Where are all the women?

<p><a href="../classic-cameras-forum/00XWrK">This post</a> from a few weeks ago got me thinking - are there only dudes on here? I only see guys posting up stuff. Why is that? Are we chasing the women away? Is there some other secret, magical forum filled with just women? (I often have the same question about bars when I go out on Friday night) If so, where is it and how do I join? (I meant the forum not the bars but if you know of a secret magical bar I'd be grateful for that information too)</p>

<p>Ladies - if you're out there, post 'em up!</p>

<p>A similar topic came up yesterday when I was having lunch with a female friend of mine; she made the observation that none of the women she knows have hobbies, including herself.</p>

<p>This may be the key to why we don't see more women on the Classic camera forum.</p>

<p>I don't know if the hobby thing is true, but it might be interesting to research.</p>

<p>First, while (old) men tend to have more time for this sort of thing and to be more fascinated by old machinery of all kinds, there may be more women here than you think.<br>

At least I hope we're not chasing them away.</p>

<p>I mean, I'm a very sensitive person myself, and I'm still here.</p>

<p>;)</p>

<p>I've always observed that the fastest way to remove all of the women from a given area is to walk in and say, "Hey, where are all the women?"<br /><br />As for sensitivity, JDM, my wife observes that there is no creature more temporarily sensitive than a lonely man.</p>

<p>Women generally post photos in the gallery rather than waste their time hanging out talking about gear with a bunch of guys. If you want to spend time with women on photo.net, get active in the gallery area.</p>

<p>As a curious aside to this everytime I go out in a public place with one of my Rollei TLR's around my neck, and I mean EVERY time, I have gotten a comment from a woman such as "What a cool camera", or "I really like your camera".<br>

Now I admit I'm an attractive cool guy (LOL) but what's up with this?</p>

<p>Photo.net can be an ugly misogynistic place. Women who dare to ask technical questions are often patronized, and occasionally attacked.</p>

<p>Jeff is probably correct that women here tend to concentrate on photographs first and technique second. Having said that, the galleries are still largely male, and about 90% of the 'top-ranked' photographers here are men. (This may partly reflect that the top-ranked photographs include a large number of female nudes.)</p>

<p>"there is no creature more temporarily sensitive than a lonely man."<br>

now that's funny (and true). cb :-)</p>

<p>Strange as it may seem, I used to know a lot of women photographers, in fact more than men. Not so strange was that none were really big collectors.</p>

<p><em>Photo.net can be an ugly misogynistic place. Women who dare to ask technical questions are often patronized, and occasionally attacked.</em><br>

Examples:<br>

<em><em>A similar topic came up yesterday when I was having lunch with a female friend of mine; she made the observation that none of the women she knows have hobbies, including herself.</em></em><br>

<em><em>About 90% of the 'top-ranked' photographers here are men. (This may partly reflect that the top-ranked photographs include a large number of female nudes.)</em></em><br>

I don't post very much for the same reason I wouldn't sidle up to a group of strange men and start a conversation. What would we even talk about? I don't need help picking a lens and I don't share their fascination with lighting techniques for nipples. Plus whenever I read some not-so-subtle sexual comment made by the above group it nauseates me and I have to click away from the site altogether. That happens way too much for me to want to join in. </p>

<p>Good lord I just read that thread linked in the original post. Look no further for the reason behind photo.net's dearth of female posters:</p>

<p><em>Last time I showed a woman my Large Format Gear I got slapped...</em></p>

<p><em>Some just like how cute some cameras look and buy them as a fashion accessory.</em></p>

<p><em>Let's get down to brass tacks:</em><br>

<em>Were they hot?</em></p>

<p><em>Oh well, I guess we have to truckle to the feminist crowd from time to time. Women are superior, yeah, yeah. But saying that won't get you laid!</em></p>

<p>And the threadwinner:</p>

<p><em>I hope you mean that it's the cameras the old guys are fondling.</em></p>

<p>Mmmm, let me just go lobotomize myself.</p>

<p>Sexual comments are nauseating to women? Then why do so many women make them? You sound like an unusual person, Rebecca, if what you say is true and not for effect. </p>

<p>I'm one - does that help? </p>

<p>When I go out with the Rollei I am very popular as well. Everyone wants to know about it. I went around the world recently and this camera was a hit in every language. So many people had memories with the Rollei years ago and told me about them. If I'd taken the time, I could have collected a book of stories. Locally, if I take the Graphic View with its red bellows out, it's even more of an attraction - I can't get any work done unless I have someone with me to answer questions while I compose. Restored manual cameras working in the field are conversation starters. </p>

<p>My observation with classic manual cameras is that there is a lot of mechanical fiddling, cleaning & repair involved. A lot of fussing with the camera and a lot of careful technique to get it to shoot again decently. Men tend to enjoy that more than women, is my thought, and I think in general it's a more encouraged activity for boys than girls, though of course I am generalizing. Basically I am trying to say that there is a heavy "gearhead" vibe here! One can almost see the workbench, and smell the cleaning chemicals when one comes to this part of the site. I'm guessing that is why there so few women. I grew up in an engineering family and have worked at scientific labs all my life - I am used to working among a nearly all-male population. Maybe I feel more comfortable with it? But I don't fix my own cameras. I appreciate the help I have gotten here, both for the pre-buying advice and when something is wrong, but for anything serious, I pay Fred at the camera repair shop. And I like to think he works just a little faster if you have a jar of homemade strawberry jam for him in your purse. </p>

<p>A group of men talking amongst themselves, making sexual comments, often bordering on misogyny, is just repulsive to me. And it's everywhere here.</p>

<p>I see I quoted you, Red, citing examples of misogyny. I sense we're not going to find much common ground.</p>

<p>I think Most women are too intelligent to get a Holga.<br>

I think as a poster mentioned, they would rather post good photos.<br>

and also women tend not to be "gearheds " like us old guys.<br>

No reason why a woman cannot be a excellent photographer<br>

OR an Electrical engineer ( you don't need to be 6 feet and 200 lbs)<br>

but for some reason I have only met 3 Lady electical engineers.<br>

It must be some kind of cultural thing.<br>

4 of my VA doctors are women.</p>

<p>The only one of Rebecca's quotes that really bothered me was:<br>

<em>Some just like how cute some cameras look and buy them as a fashion accessory.</em><br>

<br />Okay, yeah, I do know some superficial women who have done that. But really, on a photography forum where women photographers are present and active, isn't that just a bit insulting? What if I said that guys who choose the most intimidating-looking lens are compensating for a small p*nis? That would be dumb, and inaccurate, too. If I went on with that attitude and nobody ever called me on it, or took issue with me, this would be a forum that appeared to support anti-male thinking. See what I mean?</p>

<p>Ultimately, I think Rebecca's trying to say that a dirty joke or innuendo is one thing, but a whole lot of them frequently made adds up to more of an environmental statement. I don't think it's overboard, but maybe she does?</p>

<p>The way that some men sometimes talk about nipple lighting and how to pose women as if they were furniture is bordering on the sick side. It's all about tone here, but some of it's a little chilling. I have a hard time with that and close it down whenever I see it. I have not seen anything like that outside of the fashion/modeling and sometimes lighting forums, thankfully, though I have had a window into it in the critiquing section. That definitely keeps me out of those forums.</p>

<p>Ok, before this starts to deteriorate into a firestorm...as the OP I should jump in with a couple of comments.</p>

<p>First, the point of my post was to try and see if we could get more people to participate on this particular forum. Not that we don't have enough contributors but the more the merrier, right? The obvious section of the population that was missing was women.</p>

<p>Second, my question was specific to Classic Manual Cameras and not to Pnet as a whole. There's a reason I spend much more time over here than in any of the other forums. There's a whole lot less "what lens should I buy" and a whole lot more posting of pictures. Also, the folks around here are usually very encouraging to rank amateurs like me, and very generous with their knowledge and advice. Someone once observed that different fora on Pnet have different personalities. Well, CMC and Canon FD (not a coincidence that they share many of the same posters) have great personalities, which I would hope are not intimidating to women (or any other section of the population) participating.</p>

<p>Rebecca is right that sometimes comments have been made around here which are less than sensitive - one of the comments listed above is mine so I apologize if it offended. That said, they are better than other fora which I have looked at and which I had the impression have more women participating.</p>

<p><strong>Rebecca</strong> - I hear what you're saying, but in response I'd ask you this - one, don't necessarily assume that all the fora on Pnet are the same. They're very different in character. Judge us by the standards of this forum. Not that I'm criticizing any other forum (I occasionally participate in others too) I'm merely saying CMC is a great forum. Second, if you want to change behavior, I'd argue that the best way is to participate, not to ignore us.</p>

<p><strong>Jennifer </strong>- yes it does help! I know that the gearhead aspect of this forum can be intimidating (it is and was for me) but I think the ultimate reason we hang around here is not the gear in and of itself but the pictures the gear take. I for one would love to see what your Rollei (and you) can do. Not because you're a woman, but because you are a photographer.</p>

<p>I'm going to repeat that last point - I'd love to see more posts from women around here, not because you are women but because you are photographers and it sucks if you feel like you can't share your work.</p>

<p>Ok I see the mods just moved this to Casual Photo Conversations so some of my post above is out of context. That said my point remains the same - if you're a photographer I'd love to see your work, and if you feel uncomfortable participating I'd like to do something about it.</p>

<p>I look at the board using the unified view option so all the different sections tend to bleed together. But Kayam, the quotes I picked out are from this particular (classic camera) forum, in fact, just one thread in this forum produced all of them. I don't believe those comments and attitudes can be corralled to just one forum unless those posters are corralled. And I am participating!</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Kayam, the quotes I picked out are from this particular (classic camera) forum, in fact, just one thread in this forum produced all of them.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><strong>Rebecca</strong> - I take your point that CMC is not innocent either, and as I said it was that thread which got me thinking about the question. That said, I find that 99% of the threads in CMC are not sexist or hostile in tone or subject. Believe me, I spend a lot of time over there! Again, just to be clear - I'm not impugning any of the other fora, I can only comment on CMC because that's where I spend 95% of my time.</p>

<p>From your member profile I'm going to assume you're a new member here and haven't joined many of the discussions in many of the fora. I appreciate you're participating in this discussion, but I'm asking for participation of a different order - posting images and responding to discussion threads on photography, generally being part of the hubbub.</p>

<p>Finally, since this is the Internet and we're a bunch of photographers who passionately believe in freedom of speech, its impossible that these fora will be 100% PC. Provided the culture is not to actively encourage behavior that is exclusionary (clearly you think it is around here and that makes me sad), I hope you'll still share your thoughts and images despite the odd piece of behavior that you find objectionable.</p>

<p>Kayam, I'm not trying to be a bitch, because I feel like you're interested in hashing this thing out, but you yourself made a comment that I would find exclusionary or off-putting but you obviously didn't. I don't think we're judging these boards by the same criteria for gender neutrality. Your comment wasn't offensive enough for me to clutch my pearls and close the window but if you had said it standing in front of me I would have been pissed enough to roll my eyes and call you on it. That would probably be my reaction to most of the sexist or sexual comments on these boards. I don't think it's egregious enough to cut into anybody's freedom of speech but it's enough to keep me and possibly other women from wanting to take part. </p>

<p>It's just a matter of my not feeling like I'm among peers or people I can have much artistic discussion with without someone slipping in what I think is an, at the very least, unnecessary comment about women. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>one of the comments listed above is mine so I apologize if it offended</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This is becoming common among politicians lately, and it's not an apology. It's a non-apology. Either you think it's wrong and offensive and you are sorry, or you think it's fine to say but it might have offended, so you are only apologizing because someone might have seen it as offensive. Those are two totally different things, you certainly justify the complaints that have been registered.</p>

<p>I'd say the atmosphere here is hostile to women, at least at a subliminal level. If it was the workplace we might be in trouble at times.</p>

<p>It's not direct attacks on women, it's just the subtle innuendos and off hand remarks. Basically insensitivity, just as in the rest of society [unless someone happens to post a nude, - then it's often just outright sexist and offensive]. It doesn't happen a lot, but it's persistent at a low level. Not quite "locker room", but often enough leaning that way that women may not feel welcome or comfortable joining in discussions.</p>

<p>I'm not at all surprised we don't have more women participating in the discussion forums. Some of the more offensive (male) comments may get moderated out, but it's a gray area between being reasonable, censorship and totally politically correct and moderators aren't the PC police.</p>

<p>I'm tempted to suggest a "Women Only" forum, but in its own way that too may be offensive to some (separate but equal never really worked out...) and I suspect that we'd get a few participants who had undergone a virtual sex change.</p>

<p>You can't really win this one. Too much testosterone in the room. It's a pity since I suspect we are missing the opinions and thoughts of some members who would be valuable participants in the discussions.</p>

<p>The sad(?) thing is that a lot of guys simply don't know when they are being offensive. I don't think that they are being deliberately hostile, they just don't know any better - but that's not really an excuse.</p>

<p>Women are generally less geeky. They would just pictures rather than talk about it.</p>

<p>Another stereotype....</p>