james_ogara1 Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Did the PN community ever come to a firm conclusion as to why B&W filmprices at places like B&H are up so much -- or maybe a different wayof saying th esame thing -- why can't you get imported Kodak films asreadily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_gerbehy1 Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Kodak has not yet left the film business...but they have made a commitment to their investors to be profitable.....and they are making a gallant effort in digital...wish them well....and say a prayer for Ilford while we are at it....the profits in film photography were supported by the volume of consumer films...pro films maintained film manufacturers status, but never grew in volume or profitability. There are fewer classes teaching black & white photography so the demand for the B&W negative film is rapidly declining. Consumer films and chemical processing profits are declining at a rapid rate. Look at the posts on this site today vs. two years ago. I hope film can survive, but in the words of Austin Powers, It's Digital Baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank.schifano Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 No firm answers on that one, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the poor performance of the dollar against the Euro. Not too long ago they were about even. Now it's about $1.30 to the Euro, a drop of about 30% in the value of the dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_lu Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 maybe cos people aren't buying as much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enrico__ Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 why would you think that, jeff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_ogara1 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 I think Frank may have it -- we are supposed to be at an all time low against the Euro, so if you have to buy euros to buy film in Europe, your costs just jumped 30 percent. Then add shipping, etc. Good thing is the situation will probably reverse itself at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben z Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 There's another possibility, which is that to sell it cheaply, places like B&H have to buy the "imported" film in much greater quantities than the USA film and they can no longer count on selling it before it becomes short-dated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_ogara1 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 True enough, but what happened to their imported color films, like Portra 160 and 400. Surely those are still sold in large quantities, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_divenuti Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Just went on the B&H website and did some price comparisons vs. their March, 2004 USA catalog... Ignoring the currency exchange rates, there have been some differences. Agfa & Fuji B&W film prices have stayed the same. The price for imported Kodak B&W film is up about 30% (e.g. Tri-X is up a bunch from 2.19 USD to 3.09 USD), and US-manufactured Kodak B&W film products are up about 0.10 USD. Kodak has been cracking down on imported B&W film since the spring, btw, and that's what I would attribute the jump in price for imported film prices to. Interestingly, Ilford Delta film products are up about 15-20% in most cases. HP5+ and FP4+ are up only about 0.10 or 0.15 USD. I would expect more general price creep. Silver futures are up more than 60% since 9/11/2001 and with fears about the robustness of the USD I would not rule out even more increases in the cost of precious metals as speculators continue to make their presence felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_ogara1 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 Al wrote: Kodak has been cracking down on imported B&W film since the spring, btw, and that's what I would attribute the jump in price for imported film prices to. al this this interesting -- anything more you can say about this? Clearly, the practice is not extinct since B&H still sells IMP and USAW versions. But on the wane, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__stu_evans Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 The version hasn't mattered to me but Kodak's not going to sell me Trix 100ft at $35 when HP5 is $25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustys pics Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 It may have something to do with the upsurge in the price of precious metals. As the dollar plummets, gold and silver have been rising steadily. So Kodak has to pay more for raw materials with a declining currency.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_ogara1 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 Stu, where can u get HP5 for $25 per 100 foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_divenuti Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 Kodak has been trying to enforce a policy whereby the IMP film is no longer cheaper than the US-made stuff. And it seems like it's having some effect, as USAW and IMP are no equal in price at the major NYC retailers. The IMP stuff is still available, and probably won't go away anytime soon but I doubt it'll ever be as cheap as it was before. Russ - all manufacturers (EU, Asia, and USA) are dealing with the effects in silver prices, not just Kodak. There is some discussion on APUG.ORG - which I won't really treat in detail here - that the increase in prices is the root cause of Forte's difficulties as they were content to buy raw materials in fairly small quantities and manufacture small batches of their product at a time. Maybe, maybe not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__stu_evans Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 HP5 from BH. I've used Trix til now but won't reward Kodak's enduring commitment to quality fine art photography if they try to tug me. I'll use Lucky first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_carper1 Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 Grey market relies on getting favorable exchange rates. With the dropping dollar, this has become more and more difficult. At ILFORD, we actually noticed times where grey market film practically went away, because the countries that were exporting it had a currency strong compared to the dollar. The weak dollar makes a huge difference. That is one of the major factors in the troubles at ILFORD, since manufacturing costs are in Pounds Sterling, and most of the income in $US. I suspect this is the biggest issue. If you converted the prices to Euros, they probably haven't changed much. David Carper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lex_jenkins Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 The persistent and ill-informed rumors that one company or another is going out of business (or already has) may be another factor. I heard this Chicken Little B.S. again this weekend at a local retailer. When I asked for evidence - an official letter, memo, fax, anything - they couldn't produce it. All based on hearsay. The dealer heard from a longtime customer, who'd heard from someone else who'd read it on the web. The market responds to this stuff so it's not surprising that the cheap Ilford film prices we enjoyed last year haven't settled on a new fair market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_divenuti Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I did a calculation assuming 1.5 g/m^2 of silver for silver gelatin enlarging paper (that's based on an Agfa figure for MCC) and determined that a box of 25 sheets of 8X10 contains about $0.62 worth of silver at current silver prices (about $7.50 per troy oz. which is about 2.4 g). The same amount of silver 3 years ago would cost about $0.36. On a $12 box of paper, that's a decline of more than 2% in gross margins right there without a price increase. I don't know what the silver content of a film is but I do know that silver represents a larger % of total manufacturing costs than for paper. Odd, then, that the tabular grain emulsions like TMAX and Delta with lower silver content are where the price increases are manifesting themselves. Lex - there is no such thing as fair market value independent of supply concerns (e.g. look at the price of crude oil). I find it's remarkable that silver-based photographic materials remain as cheap as they are given the supply worries, the exchange rate, and silver prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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