Should I switch from P67II to Mamiya RZ ?

[roberto_manderioli]

First let me explain what is my current equipment like: I have a

P67ii system with 55/75/135 and a Wista LF setup . I shoot mostly

outdoor and landscapes and travel. I particularly do not like

rangefinders.Being spoiled by the quality and flexibility of 4x5 I

was trying to find a MF system that could give me more speed of use

when I travel than LF and at the same time a little more DOF . Yes

the Pentax 67 is great, very easy to use but with limited DOF , with

the 55 you can only stop down to f:22 which yields acceptable DOF

(for my tastes) only beyond 3 meters .

After having seen and used 4x5 and met Mr.Scheimpflug I consider this

no longer acceptable.

I assume there is no MF camera that can give you flexibility

(movements) of a 4x5 camera and at the same time speed of use , I

therefore was considering to trade the P67 system with a Mamiya RZ

one in order to access wide angles with leaf shutters and minimum

aperture f:32 besides accessing a more complete and modular system.

Yes the Mamiya is slightly heavier but consider the tripod needed

would be smaller.

So my questions are:

 

- Is the Mamiya RZ really handholdable? I don�t mean to use it

handheld all the time. Traveling with the family I want to have the

choice every time: if I have time I setup the tripod and use the LF

style , if not I want to take the shot handheld.

 

- It is possible to use MLU while handholding? With the P67ii

it is with a little care, and I have obtained very sharp result with

wideangles and high shutter speeds (1/125)

 

- From peoplo who have used both system, do you find the RZ

significantly bulkier and more cumbersome than the P67ii ?

 

 

Thanks all for reading

[peza]

To have next date with Mr. Scheimpflug you may consider <a href="http://www.gx680.com/cameras/cameras.html">FUJI GX680</a>, but this is not typical travelling camera.<br>

Sharpness at f/32 will suffer on the other hand keep in mind..

[enrico_pocopagni1]

Ciao Roberto,

I have no experience with P67II though I've heard only good thing

about. I am a happy RZer, but I think that it's not the right system

for your special pourposes. The smallest aperture of 32 is

meaningless (and you'll trade more DOF with more diffraction),

shortest rectilinear lens is a 50, and handoldability is only

theoretical.

Hope this could help. Saluti. Enrico Pocopagni

[desmond_kidman]

Hi All,

 

I hate to disagree with Enrico, as he is a shooter and creator, not just an equipment junkie. But my disagreement with him is just a different point of view, and shows that the equipment really depends on the individual, his tastes, what he feels comfortable with, etc..........

 

Earlier this year I went to an RZ system after shooting Hasselblad for almost 20 years. I love square, but for the 2/3 of my shots that end up 8 x 10 I wanted to use the full neg of a 6 x 7.

 

Most of my work is on a tripod, but I do much of this work while walking with an RZ system with 4 lenses and 3 backs in a Photo Trekker backpack. I'm not an exceptionally gifted athlete, I'm middle of the road in that department, but I'm in decent shape, and the weight of this system, while tiring by the end of the day, is certainly acceptable to me for 7 days in a row walking all day.

 

As far as handheld shots, I would find it tiring all day at a wedding, but I could do it, and while traveling it is certainly hand-holdable. As far as MLU while handholding, it would be a little guesswork as it would be with any slr, but with a dual cable release it would be as feasible as with my Hasselblad.

 

 

I'm over 6', my hands are not huge, but are size large for gloves. If they were much smaller, say size medium, the span of the camera across the width would make it much less comfortable to grab onto, so part of this depends on your stature. I suggest you do what I did and go to a photo store and hold one for a while, walk around the store, dry shoot it. This will give you a much better idea, at least it did for me. After walking around with a Pentax 67II for a while, then the RZ, to my taste neither was a Leica but both were usable handholdable.

 

While the size might be a problem for some folks while handholding, the rotating back is WONDERFUL! No awkward holding the camera in a direction it was not designed to be fully comfortable at, this feature is a joy. And a big advantage over your Pentax is the far less vibration producing shutter. I know the Pentax guys will want to write in saying how sharp their photos are when they avoid certain shutter speeds, load the tripod down, etc., but no matter how you slice it, that shutter affects the sharpness more than a leaf shutter. Add interchangeable backs, and there are certainly some valid reasons for considering a change. My work is 80% tripod, and I simply could not use a Pentax due to the non-interchangeable backs (I shoot black and white, transparency, or color print depending on the subject, and changing instantly is a necessity more than a luxury for me), the non-rotating back, and the lack of leaf shutters.

 

So, depending on YOUR TASTES, both Enrico I are right! The RZ may not be for you, it may be for you. Try it! (By the way, the better lenses in the system are fabulous.)

[bob_cook]

Roberto - I made the switch from Pentax 67 to RZ, and then

switched back. My use is primarily landscape. Everything about

the RZ is bigger: the body, the finder, the AE finder, the lenses,

the accessories. And for me, it was just a little too much. The

rotating back is an outstanding feature, but balanced against the

rest of the system, I much prefer the Pentax. Image quality from

the RZ is also very good, as is my Pentax. I actually use both a

645N and the 67II, so I have autofocus to help my ageing eyes

when I need it, and the larger negative of the 67 when I don't.

[joachim_inkmann1]

Since you mentioned wide angle photography: as Enrico told you, the widest available lens for the RZ is a 50mm, which yields a hyperfocal distance of 1.56m at f/32 (assuming 0.05mm diameter of the circle of confusion). Your 55mm Pentax lens yields 2.67m at f/22. I see two options how you could increase DOF within the Pentax system: 1) The Pentax wide angle zoom achieves a hyperfocal distance of 1.89m at 55mm and f/32. 2) Even better, the 45mm lens reaches 1.79m at f/22. Thus, you come very close to the 1.56m offered by the Mamiya system. Of course, I am comparing three focal lengths, 45, 50 and 55mm. But since you are considering the change to Mamiya you are obviously willing to substitute your wide angle focal length (for my taste, a 45mm lens perfectly matches a 75mm lens). Note that the hyperfocal distances I mentioned are theoretical values and might differ in reality. Personally, I never would trade the P67II.

[roger_monroe]

Roberto,

 

I have been shooting with a RZ for the past four years or so. I

purchased it with the intent of using it for commercial work as

well as shooting my own documentary landscape work in the

field. In order to improve it's hand-holdability, I put the L grip, and

the AE prism on it. Although the camera is certainly more

ergonomic than it was, it is less than ideal for landscape work

due to it's cumbersome weight and size. When you combine the

camera with more than one lense , the dynamic multiplies. I own

the 110mm and the 65uld, which is a hefty lens.

 

The images are superb, f32 is nice, but I am probably going to

pick up either a Fuji 670 or 690. While there are those who say

the RZ makes a great field camera, there is an air of trying to use

a tool for a purpose it is not ultimately designed for. Yes you can

do it, but be aware of the drawbacks in weight, size and

inconvenience of carrying a bag full of RZ lenses( with the

exception of the 110mm - they are BIG). For me, it was wishful

thinking. As for using it when you are out with the family, you

would be well advised to hire one of your relatives as a

sherpa..... I think your Pentax is better suited for your purposes.

Frankly, I like the simplicity of having one lens on a compact

camera, such as a rangefinder.

 

Hope this was helpful, Roger

[patrick_drennon]

Petr hit the nail on the head. If you want view camera power (80%

of movement NEEDS) and MF SLR speed and portability the Fuji

is the answer. It is slightly larger than the RZ/RB cameras and

MUCH more powerful. Multi-format, full front standard

movements and a built in motor drive. Fabulous Fujinon optics

as a bonus. It is heavy and bulky for a medium format but not

horrible.

[david_chilvers]

I own an Rz ( ihave had two p67`s) i could never get a sharp picture hand help with the Pentax.

 

Images are better on tripod with the Rz( as they should be)

 

The technique with the Rz is, waste level finder, strap round neck taking the weight. small cable release screwed into lens. Now focus etc, fire shutter with shutter release( cabel not required)hold steady for a couple of seconds and trip lens shutter with cable whilst allowing weight of camera to steady itself. It works for me and the 50 ULD lens is a cracker.

Carrying all day ? when i was ten years younger i could carry the RZ around willy nilly but now I`m approaching 60 i tend to drive to the spot. For indoors or studio work i think IMHO that the Rz really wants some beating with the almost life size without attachments and the revolving back is the answer to your prayers.

 

I know that a lot of photographers say that they can get sharp images hand holding any MF camera but i have had most top cameras over the last 30 years and with hand on heart I have only ever been happy with results from the RZ hand held.( and i think that that is due to the weight of the camera hanging around your neck) I think a lot depends on your expectations.

 

Good Luck

 

Dave c

[paul_owen]

Sell the MF kit, buy a wide lens for your wista and a 6x7/6x9 roll film back. The benefits of MF film with the quality and movement of LF.

[jeff_drew4]

I agree with Paul. I had the LF rig + MF backs and sold it all to spend time in MF. At the time it made sense, but now there are times when only a LF rig is a best choice and my P67 and 6x6 rigs don't quite do the job. Many choices in Photgraphy are based in compromises and you are facing one. Sorry, but I'm buying back into LF later this year for those S+T bennies.

[squareframe]

Roberto,

 

please investigate the Hasselblad Flexbody. your date with Ms. Scheimpflug will most surely end with a delightful bubble-bath, candlelight, and pleasures far beyond that capable with medium-format and film.

[kevin_kolosky]

I agree with the last post. INvestigate the flex body from Hasselblad, and if you want to use other lenses they have an arc body as well. Both will allow you movements in medium format.

 

Kevin

[danny burk www.dannyburk.]

Lots of different opinions here. My vote goes with the Fuji GX680. I think it's really the best compromise of convenience and high quality along with movements on the full range of lenses (all leaf shutter). I also shoot 4x5, and there is no comparison between ease/convenience of use, not to mention time involved to set up each shot. The Fuji will give you most of the movements you'd get with a view camera - if you need something extreme, a view camera is still the most flexible - but I'd say that for nearly all landscape use, the Fuji has more than enough flexibility. I've been using one since November and love it, and the quality is sensational. It's the perfect answer when you don't have unlimited time to set up a shot, yet need great quality along with movements.

[paul_.]

Hmmm. I've used a P67 a bunch and use an RZ now. The fact is, they're BOTH too big. Having said that, I like the RZ a lot more, not least because it will close-focus ANY lens and the optics put every Pentax 67 lens I've used (probably four, total) to shame. I'm not sure why you hate rangefinders, but I've used a Fuji GW670 on foot, on a bike, jumping in and out of the car, etc. and it's lighter than a P67 or RZ and just as fast (albeit with more limitations). Lens quality is as good or better than Pentax. Perhaps you just need to get used to the rangefinder? I actually find it easier, in terms of comoposition (you see more than you get), and it would be a shame to rule out a Fuji or the Mamiya 7 without trying one for a few days. The real issue here though, is that you want ultimate sharpness with a lot of DOF, and I have not used a single lens, even in large format, that's as sharp at f/32 as f/11. I think the physics of that would be pretty difficult. Your best bet might be LF with a 90mm or wider. Lots of DOF. As to mirror lockup with the RZ, you can do it with a short cable release run up against the grip. Trip the mirror, then immediately trip the leaf shutter. Mamiya even makes a cable release that does this for you, a fraction of a second apart. But I can make hand held images at 1/125 with the 110mm that are tack-sharp, without MLU.

[dlabrosse]

Roberto,

 

I'm a Mamiya RB67 user and though I've never used or touched a Fuji GX680III, it sounds like it has all that you ask for. However, it is a very large (and expensive) camera!

 

Good Luck!

[roberto_manderioli]

Well, this is the original poster, lots of good advices here. It seems the general consensus is that both cameras, the P67 and RZ can do handheld with MLU but that in this realm perhaps the Pentax has a slight edge (as I mentioned, I can handhold, frame the picture , flip the mirror and fire the shutter very easily with the Pentax, with no cable release). Therefore I am oriented in keeping the Pentax, and I am also grateful to this forum because sometimes prevents us in pouring blood making switches between one system and another.

 

About the GX 680: I ruled it out from the beginning because I cannot think how I could shoot handheld with a 4kg camera and, last but not least , a basic system costs like 2 Pentax 67ii or Mamiya RZ bodies .

 

Hasselblad FLexbody: very interesting even if not exactly cheap and offering only rear tilt. It is a viable option IMO but I'd have to give up 6x7 in favour of 6x4.5 (as this is the final format I would end up to crop all my prints) .

 

Rangefinders: The perfect solution theoretically but I don't have feeling with them even if I know a Mamiya 7 produces sharper images than a P67 .

 

LF + MF RFH : As said I already have a complete LF system , a Wista 45 including a 6x9 RFH . This system if the most powerful one for landscape IMO: if you have time you can do almost anything. But with no question it is not the right choice to travel with wife and children. Working with LF gear is a big hassle even if alone, it is more suited if you already know the places you are going to, and this way you are going to get absolutely stunning result.

Having said that , I want to underline the fact that I am not selling the LF gear but that I was looking for a better MF solution when travelling

 

I think the way to go is getting a 45 for the Pentax, or a 55-100 Zoom which would allow me to stop down to f:32 , as Joachim suggested

 

I want to thank the forum again for these delightful and helpful comments .

 

Ciao

[patrick_drennon]

Roberto, I'm one of the promoters of the GX680 idea. You are

correct in assuming it is more handholdable than an LF but is

not ideally suited to that mode.

 

I also have P67II and an MLU P67 w/ 45, 105, 165LS and 600. It

is my favorite system due to my experience and comfort with it

and I very much second what you appear to have decided to do. If

you don't need front movements I think the camera is unbeatable

for your application. Just an opinion (my GX 680 has yet to leave

the studio in 1 1/2 years).

[steve_rasmussen]

The 45mm and 55-100 do have good DOF but don't forget about the new 90-180 with f/45 at all focal lengths. There is no DOF scale on the zooms so be forewarned.

[brandon_jackson]

This may be way out there, but you could pick up a an older (really old sometimes) Bronica S2a or EC and get the bellows for it. The Brinca bellows for this camera not only allow the used to focus to infinity, but the bellows also have swing & tilt movements to them as well. Think of it as a poor man's GX680. This might be a good way to augment your current setup rather than swithing out of your pentax system entirely. (Those Pentax optics are really hard to beat)

[philip_tilton]

I owned a Pentax 67 (not a 67ll) and was very happy with it except for two things: (i) the camera simply cannot be used on a tripod (required for most of my work) in the portrait position; and (ii) the absence of interchangable film magazines. I use the zone system and cannot carry three Pentax cameras (dedicated to normal, expanded and reduced development) with me into the field. The Mamiya RZ resolves both these issues. I prefer the Mamiya over my Hasselblad because I like the 67 format. If you don't really need the interchangable film magazines, you may want to look into the Mamiya 7ll - what a camera!! It is very light, has absolutely superb lenses and can be hand held with confidence - even at relatively slow shutter speeds. I bought one as a "walking around camera." I now bring it as a backup to my large format camera (in place of the RZ) when I travel on landscape photography trips. Although it doesn't give me the flexibility of interchangable film magazines, I love the fact that I can take it right out of the car and use it without a tripod, if necessary.