Shooting and Developing very expired film

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been discussed to death but I have a question.

I tried two test rolls of 127 film recently.

Roll 1 was EFKE100 which expired in 1990. I rated this two stops below at ASA25

Roll 2 was a bit more experimental as it was 'standard' orthochromatic film H&D1300 which I rated four stops slower at ASA4. This roll is very experimental as it expired in 1939 and I just want to see if I can get anything from it.

I have been trawling the 'net trying to find if there is a good starting point for attempting development of these two rolls.

First question is: have I actually 'pulled' the film? or just compensated for the lack of sensitivity now due to age? In development, do I need to compensate as if I had 'pulled' the film or just develop normally? I'm a bit confused on this.

2nd question: best developer to try. I have Ilford DD-X and Rodinal to hand. I like the idea of using the DD-X as it's great for reducing grain and giving full film speed. Or I could go the safe option and stand develop in Rodinal for an hour. From memory, I think the film rescue project just develop normally and use something like D76.

I would greatly appreciate any help or tips anyone can give me as I can't wait to see if I get anything from these films, especially the 'standard' film from 1939!

Thanks.

The developer usually recommended for old film is HC-110 and that's what I've used on some Verichrome Pan found in old cameras. Since I've done that just twice, I'm hardly an expert. I also didn't shoot them. I think I used dilution B (1 part stock HC-110 and 63 parts water) for about 8 minutes at 68F. Both rolls I developed had a few usable shots, but were very low contrast. One had definitely been in the camera for a long time and the camera got opened a few times during that time.

Here's a link to someone who got decent results with HC-110 - Lomography - Expired Film: Developing Ancient Black and White Film

HC110 dilution B is 1:32, unofficial dilution H is 1:63, double development times for dilution B for dilution H.

Several years ago I came across some 30 to 40 year old TriX in a bulk loader that yielded 6 -36 exposure rolls.

I found that HC110 at 65°F reduced fb+f by 75% over 68°F developing temperature.

Unexposed old film will require experimentation to find the Exposure Index and development time to get a usable image. On the TriX I found an EI of 50 and a 60% increase in development time was needed to get a printable image, not the optimal image from the film.

If all you have is a roll or two use it for display. How the film has been stored will have a significant effect on how it will preform.

A favorite for old film is HC-110. It is supposed to give less fog than many others.

For most black and white films, 1990 isn't so old.

If kept at room temperature, I would expose normally.

For film from 1939, it is hard to say. I had one from early 1940's which was fogged

enough that I didn't see frame lines. Also, films that old should be developed

at lower temperatures, as that was usual at the time, and the gelatin isn't as

hardened as newer films. 50F/10C might be about right.

Usually increasing exposure (to get above fog) but not decrease development

time works well, unless you have problems with high density negatives.

For VP about 40 or 50 years old, I set my meter to box speed, but round up

the exposure, maybe about one stop.

Thanks for all the replies! Very informative. Could I just ask though, is HC-110 dilution B 1:32 from concentrate?

And from some comments, it seems I have overexposed somwhat but there is nothing I can do about that now. These rolls are certainly not mission critical. Just playing around really.

I will buy some HC-110 then if DD-X or Rodinal are not really suitable. I need to replace the DD-X anyway as this bottle seems to have grown large crystals in a matter of a few months. The sealed bottle is fine, but the opened one is not, even though I keep it in the fridge.

Thank you all once again.

I need to replace the DD-X anyway as this bottle seems to have grown large crystals in a matter of a few months. The sealed bottle is fine, but the opened one is not, even though I keep it in the fridge.

Many photographic chemicals crystallize if kept in a cold environment. The crystals may dissolve back into solution on warming. Test on non critical materials.

Ah, right. I will warm up the DD-X and see if they will dissolve back in and then test. So, is it best not to keep the developer in the fridge? I keep all my developers, fixer and stop in the fridge as well as my C-41 chemicals and of course film (exposed and unexposed).

I now have some HC-110 so hopefully get round to some developing next week. Thank you all once again.

I agree that 1990 is not that old.

I have been playing with some Ektapan lately that expired in 1980, and presumably was refrigerated/frozen. It's taken me some trial and error to dial in both the exposure and the developer to both get decent images and tame the contrast. I've been told that this was intended to be a slide duplicating film(hence the "Ekta" in the name despite being B&W) so the contrast is a bit high to begin with. I've settled on ASA 50 and D76 1:2 for about 12 minutes. The only issue I've run into with that concentration is that D76 can "run out of steam" so to speak and I often only get good results if I develop two sheets in 16 oz.(16 oz. of 1:1 is normally fine for four sheets).

I've been through various 1990s vintage Plus-X in 35mm, and generally either shoot it at box speed or perhaps at ASA100 and develop normally. I see no issues other than slightly increased grain vs. my newer stock of the film.

I have some Velvia sheets that expired in 1996/1997. I shot them at box speed also and develop normally-they've been fine but then I have a pretty good history on the film and it's always been frozen.

In the next couple of weeks I'm going to shoot some 120 GAF, originally rated at 125iso but expired 1973. My challenge is that I send it off to be developed - to a great lab - but now I wonder how much slower I should shoot it. I have no idea how the film was stored over the years..snagged it cheap on ebay from someone who didn't say / possibly didn't know. It's sealed in the wrapper.

When I choose slightly expired color film - I don't slow it THAT much. 400 becomes 320 (because that's a proper setting in my Retina IIIc anyway) and it just.. comes out nicely. No special instructions. But, we're talking a decade old at most..

I've heard a rule of thumb of 1 stop per decade. I don't know how valid that is.

I've been shooting my expired Velvia at box speed, and I don't think Ektapan even has an official box speed. So, take that for what it's worth.

Well, thank you all again for your advice. I developed the two rolls last night and I was pleased with the results.

The Efke 100 which expired in 1990 and I shot 2 stops overexposed at ISO 25, I developed in HC-110 (B) at 20 degrees C for 5 1/2 minutes using normal agitation and the results were pleasing. Some base fog as expected but very useable.

After agonizing on how I was going to develop the 'Standard' 1939 roll I decided to to a quick clip test. I tried 6, 7, 8 & 9 mins on the clip in HC-110 (B) at 15 degrees and decided the 7 min mark produced a dark enough but not totally black result so I went with that.

I also doubled the agitation for an increase in contrast, so 16 inversions at the start followed by 8 every minute for 7 minutes, then stop, fix, & wash as normal (all at 15 degrees C).

I was a bit nervous considering that I shot the film at ISO 4 (roughly 4 stops overexposed) and my development was mostly guess work.

There is more base fog than the 1990 roll (as expected) but I think the results are useable. I took the following cell phone shot looking through the negative at a light bulb (hence the white blob in the picture).

Really pleased with the result. Thank you all. :-)

Well, thank you all again for your advice. I developed the two rolls last night and I was pleased with the results.

 

The Efke 100 which expired in 1990 and I shot 2 stops overexposed at ISO 25, I developed in HC-110 (B) at 20 degrees C for 5 1/2 minutes using normal agitation and the results were pleasing. Some base fog as expected but very useable.

 

After agonizing on how I was going to develop the 'Standard' 1939 roll I decided to to a quick clip test. I tried 6, 7, 8 & 9 mins on the clip in HC-110 (B) at 15 degrees and decided the 7 min mark produced a dark enough but not totally black result so I went with that.

 

I also doubled the agitation for an increase in contrast, so 16 inversions at the start followed by 8 every minute for 7 minutes, then stop, fix, & wash as normal (all at 15 degrees C).

 

I was a bit nervous considering that I shot the film at ISO 4 (roughly 4 stops overexposed) and my development was mostly guess work.

 

There is more base fog than the 1990 roll (as expected) but I think the results are useable. I took the following cell phone shot looking through the negative at a light bulb (hence the white blob in the picture).

 

Really pleased with the result. Thank you all. :)

 

 

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Awesome!!

Looks like you got some good results, so congratulations!

One thing I didn't mention but always have issues with is the amount of curl-sometimes I have to fight them to get them on the reel. It's equally as bad after drying.

Given how curly even fresh Efke was, I can't imagine how it is when expired. I unearthed a roll of Efke 50 the other day that I'll dust off one of these days.

As much as I fussed about Efke, I did actually shoot a fair bit of it. At one time, they were the only supplier of 2x3 sheets although Foma/Arista sell it now. I shot a decent amount of Efke 25 in 35mm-I'm not sure why I never tried any in 120. I miss it now.

I have done two rolls of VP122 using the old tray development with two film clips and forming it in a U shape, see-sawing though the chemistry,

The curl makes it hard in the beginning, but when it gets wet, it softens up.

Stainless steel reels aren't so hard with curly film, plastic reels are harder.

I guess it's a course of different strokes for different folks.

I use almost nothing but stainless for B&W roll film(I reluctantly use plastic for color, although stainless would likely be fine). With that said, I keep a variety of reels on hand and I find I can often load tightly curled film onto plastic easier than I can stainless.

One other trick I've done is to load it with the emulsion out. I've found that "reverse curling" it can help soften the curls somewhat in the development process.

I have an actual plastic reel designed for loading inside out, or outside in.

It has a sharp point that can hold the film from the inside. I have done old 116 film that way.

But now I have a stainless steel reel for 116 film.

Interesting-I might have to look for one of those. I'm always one to paw through boxes of old darkroom stuff when I find it.

I've attempted to load two rolls of 120 back-to-back on a Yankee clipper reel, but the result of that was a miserable failure. It's what I get for being cheap-I was trying to economize my 16 oz. of E6 chemistry by processing two rolls at once. As best as I could tell, I wasn't getting proper circulation of chemistry to either roll as I had completely undeveloped patches on both and other places where it was underdeveloped. Plastic doesn't seem to circulate as well as stainless anyway, and I suspect that the rotating design of the Clipper vs. inversion(as on a Patterson) just makes things worse.

With Velvia now at $10/roll, I'm reluctant to experiment too much, but I may shoot up some old Ektachrome I have and try developing it back-to-back in stainless(near EOL for a batch of E6 chemistry).

As far as I know, you don't economize on chemistry, but maybe on time.

As well as I remember, 8oz will do two 135-36 rolls, and so should also do two 120 rolls.

But you need 16oz, so that should do four rolls, with increasing first development

time for each roll.

I don't think I would try loading two rolls without taping them so that they couldn't move.

Fair enough on the chemistry point.

One of the things worth mentioning/remembering(and I'm sure most of you who develop know this) is that chemistry "lifetime" or amount required is based on the surface area of the film. 1x135-36, 1x120, 4x4x5 and 1x8x10 are all roughly equivalent in surface area.

The E6 kit I use specifies a 4% increase in first developer time for each equivalent processed when using 16 oz., and I think it advises not going past 10 or 12 equivalents before discarding the chemistry.

Being able to process two rolls at once, though, is a big deal as even at 40.5ºC you're looking at around 45 minutes total working time with the chemistry(including the washes and so forth). Fortunately, the first developer is the most time/temperature critical step and that's usually when my water bath(aka my bathtub) is closest to temperature. If I don't warm it up, it will be 35ºC by the end of a session. Fortunately, each additional step is done to completion so I just extend the time if I'm concerned about temperature.

It is now almost 40 years since I did E6 in my college student darkroom, with the recently announced Unicolor E6 kit.

I would wait until I had two rolls, then mix up 8 ounces from the concentrates supplied, use them, and,

as indicated in the instructions, dump them. The concentrates lasted in tightly sealed, and air squeezed out,

bottles, long enough for all eight rolls. I got through two kits, so 16 rolls, in about three years.

I had a bowl of hot water (with a little immersion heater, like for a cup of coffee) to add to my

water bath if it started to cool, at least at the beginning of each development step.

Dorm hot water was close to 100F, not hot enough to warm up a water bath.