Numbers burned into Efke negatives

[larry_yungk]

Was not sure whether to ask this on the classic camera forum or here

but here goes.

 

I just returned from a trip to Australia where I shot 3 rolls of 120

Efke (100 speed) on a old Zeis Ikon/Nettar. I was unpleasantly

surprised to find all the numbers from the backing burned into the

center of the negatives. I had never had this happen before, but I

had always used Ilford in this camera previously. As far as I know,

I did nothing different - only had the back window (red glass is

intact) open for a few seconds to wind the film then snapped shut.

Changed rolls in shade. I shot a couple rolls of 400 speed Ilford

and 160 Kodak color in the same camera on the same days with no

problem at all.

 

All I can think is the paper backing is too thin on the Efke and

even a few seconds with the window open on the back are too much for

it (or it is sensitive to red light?). But the window has to be open

to see the frame numbers. I would assume that since Efke has

numbers on the backing, it is ok for older cameras where you must

advance film visually.

 

Any advice/ideas on what I did wrong? (I like Efke, and the Efke

100 I used in my 35mm on same days came out great.)

[__stu_evans]

The time between exposure and processing? A few months? An ink/emulsion reaction in processing delayed film is the most likely culprit. This is the reason that Ilford paper inking is so light and likely why you haven't had a problem with their film.

 

Kodak markings aren't as bold as Efke but I've seen stains on Tri-x as well. In any event, prompt processing is the key.

[raymond_wilson]

Larry,

 

I have used Efke 25ASA film in my Zeiss folder without the problem you describe, although I bet you are correct about the light making it's way through the numbers.

 

Regards,

 

Ray<div></div>

[paul ron]

It may be possable that newer films are more sensative to reds... OR... the red of the window has faded over the years. Maybe you should concider changing the red window?

[paulh]

I have heard of this happening with some films, although haven't encountered it myself. I've shot Efke 25 (120) with a red-window camera, and not had the problem - the results were really nice, and I'll certainly be making more use of this film in the future.

 

May be worth sacrificing a roll to an experiment if you really like the film. Get a piece of the backing paper and check to see how opaque it is. I always shade the window when winding, and always leave it shut otherwise.

 

Paul

[ronald_moravec1]

Efke 25 is more red sensitive than most monochrome film. Filter factors for yellow and red are far less than anything else I have used.

[larry_yungk]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The processing was done 2 weeks after pictures were taken, so I don't think time is the main factor. The film itself was about 6 months old but kept in the fridge - unless the print bleed through can happen in storage?

 

I have one other 120 roll left from the same batch, and I guess I will try shooting it in a newer camera without a window. That should give a good indication if it is print bleed through or not.

 

In re-examining the negatives, I see there is some fog between frames that is in same position as the window, so that makes the possible fading of the red glass an interesting theory. Particularly if the film is more sensitive to red (but the earlier response indicated that sensitivity was for 25 ASA and this is 100ASA). Not sure how I would replace the glass, but maybe layer over the outside with some red filter.

 

I guess the other thing to try is to advance frames in near darkness but that is not always too convenient.

[__stu_evans]

I guess a sample would help eliminate ambiguity and yield a best guess but a few things to narrow the field... The anomaly I mentioned would cast a sharp negative image on the film, thus a black image in print. The actual picture would not be modified. Light fogging usually overwhelms the image leaving a diffuse area of dark negative, or light print.

 

It is unlikely that light would penetrate the paper backing and with film that is sensitive to the visible spectrum, the color of the window is irrelevant. In this event, the printing would appear light on the film and dark on the print in relation to the circle that would have had to have been washed much lighter on the print.

 

Another thing happens to 6X9s. The window is closer to the edge of the backing and light spills in around the backing to blacken the negative.

 

Basically, if you had all three tracks visible on an otherwise unfogged viable image, you got inked - that excited silver calmed down.

[rustys pics]

If you check the Dr5 website, they do mention that the Efke 120 film is very susceptible to

fogging. I believe the backing paper is either thinner or coated with a less opaque black

backing. More likely it's the thickness of the paper, as Efke film loads perfectly in my Kiev

60, but never loads properly into my Rolleiflex.

Sticking with AGFA, Kodak, or Ilford film in the Nettar is probably best.

[mfophotos]

I have experienced a similar problem with Ilford's Pan-F when I have used cameras with

the red window, even though I have been very careful to keep it covered except when

reading the advancing frames. Used with other films, no problem. I no longer use 120 Pan

F in those cameras.

[tim obrien]

Hmmm. I don't know what I would do without PanF+ in my Nettar 518/16. Takes wonderful pictures. I have made sure the red window on the back is not leaking any light around the edges and have had no problems with that combination. I have never shot Efke25 or 100 in these cameras so I wouldn't know about extended red sensitivity. Those films works swell in my C220. I have used Efke100 in my Yashica44 with no problems and that camera does have a red window for setting the first frame.

 

I suspect your red lens is leaking a bit of light and the paper isn't thick enough to block.

 

tim in san jose

[georg_kern]

The red windows were useful with old, orthochromatic film, which could not see red. All newer standard b&w-films are more or less panchromatic and react to red light. So cover the red window with black tape, and remove this only for a short time when winding th film. Imprinting of the numbers can happen with any film, maybe it was just exceptionally bright in Australia. Yes, there are small variations in paper thickness and opacity, but as said above, the red window is not safe with modern film.

 

Regards

Georg

[lex_jenkins]

I've had no such problems using Agfa APX 100, 400 or Tri-X in my Agfa Isolette. (However I don't plan to use APX 400 again because it's quite disappointing compared with Tri-X and HP5+.)

 

APX 100 and 400 numerals are very easy to see through the red window. Tri-X, unfortunately, is miserably difficult and uncooperative. Even in bright daylight I can barely make out the numerals. In any dimmer light I need a small flashlight to see them.

 

However if you suspect the red window is at fault, try a piece of black electrician's tape over the window. Lift it up only long enough to watch the film advance.

 

Or it might be less messy to use masking tape, which is less likely to leave behind a gummy residue, along with a bit of exposed, developed, black film leader. That's what I do when using my Isolette as a faux panoramic camera by loading 35mm film in it. I cover the red window for the entire roll and count the number of turns of the film advance to allow for margins between frames. No light leaks yet.

[hans_van_hal]

On one of my old Zeiss Ikon's loaded with Kodak Portra 160, 120 spool I had a faint red cloud at where the red window sits. But only if the film would not be advanced for a couple of hours.

The red window on this particular camera could not be closed.

Shooting HP4 or HP5 with the same camera did not give any marks.

I have heard on other occasions that the paper backing of the Efke 120 films is too thin and leaks light.

There is a posting on that subject in the medium format forum concerning Efke films and Rolleiflexes.

[belledeux diana]

So it wasn't me. Necessarily. I had the same problem, but lucky me, the photos were for a class where we were to distress the negatives. Mine looked great with the circle and the number in the middle of a photo.

 

But I couldn't imagine what happened. There was little time between taking the photos and developing them...a couple of days or so.

 

I love the results from the few times I used Efke25. But they weren't consistant. And I did use an Icon Nettar as well as an old Ricoh box camera.

 

Now I'll try some in my sister's Yashica which has no red window for the film numbers, but a little indicator for the exposure number.

 

Now, I guess you could always count the turns for Icon Nettar, and just completely cover up the red window........there might become some interesting results there!