terms of picture quality (not view angle) are my Nikon 50mm 1,4 and my Zeiss CF 80mm, both very standard I use them 80% of all pics I make, these two lenses are ofcourse very different from the "old" lenses.

Also having read through the replies I was wondering if "old" subjects have anything to do with trying to achieve "old" quality, browsing through the first ten years of magnum material, or 40 to 50 HCB the subjects add to the classical atmosphere. I came to this only this morning where I was trying to place the comments in this thread.

Looking at 1930 Ansel Adams "Yellowstone Park" stuff it represents mountain, streams, couple of trees, furhter nothing what so ever to link it to the 1930 ies, this I think also impacts my view of matters, anyway I'me in for a another Darkroom day today, and am sure that I will enjoy myself....

 

Thanks for the replies, I highly appreciate the broad knowledge base of this forum...

 

Greetings,

 

Jan

[silent1]

One important thing to keep in mind: today's Tri-X is not at all the same film as the Tri-X of 1955. While the modern film has preserved a lot of the "feel" of Tri-X (the gritty grain shape, the ability to push beyond all sanity and still get printable negatives, the exceptional tolerance for the abuses to which press photographers have been known to subject film), the modern material has significantly finer grain (to a first approximation, 6x4.5 will give the same grain at a given print size that 6x9 gave 50 years ago), a different base with different antihalation properties, and harder gelatin (which changes development characteristics, which then affect the image quality). It might be impossible to fully duplicate the look of Tri-X from the 1950s, even though D-76 (especially if you mix it yourself) hasn't changed noticeably in 70 years.

 

One thing you might look into if your modern Tri-X is giving too "smooth" a look in 35 mm is getting a "short end" of Kodak Double-X Negative motion picture stock. This film is rated at ISO 250 for motion picture development, though you could probably use a higher EI for stills because you'll typically develop to higher contrast than would be the case for movies; it has a gritty, sharp grain similar to Tri-X, and is coarser grained than modern Tri-X (despite being slower). I've heard that this emulsion was once identical to Tri-X still film, and it's likely that the motion picture stock has undergone fewer changes than the still film stock we usually use.

 

The bad news is, "short ends" can be tricky to find, because supply depends on surpluses from motion picture filming (and there isn't much motion picture footage shot in B&W these days), and a "short end" is anything under 250 feet, so you may have to divide the roll in order to fit it into a bulk loader.

[marvt]

Having printed negatives made from the late 1890's to the mid 60's (well before "metering" was so prevalent) I find it isn't as much the negative as the printers ability to extract the informaton from the negative.

 

I have made prints that required 6 minutes wide open to prints that took 2 seconds at f/22 to print. These negativers range from glass, to nitrate, to regular film. Negatives that are so dark you can barely see through them and so thin the images is barely there can produced images that have a full tonal range and amazing detail. It depends a lot on the ability of the printer.

 

I would suggest you pick a film, pick a developer and learn how they work together. Pick a paper and a developer and see how they work with your film. One film, one paper. The ways you can change the look of your prints is nearly unlimited with just one film and paper and if you feel that you can progress no further, change one or the other and start over to learn all about this combination.

 

If your grandfather was pretty well known then I would think his printer (did he do his own) was also a talented individual and the combination takes some time to perfect. Good luck, I hope our comments are helpful.

[jan_de_ridder1]

Hi Marv,

 

I guess very wise advice you gave me. I will (for now anyway) stick with one developer, one film, one paper and one paper developer and see what the range of capabilities are.

I always wanted to do this from the beginning onward but then reading through forums like this one, one can get kind of excited and rush of to shops to get a bottle of this, that or the other .... but I see now that a more structural approach will be wise and will also most definately lead to better results. I will stick with Tri-x and D76, as for paper I work with ilford multigrade IV and Multigrade developer with which I am pleased. I will however look into Baryt and it's possibilities ....

 

Thank you all for your part in this thread, again, I am most gratefull.

 

Jan

[paul_baker1]

My understanding is that the Efke films ,25 and 100, are "old school" emulsions. I'd get a large format rid with an old lens and shoot some 4x5 Efke. An then you'd need to figure out how to print them to make them look old.

 

Paul

[dave_moeller]

There are a bunch of "old school" emulsions available: Efke, Forte, and Foma to name a few. Check out www.jandcphoto.com for film.

 

I'd seriously look into a cheap 4x5 (an old Speed- or Crown-Graphic perhaps), and old lens (look for something that's pre-WWII, as it's likely to be uncoated), D-76 straight for a developer, and 400 speed film. (I personally love the look of Foma in 120 size, and can't wait for FreeStyle to get it in 4x5 sheets.)

 

Interestingly enough, Fomapan 200, which is a much more modern film than their 100 or 400 speed films, gives a very nice "old fashioned" look. I shoot it with an old Voigtlander Bessa I 6x9 folder, and the negatives are definately reminiscent of the 1930's, especially when slightly underexposed.

 

Good luck with your work. I think you have the right idea with "one film, one developer" for a while.

[don_mckeith]

The camera(lens) and format have more to do with the look,than the film/developer

 

Arista EDU /D-76

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BzOb

[don_mckeith]

Tmax 400/Acutol-

 

 

http://westfordcomp.com/classics/coronetambassador/index.htm

[don_mckeith]

agfapan 400/Xtol-

 

 

http://westfordcomp.com/classics/coronetcaptain/index.html

[don_mckeith]

Tri-X/D-76

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Bzqx

[don_mckeith]

HP-5

 

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Bzqx

[don_mckeith]

Delta 400/PMK

 

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Bxdt

[don_mckeith]

Plus-X/Polydol(from 1979)

 

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Bx3p

[jan_de_ridder1]

I would consider this very clos to the atmosphere I want to create ....

[jan_de_ridder1]

Having seen it scanned it loses it's quality. I have a 40 x 40 cm print which looks great ....

[gaius1]

I agree, it's all about the lens. Get a Nikkor 105mm f/2 DC and vary the correction on it, it goes all the way from an ultra-sharp modern lens to a very soft focus outside a shallow depth of field.

[don_mckeith]

This is just my opinion,but I think it would save you some time to just pick up a Leica,and a pre war Contax.These can get very pricey,but the older German Glass has a different look than the newer Japanese glass.

 

Another(much less expensive) option would be to get a Kiev(contax copy) and a FED or Zorki(Leica copy), then you can shop around for some Zeiss,Leitz(sp) glass(**some** of the Russian glass is pretty good too),then you can stop worring about film/dev. combos and concentrate technique.