I Think I'm Agitating Too Much

[spanky]

Hi Everyone, While pouring over some instruction books, I found some

examples of negatives that were over agitated. The highlights looked

very dense and blocked up, kind of like mine do. When I agitate

(5 seconds every 30 seconds) I usually flip the tank in several full

circles, twice towards me, and twice parallel circle. I think for my

next few rolls I'll try more gentle, slower inversions. Maybe two

complete inversions in five seconds. I'm using mostly Delta 100 and

fp4 in Rodinal (dilution varies on my mood) and Delta 400, Delta 3200

and hp5 in Nacco Standard 76. All films are 120 and rated at the

manufactures ASA.

Any other tips or suggestions? I'm using a steel tank and reel.

Thanks,

Marc

[kaiyen]

Marc,

 

I made a similar "agitiation modification" a time ago. I found that the only way I could get 3-5 inversions in 5 seconds (recommended by my Photo 1 teacher) was to invert pretty quickly, and that produced marks around the sprocket holes. I found, however, that I could agitate 2 full inversions in 5 seconds in a gentle, slow manner and not have those marks. That's what I do now.

 

I do even less agitation with faster films (or EIs), to control the highlights in what is usually a high-contrast setting. For instance, with Delta 3200 in a contrast scene I'll agitate maybe once every other minute. I don't have my exact notes here at work, but my point is that using both time as a general controlling factor but also agitation as a more granular one is a useful concept to remember.

 

allan

[lowell_huff1]

Your technique sounds fine, I think it is the metol based developer that is filling in the highlights. Try a phenidone based developer, I sure you will prefer the results.

[thomas_sullivan]

I dont have any experience with Rodinal or Nacco Standard 76, but if you're doing essentially four inversions in 5 sec, you're agitating the heck out of the film ;o)

 

With "high energy" developers such as HC-110 and Acufine, I usually agitate one inversion every minute. With PMK Pyro, a pretty weak developer, I agitate 1 inversion every 15 seconds.

 

I imagine that there is a description of Rodinal and Nacco's 76 somewhere that describes their "energy"...I think sometimes they label it as "active" too.......characteristics.....

 

hope that helps

[andrew_hull]

Metol is a soft working developer, it should reign in contrast (i.e. Microdol). Isn't it?

[jay_de_fehr]

Could be over-agitation, could be overdevelopment, could be a combination.

[paul_hoyt]

I don't think your agitation scenario is excesive, it sound like you may have an exposure/development problem. When I develop in steel tanks and reels, I agitate every 30 seconds with invert, invert, invert invert. The air in the tank moves from top to bottom 4 times and then I shake the tank to displace any bubbles on the film. Continuous tone areas of the negative are evenly developed and contrast is controlled by exposure and developing time. If you are following manufactures recommendations for exposure and development, usually negatives tend to be under exposed and over developed. That combination assures a "snappy" print but leaves a lot to be desired aesthetically.

 

Paul

[alan_gage]

When I first started developing film (APX 100 in Rodinal and Tri-x in D-76) I was using the published times and I figured it would be close enough. I had blown highlights and white skies too. I was agitating the 1st 30 seconds and then 5 seconds every 30 seconds and doing so pretty violently.

 

So I shot very similar scenes on a roll of 120 and cut it in half. On one half I developed the way I had been. On the other half I agitated much more gently. I still agitated the 1st 30 seconds, but then only 3 slow inversions every minute.

 

I figured the results would be pretty noticeable, but in looking at the negatives and the contact sheet I really couldn't tell which negatives were which. My problem was over development rather then excessive agitation.

 

I've stuck with the 3 slow inversions every minute since I still get good results and it gives me more time to mix chemicals, clean, etc... between inversions. I've also been backing off my times with about a 25-30% decrease in time (condenser enlarger) giving me pretty much what I'm looking for (still fine tuning it).

 

Alan

[roger_bergeron]

try an initial agitation of 30 or 60 seconds.

 

Then, shorten your development time.

 

For me, this technique seems to feed the shadows while maintaining highlights from getting too dense (when using Rodinal).

 

(Be aware ,though, that Delta may be a different animal than conventional films processed in Rodinal.)

 

roger

[tim obrien]

Rodinal 1+50 for 30 seconds, then 5 seconds every minute. Adjust E.I. and developing time to control contrast. This combination allows the highlights to expend available developer sitting over it each and every time. The shadows develop normally according to exposure, the highlights remain quite printable.

 

tim in san jose

[jay_capodiferro]

What type film are you developing?

I have found that some films recommend a faster inversion of the tank than others for the opposite reason. That is, quickly inverting the tank will do less active development than slowly inverting it. By slower inversions, the developer will actually wash over the film more than a quicker inversion. Just remember to tap the tank after a quick agitation b/c air bubbles will occur the more rapid the agitation.

 

I agree with the over-exposure assesment.

 

I would do this test. Take 2 rolls of film, shoot the exact same scene back-to-back exposing the first roll with your meter recommendation and the second with one stop less exposure. Develope both rolls with your usual agitation method and check the results.

[chris_waller]

I give one inversion every 30 seconds. That is, invert-2-3-and-return. That's all it needs.

[enrico__]

dont think of '5 secs' of inversions. Do an inversion count.

If you are not over developing then try 3 inversions 'gentle with rotation' every 30 secs.

 

Dont aim for a washing machine type of affect...

[conrad_hoffman]

There are as many opinions on agitation as there are photographers. IMO, most people start out with too much agitation and/or too long development times, then eventually wise up and cut back. It took me a couple decades to figure it out, but hopefully most people are faster. The original advice from Kodak (I think) was 5 seconds every 30 seconds. That's probably too much for most film/developer combinations, and I use 6 inversions in 10 seconds, repeated once per minute. Initial agitation is 30 seconds, and I generally give ample exposure (+1/2 to 1 stop) and cut back on development a bit, until things print nicely with my condenser enlarger. Be sure your stainless steel reel doesn't slide excessively in the tank. Put some inert object on top to take up the slop if necessary. If the reel can move too much, you may get density problems near the edges due to high turbulance as the reel bangs back and forth. FWIW, I also hold the tank in one position during each agitation cycle, but rotate it about 90 degrees when I put it down. IMO, that gives a more even result, but no real proof.

[lee_shively]

I think you might be a little too aggressive with the agitation. Five seconds is actually pretty long and you can really shake your can a lot in this length of time. Since you found examples of over-agitated negatives that match yours, I think you should definitely try less aggressive agitation. I use two inversions with a tap on the counter and a half turn of the tank for 5 seconds every 30 seconds. That works for me but you should experiment to find out what works best for you.

[glenn_thoreson]

Agitation speeds up development. Manufacturers published development times are often too long. Combine the two and you get what you got. I have found that over agitating contributes to large grain, also. Decrease your agitation as recommended and if you are still getting blocked highlights, etc start cutting back on time. Be gentle. You aren't making martinis. Your highlights on the negative should allow you to just barely read a printed page through them. (old rule from when the earth was still cooling)