Kindermann & Agitation

[hans_verbrugge]

Hi,

 

I just received a kindermann tank, capable of loading 2 35mm films.

I had some issues with my Paterson (film loading / leakage).

 

The question I have is, is it normal that the reel travels up and

down when I do agitation (reversal), or is this just the way those

tanks work?

[kaiyen]

I have a Nikkor tank, that has only a tiny bit of travel when I put 1 35mm reels in there. However, my dual 120 tank (which is also a quad 35mm tank, obviously), has a LOT of travel in it. I actually only do like a 45 degree inversion (so more like a tilt) when I use that one, because there is too much a chance of over-agitation otherwise.

 

Especially with 35mm, with the sprocket holes, you'll probably want to control the surging at least a little bit, so maybe full inversions aren't a good idea.

 

allan

[ronald_moravec1]

Don`t have Kindermann, but my old Nikor stainless tanks and reels have about 1/4 inch movement, perhaps less. They are not anchored as in a plastic tank. All the single, double, and quad reel tanks are the same.

[tim obrien]

Two answers here. If you had real Kindermann reels, you would notice that they have a little bend at the end of one of the spirals. This bend when placed down on the bottom reel and up on the top reel, keeps the reels realy still.

 

Second, if you don't have real Kindermann reels, place a squashed 35mm cassette at the top of the second reel, between it and the top. For 120 reels, I use an old plastic spool that I have bent the flanges on one side. This is placed on top of the reel between it and the top.

 

It is important to keep the reels from sliding all over the place inside the tank. Consistancy is the name of the game.

 

 

tim in san jose

[maury_cohen]

Regarding Tim's note about the squashed film container. What I did was slice a section about 1" long off of a common plastic film container. This short section can be squashed into an oval shape to fit as a spacer in the developing tank.

I always placed it on top of the reel(s).

[john_cook1]

Every size of Kindermann tank is slightly taller that other stainless tanks. It has always been their trademark.

 

This extra space will result in slightly more film reel movement during inversion. This added movement will result in slightly more development action than with shorter tanks.

 

As long as you use only the Kindermann tank (and do not switch back and forth) this will not create a problem. Run a test. You may simply need to reduce development time by five percent or so.

[hans_verbrugge]

Thanks all. I figured that the strong movement would not do my development much good. I do have 2 reels, so locking them should go fine. I think I will just try the locking method and also the tilted agitation method. According to the small manual I need to fill the tank to its capacity, so I also do that, unless there is a reason not to. I stick to my current times and agitation scheme and see if there are any diffs.

 

Thanks again!

[ronald_moravec1]

The idea is to have intermittent, random, vigorous agitation with periods of rest in between. The reels moving a few mm is not going to effect the results.

 

Where you get into trouble is trying to get just a little agitation with small movements and you end up setting up agitation patterns and streaks. Large format film on hangars is removed and imersed two times each minute with alturnate corner draining. Kodaks current standard is five to seven inversions at thirty second intervals. Pleanty of agitation in each case.

 

If you are trying to let developer exhaust in the highlite areas, simply increase the interval between agitation cycles.

[sjmurray]

I have a Kindermann 32oz tank that will hold 4 35mm reels or 2 120 reels. I just developed a roll of 35mm and a roll of 120 together in the tank. I used an extra 35mm reel as a spacer. The reels do have about an inch of extra space in the tank with that configuration. I worried about excessive agitation too, but the film came out evenly developed, even the 120 roll's "sky" areas. My 16 oz Kinderman has never given me any problems and I've developed thousands of rolls. I use two inversions every 30 sec. BTW.

[frank.schifano]

Obviously you want to limit movement of the reels within the tank to a minimum, but you don't have to make yourself crazy about it. If you have a two reel tank, then use 2 reels even if one is empty. A few mm of movement isn't going to make a bit of difference one way or the other. Don't skimp on the agitation and follow whatever scheme makes sense to you. If you're doing inversions, then do inversions. A 45 deg tilt is not enough to get things properly mixed up. And don't use only enough chemistry to cover the film. You'll surely lose some to leakage and the reel plunging in and out of the chemistry may cause surge marks around the sprocket holes with 35mm film.

[silverhalide1949]

I've been using a Kinderman 16oz tank & 35mm reels for years. The very slight movement during inversion agitation does not effect my results. I always use 2 reels and fill to overflow even when developing 1 roll.

 

"Until the last SilverHalide Crystal is Extinct" Robert O

[phillip_p._dimor]

Mine does the same, personally I like the travel. Just make sure to tap/bang the tank as to dislodge air bells/bubbles.

 

Actually, just about all of my tanks have some degree of reel travel.

Nikkors, Telesars/Generics, etc.

[tom_werner2]

Something I read about long ago, it works for me.

 

Buy Tiparillo cigars (the kind seen in Godfather movies), and snip off the plastic holders. These will make a tight fit on a "lift rod" if you use one. Otherwise, I just jam one into the top reel.

 

None of this may improve your negatives, but it will calm your nerves.

[al_kaplan1]

This was an actual class discussion many, many years ago. We decided there was some truth to it. Whenever one of us would be souping film of some REALLY important thing the grain seemed bigger and had an uneven disrupted pattern. If someone else souped it, perhaps thinking it was just a test of a new lens or something, the grain pattern was gorgeous! Worry less! Somebody came up with the theory that your brain, when tense and worried, can send out waves that cause increased graininess when you develop film.

[hans_verbrugge]

:)

 

I did the first roll last night. I used 2 reels (the bottom one being a hewes, the top one a kindermann. I didn't fix the movement, I guess it is ony a few milimeters. I filled the tank to its full capacity, 450ml. Upon first inspection with the loup, things look fine !

 

Thanks again for your time and answers.