Senior Portrait - overweight female - sample images?

Discussion in 'Portraits and Fashion' started by chris_m|14, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. Hello,

    I'll be doing my first Senior Portrait for my sister-in-law's daughter who's
    overweight. I've already read books on posing seniors, but I'd still like to
    see some of other people's work specifically where the subject was overweight.
    Also, any tips on posing her would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
  2. Most books I read recommend shooting an overweight subject in profile instead of a frontal pose. You might have to ask her to hold her stomach in.
  3. Try getting a little extra height, close cropping, and shoot slightly downwards. Short lighting will help as well. Weight on the back hip, body angled slightly, with front foot pushed forward (just like we shoot the brides....they all want to be slimmer).
  4. there's actually a portraits and fashion forum hidden under "all forums" forum. you might check there also. are you shooting outside/inside, both? and how overwieght are you talkin'
  5. You might have her posing over a tree limb or something she can lean on which will hide her weight. Placing the main light high above the person will put a double chin into shadow and minimize it.
  6. covering up skin with nice clothing helps alot
  7. hey is there any advice on how to shoot a "skinny" person?
  8. like David said, get up high, mabee crop tight
  9. or maybe you could swap bodies or heads in ps....or maybe you could find out if it's even a "visual problem" for your subject...or is it just for the rest of a society that trys to find a box to stuff women and men into some "norm"? hummmm - just something to consider.
  10. Another thing to try is to have her lean into the camera... it reduces the extra skin under the chin.
  11. maybe her extra skin under chin or her extra stomach is a part of her she appreciates and wants it the way she is....i'm sorry but why don't we all just start using certain lenses and vantage points so everyone looks the same....same face structure, noses and hair color and body type i mean hey photoshop can do the trick
  12. meg, I think you are taking this post a bit harshly. I have struggled with my weight off and on my whole life... I WANT to look my best in a photo, and that is all this photographer is trying to do. No one is happy when they get a photo back with 10 chins or rolls. That is not meant insensitively as I'm speaking from personal experience. It is not a box issue it is a health issue... i want to be thinner to be healthier, and feel better about me, i could care less what others think. While there are some out there who really are content with their size whether it be a 3 or a 26, I would say 3/4 of men and women, who struggle with weight would like to lose it, but just feel helpless in knowing how. I give the photographer props for trying to flatter his/her subject. There is nothing wrong with being overweight, if you are happy about it, but many people aren't. As a matter of fact how many cases of obesity are caused by depression in the first place??? what about diabetes?

    As far as posing goes, I would not try to ask them to suck in... OUCH!!! i would try the one where they are sort of lunging out like a runner pose, but not as extended, you get above them and shoot down, and have them look up slightly at the camera, that eliminates the double chin... A friend of mine did this and they turned out so well, and very natural looking, if she hadn't told me how she was posed, i'd have never known. It was a head and shoulders shot. Also if using studio lighting, try rembrandt lighting. 3/4 view or profile, or use hair to swoop around face if doing full face... hair is your friend... hides neck wrinkles etc.
  13. i'm sorry i disagree. i think being educated about "ethno - centrism" (Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. It is defined as the viewpoint that ?one?s own group is the center of everything,? against which all other groups are judged.) is what i'm speaking up about.


    an artist i know in town painted a protrait of a woman and her dog. the artist made her hand smaller and more thin because he thought her hands looked too "masculine" well the subject was very upset because it didn't capture her "true" self and felt a lot of her work was portrayed in her hands....and all the soil she sifted...

    its really very simple. we as photographers should consider our subject and how they "desire" to be "portrayed" for their "portrait" and maybe Chris M. did and his subject wished to look "thinner" or maybe not. if not, i think it is very important for one to realize it's not up to us to decide if thining someone down or beefing someone up is more flattering. Try it on some of my nubian beautiful close friends - where "black curves are considered beautiful" and they would have your ass too and i not talking photoshop sistas and brothers. If they ask then fine. But otherwise "it is what it is". Threads like this certainly don't encourage larger people to feel good about themselves now would it and certainly this is a society (although it is 60% obese) that definitely discriminates overweightness and i will always speak out on behalf of somthing like that. I don't think Chris probably even considered this but it doesn't stop me from speaking my mind either. I don't mean to be harsh but ignorance certainly can be harsh as well to many people and i think there's nothing wrong with being aware of how other's feel. BTW if this is only about a health issue than why don't we photoshop out people's grey lungs that smoke....oh i guess we just can't see that visual trainwreck....i'm just asking people to consider letting your client decide what is flattering and what is not. are you going to add legs to someone who had none? i mean the norm is most people have two....i could go on and on....and on that note we should be really adding weight to "thinner" people because that statistically isn't the norm pun intended but a thread such as this walks a "thin" line on discrimination if you think about it. all things considered i understand the necessity to use differnent lenses to achieve different results but let your client decide what that should be.
  14. I feel very sorry for Chris M....

    This is a photography forum , not a debate forum on political issues, or being PC, or any of that.

    A lot of people don't come to this forum anymore because they can't even ask a simple honest question without unhelpful posts... or irrelevant posts that don't answer their questions... I sure hope that part changes, otherwise a great site, will just continue to deteriorate.

    I hope it goes well for you chris.
  15. oh please...i'm not attacking "Chris" i'm asking people to think. it's about wording "overweight female" do you ever see "underweight" who ever - sample images? no. it's about education and about considering other's perspectives. i contribute as much as i can on here and have also had a lot of help which i appreciate a lot and i also paid 25.00 to help keep it going - and for you to feel sorry for him is a clear execution of IGNORANCE for the point i bring up. but hey that's what ignorance is - being blind. Maybe a post that said something like what to do to when someone who is larger would like to look thinnner would be much better worded. Again maybe Chris knows his sister in law's daughter is uncomfortable and if so - i'm sorry but he didn't indicate that and i don't think there is anything wrong for photographers to have some cultural and social awareness brought spare the pity party and try to understand not "everyone" despises having a double chin or bigger stomach until possibly they read posts like this.
  16. again - i also am self evolved enough to consider "intention" i don't think Chris had any intention of wording or implying anything to insult another but there would be plenty of people highly insulted about this post. yes - i do think we should try to be PC as much as we can - that is if we care about other's perspectives and realize are own are only ours but may not be shared by others.
  17. Most of the women I've taken pictures of want to look thinner, and younger - rants against "ethnocentricity" be damned. Bring on the make-up, and the helpful advice, and less of the "telling people to be happy with the way they look", I say.
  18. exactly what i mean...people can't think i'm not telling anyone "HOW TO FEEL" or "to be happy w/ themselves" i'm suggesting people to use some deeper thinking and consider as to what your client again go look up the word alec....and everyone else who doesn't get ethnocentrism..... and anyway i think Chris has gotten lots of advice here such as:

    hide a big girl behind a tree
    suck in her stomach (what ever)
    cover up her skin in nice clothing
    have her do some "runner's pose"
    and go tight in on her face.......

    everything short of throughing another body w/ her head or a tarp over her OR asking her to turn inside out....because obviously to these people being larger is something to be covered point exactly that possibly the subject is quite comfortable w/ not leaning over a fricken tree branch or hiding "who" she is but i'm sure in your world you can't consider that evidently...i'm not attacking Chris and again undertand this is a skill to have too when clients request it but it seems that didn't occur to anyone on here....then again IQ had nothing to do w/ joining did it or throughing down 25.00? again if the subject requests this fine but i have trouble w/ the wording so i will defend my stance and views.
  19. oh and btw:

    "I feel very sorry for Chris M.... I hope it goes well for you chris." i hope is GOES WELL for the overweight subject too...that is mabye you Chris might have nothing to shoot if all here "broad body parts" are to broad to shoot...maybe chris can explain that they all need to be covered up and see if that helps her self esteem - maybe there's a reason so many women hate how they feel about themselves maybe that picture is a self reflection of society....or maybe it will be a blessing because now Chris has a handful of ideas on how to deal w/ someone who would like to look thin w/ good reason evidently.
  20. Always use "short" lighting, and a higher than normal camera angle. Also angle the subject to the lens, and employ what's called a feminine head tilt.
    google "Joe Zeltsman" and read his classic portraiture lessons, if you haven't already.
    Skinny people need special treatment as well. The use of short lighting's cousin "broad" lighting is called for. This and a lower camera angle, and less body angle will widen a narrow frame.

    I personally find it amusing that people here that claim to be "portrait" photographers, don't know this stuff. Basic posing, lighting and facial analysis. Should be the first things learned by the aspiring portrait shooter.
  21. "maybe there's a reason so many women hate how they feel about themselves maybe that picture is a self reflection of society"

    Meg, you may be right, but I'm bored of hearing "I don't want that picture because I look fat - can you take twenty pounds and twenty years off me please?" I don't have the time or energy (or right) to argue with what the customer wants.
  22. mabee meg could post an example of what she's ranting about. and what success she's had with her thoughts...
  23. Wow. Didn't mean for this post to turn into a huge debate. It was a simple question as far as I was concerned. Yes, my sister-in-law's daughter has concerns about her weight, but what other details (height? color of her hair/eyes?) does one need to post to get a simple answer without it turning into a PC debate? I really do appreciate those (Henry, David, Tim, Michael, Steve, Eve, Alec, Edsel) who gave useful, helpful, non-sarcastic advice.

    Tim - I really like your images - especially the 2nd one you posted. Very nice! It will be both inside and outside. And she's about 100lbs overweight. (Just answering his question, Meg.)

    Eve - Does your friend have a website or anything where I can see the head and shoulders shot she did? I agree with you in that if you hadn't posted your remark about "unhelpful posts," I was about to respond with, "Meg, do you have anything to add that is relevant to my question?" I wonder how Meg would feel if everyone responded to her questions with sarcasm.

    Meg - You stated, "Maybe a post that said something like what to do to when someone who is larger would like to look thinnner would be much better worded." and "i also am self evolved enough to consider "intention" i don't think Chris had any intention of wording or implying anything to insult another but there would be plenty of people highly insulted about this post." Since you know what my intention was, do you have an answer besides something sarcastic? When I say sarcastic, I refer you to your first few responses to my question. If a client came to you wanting you to make her look thinner in her pictures, what would your technique be? And as Alec pointed out, what would you say to someone who tells you, "I don't want that picture because I look fat - can you take twenty pounds and twenty years off me please?"
  24. did the girl ask you to take weight off her? I'm just curious? Did anyone actually READ my posts? My point is, (ONCE again) not eveyone is concerned about their weight as a "visual problem" and to say they are is to overlook the individualality of your subject. it's that simple. i get sarcastic because if i cut and pasted this thread somewhere where people actually "think" about these issues it would get huge scrutiney. i guess i've done a lot more than just photography in my life so i have the ability to see beyound just the poorley worded question and answers. if you have a "visual problem" than you can treat it as one but do you have one? on that note i've shot some larger women and so far i shot them no differnent than other people because i guess they felt fine w/ themselves or couldn't bring themselves to ask me to alter thier apperance in any way. and i certainly wasn't going to say, "hey i noticed you have a weight problem, would you like me to do etc"....because i have the abiltity to not apply what i think should be the norm to my subject....i certainly won't use a lense to exaggerate any attributes either unless asked. If you don't find my point of view helpful in any way its sad that you won't or don't have the abiltiy to consider these issues. If you did have the ability you might find it helpful before you go and insult someone...
  25. and BTW - if someone wants me to take 20 years off - i will probably turn them away. that's just me but i'm a candid/photojournalistic type shooter and i find that super cheesy....i don't get that client sorry....i realize they are out there but so far hasn't happened w/ the people i deal w/.
  26. i never asked how to make someone "thinner" Chris - again really read my words....and i never said I "knew" what your intention was either.
  27. and if i asked a question w/ such lack of social awareness i would consider other points of views...
  28. " I don't have the time or energy (or right) to argue with what the customer wants."

    also there's nothing i implied about arguing w/ a client - you should give them what they want considering what your willing to do. i personally am not going to put myself out there to take 20 pds/yrs off a client....i don't like photoshop that much and i'm a graphic artist who know's a bit about it. again - that's my preference. i also do undertand there are ways to downplay certain attribute or enhance certain attributes and hey if someone asks - then i can do that. i'm just not going to apply my standard of beauty or dislike for certain attributes to my clients.

    "mabee meg could post an example of what she's ranting about. and what success she's had with her thoughts..."

    this isn't a "rant" except to people who are closed minded or have the inability to understand a different point of concern. and there is no example to post because i don't judge if someone looks "over weight" or not...when i get someone who asks me to alter something and if i decide i would be the right person to do it - i'll post results then. the only example i can refer to you about "ethnocentrism" and a perfect example of this is THIS VERY POST AND MOST of these SHORT SIGTED COMMENTS. Again fine if someone asks but otherwise they may not "always" be worried about thier double chin, bigger stomach or arms....i agree many women are but why wouldn't they be in society that treats it as a visual problem as such indicative in this post. ok i rest my case. you can all relax now.
  29. i guess i've done a lot more than just photography in my life so i have the ability to see beyound just the poorley worded question and answers.
    Well, Meg, if you're such a deep thinker how come you can't spell and can't punctuate? Please, take your high school junior ethics class somewhere else and give the guy a break. He's asked a question about someone he knows and who is related to him. By definition he's got more insight into this particular individual than you have. Your ranting has made it clear that it's you who is being ethnocentric - you're assuming everyone else is as naive as you are.
  30. i'm not in a spelling or grammer class and don't care about it on - mabye for my master thesis in Visual Communication w/ an emphasis in the Visual Culture i did...but here nope. this grew into something bigger because i was sarcastic i suppose but i also can see none of you can. and really this never had to do anything w/ Chris much and more so about the way a dialogue was framed. sigh (roll or my eyes)
  31. Chris,<P>
    Thanks for asking this. I too have a several senior portraits to take and a few are people who are larger than perceived societal norms. I appreciate the advice of the photographers on lighting and posing.<P>
    Thanks for making me realize that I should talk with all my subjects about how they wish to be portrayed.
  32. your welcome - i too learn from these posts and i appreciate you considering my point of view. sorry for the sarcasim earlier.
  33. adw


    This thread has been so helpful to many people, thanks for everyones input - shame about the airey fairy liberal types who think fat people have the right to stay fat and all that. :)
  34. yeah you're sooooo right fat people are disgusting and should hide themselves at all costs probably just as much as idiot conservative's should too....
  35. "i personally am not going to put myself out there to take 20 pds/yrs off a client" Meg, I'll bet you'd run - not walk - to do exactly that if not doing so was costing you a significant proportion of your income.
  36. like i said - it's not my gig...and i'm not pigeon holing myself in the biz either because i do all sorts of shooting. i've learned to find my "style" and "comfort" zone w/ the work i take on. while its not my choice to do's fine if it's income is fine and i havn't suffered a penny....and i'm not saying i havn't enhanced photos....but i'm not going to any extremes...again i find it not to be my style...
  37. Did we all forget that the very act of picking up a camera changes our physical, visual perspective of what ever we're shooting? You don't shoot a traditional portrait with a fish-eye lense. Did we not name a 100-200mm lense a "portrait lense" for a reason? Shoot a skinny girl from below using a wide-angle lense with her legs bent hugging her knees and see how long it takes for her to say "my "ass looks huge!" Why? Because it does! It is all about perspective- if your ass is bigger than your head in frame (I mean take out a ruler and measure it in the print) than the client will not be satisfied. All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. Societies implied beauty standards aside, you don't ask anyone with double chins to tuck their chin down and shoot from below them. Why empasis a flaw? Why do something in your posing to make them look different than they really are? The only reason for questions about posing is to avoid that, this one included. As photographers, everyone should realize that you can do things with a camera to totally change the way a person looks. Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not? Sling the degrees somewhere else and realize that photography is all about physical perspective, no matter what perspective you're after, and asking questions about how to controll that is a very valid question.

  38. Very well said ,Jen
  39. jen - you missed my point complety especially indicative by calling someone's chin a "flaw". look up the work ethnocentrism for further explanation and actually read and try to synthesize something beyond the obvious - "we as photographer should understand perspectives / lenses" dugh....thanks for the big tip....that was never my point. my point is the way this discussion was framed and treating a bigger person as a "visual problem" simple. i mean suggesting to someone to cover up thier skin w/ nice clothing or putting the over some tree branch could be quite rediculous....if you a good photographer you will already know how to use lenses and angles but some of this advice was a bit extreme and i should of lost my scarcasim and just asked readers to also consider not everyone is ashamed of extra weight in this society....but when a person calls it a flaw...well now that just explains why many women and some men have huge self esteem issues and try to reach these false ideologies of "perfection"...why don't you go read the "body project" if this is all new to you. ;)
  40. "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not?" There ya go Jen. Actually i'm sorry but you're not even logical and a bit under educated to what i'm saying. You are the PERFECT example of someone who judges people by your own standard. Stating that we must basically try and make a fat person look like a skinny person but never thinking that some skinny people would like a bigger ass. and yes i know many. go to some black communities and see how "skinny" can be looked down upon. some african american women would do anything to gain weight and have an ass becuase in some communities when your skinny it implies under abundance or drug use....not always but have witnessed these attitudes amongst close friends i have. so please step outside your small closed view....
  41. "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not" So with that genius why make them look skinner if they are happy w/ themselves.


    "All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. "

    so i guess in your world a "skinny" person is the standard of norm you are always shooting for. ethnocentrism well put. i'm glad i have 3 degrees.
  42. i just can't resist to also point this out Jen:

    "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not"

    Chris wasn't asking how to "avoid" representing her as she was not but how to "represent her as she is not". It was the opposite of your question/statement....which makes me think you don't get any of this at all... He was asking how to minimize her "over weightness" which is representing someone as how they are not. and really i do understand that is a skill for a photographer to have and a desire of many "mainsteam" women to look thin and that they equate being thin w/ being "healthy" or looking "better"..or "their best" (or really is that just what they learned from a society who thinks so narrow as you seem too?....really why wouldn't they w/ commments like this? I do understand that most clients don't want a big ass because they mainly they fear the rejection, judgement or some experiance w/ someone who treats them like a peson who is "flawed" as you so nicely and intelligently put it. So Jen, Chris WAS exactly asking the opposite of your comment which is: he was trying to represnet her as she was not - which is totally fine if that's what the client desires but as i stated earlier as most "mainstream" culture won't understand is some people want their big chin, ass or stomach unhidden from a tree branch or not draped in a curtain.... they would actually have enough self love and apprection for who they actually are to be recorded as such and not have some idiot running around asking them to hang from a tree while wearing some tarp or something. and who answered this the most gracious, simple and well put was Edsel Adams. I undertand this was clearly a question of how does one minimize something and therefore the opposite can also be "how do we maximize" something. but you Jen...treat "a bigger person" as a "visual problem" by your short sighted comment and talk about being thin as the "norm" which is pretty sad and ignorant imo.
  43. Hey Meg- take a chill pill.
  44. Thanks again for everyone's input. Very much appreciated!

    Meg - Try not to stress too much.
  45. i'm just a person who actually "cares" about my clients and tries to consider all "perspectives" because i actually "think" so it's not surprizing "closed minded undereducated" individuals would consider my thoughts and concerns a "rant" or "stress" or in need of a "pill" and as a matter of fact jen your biggest "flaw" imo by the way you responded would be your mind and Photoshop a lens or angle couldn't do anything for that not could it?
  46. Am "I" the "only" one to "notice" that none of Meg's "galleries" have "any" "large" "persons" in them?

    I'm just saying....

  47. so what is that point "jerry" supposed to insinuate? i post what i have and as a matter of fact i have several brides that would probably be considered "flawed" by jen but i haven't put them up yet as i'm getting ready to launch a new site. and really this is pointless because it's not about if i have someone skinny on my site (by who's standards?) or someone larger (by who ever standards)i'm speaking about "intention" of a photographer treating something as a "visual problem" or not according to your client's if i have a bunch of anorexic women on my site and they all wanted to be "realistically" portrayed so be it and no i wouldn't add 20 pounds to them if asked either.
  48. First off, Chris explicitly stated that the SIL's daughter had concerns about her weight. You had nothing helpful to add to Chris' issue and continued to ignore that fact... over and over again.

    Second, the fact that none of your galleries had large-figured women portrayed suggests a lot to me (see, I can read between the lines just as well as you did with Chris' original question). Now that you tell me you have them but haven't put them up, well ok. We'll wait for your new site, I guess.

    Third, your use of the term "uneducated" is disrespectful. You should apologize.

  49. if you really looked through my galleries there are women who to many "mainstream" thinkers that can be considered larger. but maybe in your opionion they are not - weight is all subjective and i guess that is my point really - it's up to the "sitter/client" to decide if they feel big or not ultimately and i do aknowledge "most" women in this society have hang ups....duely so. anyway i think iggnorance can many times be offensive and i only say sorry when i feel and mean it and i'm not feeling that way about defending my point of view.
  50. Fine, don't apologize, but think about this: at some point during your education, I suspect you had to take a seminar in critical thought and discourse. If you didn't, shame on the institution. If you did and just didn't pay attention, shame on you.

    Intelligent adults can have a rational discussion without resorting to personal attacks. It's what intelligent adults do.

    As for defending your point-of-view, I don't think anyone was out of line even if they disagreed with you. All they were saying is that you didn't bother to re-read Chris' post. It explicitly stated that the client in question had concerns about her weight. You went on and on about it needing to be the client's choice... what part of Chris' post aren't you getting?
  51. i agree "intelligent" adults "should" be able to have a rational discussion and i apoligized earlier for my scarcasim (if you read everything) which lead this down a path of debate and away from my orginal thought (which i'm responsible for and admitted earlier). i completly "get" what Chris was asking and I have explained (over and over) that it's not so much the "question" but the framework in how this discussion was emphasized which i felt was treating "overweightnes as a visual problem". I agree photographers must undertand perspective and different tools can "emphasize" or "detract" and as a graphic designer myself i understand about how line, space and color can add to general good design or standards of beauty (which is part of human existence). all i ever meant to say (except my sarcasim detracted from my point) was "i think we as photographers also have a responsibility to take into consideration that our "standards" of beauty are not always shared possibly w/ our subject's standard and it would be a good idea to explore what that might be for someone before one goes out of their way "covering" up something or "emphasizing" something...if it is a portrait where the client is paying for it i think it's a responsibility to find out "what they want" which might not be what we may "think" they want. that's it - never said Chris was wrong. I just think it's sad and short sighted to apply our own standards on others such as Jen implying a double chin is a "flaw" or as she put it:

    "All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person."

    this is an example of applying personal beliefs and standards to people and i do agree most women and men do not like to look bigger (in mainstream society) but i also am aware there are also many who this doesn't bother - it's a personal and cultural preference many times.

    and Jerry my "rants" wern't about Chris but about other's comments and many of those lacked "respect" as much as mine. and now you are putting my intelligence into question the same as i questioned other's by your last post about "critial thought" so isn't this the same thing you accused me of earlier implying it was rude? this is worthless at this point. am am sorry for hyjacking a thread at this point because nothing seems to be gained i agree now. i've tried to explain my point but it's way over the top now so be it - but atleast i'm not boring and say what i feel and try to be compassionate and thoughtful w/ my clients and actions (usually).
  52. I also don't disagree that Chris should do what his niece would like or with his wanting to represent her the way she wants with his best effort. That is great. I'm just very sensitive to how subjects such as these are framed and tried to suggest for people to be conscious not all people strive to be our own perception or subjective idea of "beauty". I did take it to another level than Chris ever intended this to go i understand and do apoligize for that. Aside from the long posts defending myself and feeling frustrated this is all i really intended.
  53. Meg, I wasn't questioning your intelligence; only using an example of what I thought was a similar approach to your own argument. Sorry if it came off as improper.

    I agree there's nothing to be gained by carrying it out any further though. Best of luck and again, sorry if it seemed offensive. That wasn't what I intended.
  54. Chris thanks for asking, I am new and learning. No question is a stupid question. I will be asking them too, as long as I have them.
  55. I've asked them as well Julie and i'm not upset he asked either nor did i say it was "stupid" yeeeshhhh it just goes on doesn't it? Jerry, i sense a true sincerity from you and really i'm not offended i can see how some of my sarcasm brought on a lack of compassion for what i was really trying to communicate. Anyway, best of luck too - and i'm not being sarcastic. I've also always been an advocate of people asking "anything". again i just had some concerns as how the conversation was framed - that really didn't involve Chris. My responses have not been too effective since i as emotional about it as i admitt i am a huge advocate of certain issues - considering my professional background. i do at this point sincerely apologize for hyjacking a thread and i think there was some good out of this.
  56. One thing I have learned in my life is that simply because you hold an opinion, doesn't mean that it is absolute truth. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but I believe we should all try to do it in a respectful manner. Being passionate about a belief that others find wrong is common (if if you truly knew me, you would know that this is a common issue in my life, so I know both sides of it), and it takes work to develop a discourse that remains respectful yet opinionated.

    Meg, I said nothing in my post to invite insult, and I refrained from insulting you. You do not know my social views on anything and assuming you can make an informed opinion after reading one of my posts is ignorant. I read your last post, and I am glad you see how emotions can over-run a valid argument and opinion and make your point less effective. I have struggled with balancing my passion for certain issues against being respectful with those who disagree. In short, I admire your passion, but please understand that insults and assumptions are what is ignorant and displays uneducation, not a differing opinion.
  57. first off Jen - you didn't write a post (imo) that was some neutral voice - and i don't need to diasect anymore so don't play innocent. and secondly - it's a good thing really that you bring up the word "truth". because that's exactly what i'm talking about when i mention the term "ethno - centrism" the core of that term is that everyone has their "own truth/perception/taste etc" so i think i'm the last person to say there is only one opionion that is "true/false/right/wrong" if you understood my posts at all you would see all i was doing was asking people to consider their perspectives of what how a client would like to be "portrayed" may not be aligned w/ the client so it's something to consider. and third - you are passively (like in your first post) insulting me again while trying to act as if you have some clean slate during this discussion by doing the same thing you tell me implies "uneducaiton and ignorance" so if "your" truth about that would be correct (although what is truth really) then i guess we are both idiots now arn't we?
  58. in your own words Jen you wrote:

    "All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. Societies implied beauty standards aside, you don't ask anyone with double chins to tuck their chin down and shoot from below them. Why empasis a flaw?"

    i assume from this framework and thought your "view/truth" would imply that a person who isn't "skinny" is "imperfect, defected or weak" that is in fact what "flawed" implies. so, i logically deducted this must be your opionion and no i don't agree w/ it or respect it and am sure there would be many people who would find that insulting. but that's just my "truth/opinion" - not saying your wrong or i'm right just saying in my "truth" i find it offensive because i don't feel or see these things as flaws but that's just me and i understand that - and maybe i'm the only one in the world that would find some of these things beautiful or "not flawed" but again thats just me.....
  59. Meg - why are you being so confrontational? I'm by no means experienced in terms of portrait photography, but it seems you're attempting to dissect a very certain and respected aspect of society. The point is, that everyone wants to look better, more attractive, more pleasing to the opposite sex - whatever you want to call it. You're making this an issue and saying it's something to be ashamed of when really it isn't; it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it at all.

    Chris M, in my opinion you should do whatever is necessary to take fantastic photos that your sister-in-law's daughter will be proud to show off. Obviously, that doesn't include covering her in a tarp (possibly the funniest of meg reul's suggestions), but don't be afraid to do whatever is necessary to take a good photo.
  60. Nathan - if you understood my posts or the term "ethno-centrism" you would understand that all i was doing was asking photog's to consider our "personal" perception of beauty isn't always another's. so, i agree it's human nature to want to look our best but what some consider "our best" isn't always what another it's nice to be aware of how your client feels because that's what is important....and it seemed in this thread most were treating "over weightness" to be a "flaw" as Jen put it or something to be covered and some people in this society may not consider a double chin a defect and so i never said we shouldn't help a client to achieve what ever standard they are seeking to be portrayed.....i'm just pointing out beauty is subjective...and there isn't always a standard...i feel it is good as a photograper to understand how persective and long and short lenses can dimish or exaggerate...and this is good to know - but i couldn't help but chime in to say - hey please consider that not all people feel ashamed of certain attributes - but i do agree most everyone wants to be portrayed their best (key word is "their)......
  61. by the way - i'm sure being misunderstood or just plain way over someone's grasp of comprehension can be percieved as confrontational...
  62. also Nathan writes: "You're making this an issue and saying it's something to be ashamed of when really it isn't; it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it at all."

    also i never said wanting to look good is something to be ashamed of - again though beauty is subjective and a photographer should beware of this - also i do agree most people don't like being over weight...i get that but i know many people who are bigger by society's standards who are soooo fine w/ a big ass and double chin...i know this is really hard to understand for people like Jen who consider it a "flaw" but that's my experiance.....

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