mreul Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 i never asked how to make someone "thinner" Chris - again really read my words....and i never said I "knew" what your intention was either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 and if i asked a question w/ such lack of social awareness i would consider other points of views... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 " I don't have the time or energy (or right) to argue with what the customer wants." also there's nothing i implied about arguing w/ a client - you should give them what they want considering what your willing to do. i personally am not going to put myself out there to take 20 pds/yrs off a client....i don't like photoshop that much and i'm a graphic artist who know's a bit about it. again - that's my preference. i also do undertand there are ways to downplay certain attribute or enhance certain attributes and hey if someone asks - then i can do that. i'm just not going to apply my standard of beauty or dislike for certain attributes to my clients. "mabee meg could post an example of what she's ranting about. and what success she's had with her thoughts..." this isn't a "rant" except to people who are closed minded or have the inability to understand a different point of concern. and there is no example to post because i don't judge if someone looks "over weight" or not...when i get someone who asks me to alter something and if i decide i would be the right person to do it - i'll post results then. the only example i can refer to you about "ethnocentrism" and a perfect example of this is THIS VERY POST AND MOST of these SHORT SIGTED COMMENTS. Again fine if someone asks but otherwise they may not "always" be worried about thier double chin, bigger stomach or arms....i agree many women are but why wouldn't they be in society that treats it as a visual problem as such indicative in this post. ok i rest my case. you can all relax now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_updyke Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 <p><em>i guess i've done a lot more than just photography in my life so i have the ability to see beyound just the poorley worded question and answers.</em></p> <p>Well, Meg, if you're such a deep thinker how come you can't spell and can't punctuate? Please, take your high school junior ethics class somewhere else and give the guy a break. He's asked a question about someone he knows and who is related to him. By definition he's got more insight into this particular individual than you have. Your ranting has made it clear that it's you who is being ethnocentric - you're assuming everyone else is as naive as you are.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 i'm not in a spelling or grammer class and don't care about it on photo.net - mabye for my master thesis in Visual Communication w/ an emphasis in the Visual Culture i did...but here nope. this grew into something bigger because i was sarcastic i suppose but i also can see none of you can. and really this never had to do anything w/ Chris much and more so about the way a dialogue was framed. sigh (roll or my eyes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davyjo Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Chris,<P> Thanks for asking this. I too have a several senior portraits to take and a few are people who are larger than perceived societal norms. I appreciate the advice of the photographers on lighting and posing.<P> Meg,<P> Thanks for making me realize that I should talk with all my subjects about how they wish to be portrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 your welcome - i too learn from these posts and i appreciate you considering my point of view. sorry for the sarcasim earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adw Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 This thread has been so helpful to many people, thanks for everyones input - shame about the airey fairy liberal types who think fat people have the right to stay fat and all that. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 yeah you're sooooo right fat people are disgusting and should hide themselves at all costs probably just as much as idiot conservative's should too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alec_myers Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 "i personally am not going to put myself out there to take 20 pds/yrs off a client" Meg, I'll bet you'd run - not walk - to do exactly that if not doing so was costing you a significant proportion of your income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 like i said - it's not my gig...and i'm not pigeon holing myself in the biz either because i do all sorts of shooting. i've learned to find my "style" and "comfort" zone w/ the work i take on. while its not my choice to do this...it's fine if it's yours...my income is fine and i havn't suffered a penny....and i'm not saying i havn't enhanced photos....but i'm not going to any extremes...again i find it not to be my style... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverdae Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Did we all forget that the very act of picking up a camera changes our physical, visual perspective of what ever we're shooting? You don't shoot a traditional portrait with a fish-eye lense. Did we not name a 100-200mm lense a "portrait lense" for a reason? Shoot a skinny girl from below using a wide-angle lense with her legs bent hugging her knees and see how long it takes for her to say "my "ass looks huge!" Why? Because it does! It is all about perspective- if your ass is bigger than your head in frame (I mean take out a ruler and measure it in the print) than the client will not be satisfied. All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. Societies implied beauty standards aside, you don't ask anyone with double chins to tuck their chin down and shoot from below them. Why empasis a flaw? Why do something in your posing to make them look different than they really are? The only reason for questions about posing is to avoid that, this one included. As photographers, everyone should realize that you can do things with a camera to totally change the way a person looks. Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not? Sling the degrees somewhere else and realize that photography is all about physical perspective, no matter what perspective you're after, and asking questions about how to controll that is a very valid question. Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelging Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Very well said ,Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 jen - you missed my point complety especially indicative by calling someone's chin a "flaw". look up the work ethnocentrism for further explanation and actually read and try to synthesize something beyond the obvious - "we as photographer should understand perspectives / lenses" dugh....thanks for the big tip....that was never my point. my point is the way this discussion was framed and treating a bigger person as a "visual problem" simple. i mean suggesting to someone to cover up thier skin w/ nice clothing or putting the over some tree branch could be quite rediculous....if you a good photographer you will already know how to use lenses and angles but some of this advice was a bit extreme and i should of lost my scarcasim and just asked readers to also consider not everyone is ashamed of extra weight in this society....but when a person calls it a flaw...well now that just explains why many women and some men have huge self esteem issues and try to reach these false ideologies of "perfection"...why don't you go read the "body project" if this is all new to you. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not?" There ya go Jen. Actually i'm sorry but you're not even logical and a bit under educated to what i'm saying. You are the PERFECT example of someone who judges people by your own standard. Stating that we must basically try and make a fat person look like a skinny person but never thinking that some skinny people would like a bigger ass. and yes i know many. go to some black communities and see how "skinny" can be looked down upon. some african american women would do anything to gain weight and have an ass becuase in some communities when your skinny it implies under abundance or drug use....not always but have witnessed these attitudes amongst close friends i have. so please step outside your small closed view.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not" So with that genius why make them look skinner if they are happy w/ themselves. and "All this post was for was to get advice on how to avoid making the client unhappy by emphasising things that aren't noticable on a "skinny" person but are easily noticable on a heavier person. " so i guess in your world a "skinny" person is the standard of norm you are always shooting for. ethnocentrism well put. i'm glad i have 3 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 i just can't resist to also point this out Jen: "Why is it wrong to ask how to avoid representing someone how they're not" Chris wasn't asking how to "avoid" representing her as she was not but how to "represent her as she is not". It was the opposite of your question/statement....which makes me think you don't get any of this at all... He was asking how to minimize her "over weightness" which is representing someone as how they are not. and really i do understand that is a skill for a photographer to have and a desire of many "mainsteam" women to look thin and that they equate being thin w/ being "healthy" or looking "better"..or "their best" (or really is that just what they learned from a society who thinks so narrow as you seem too?....really why wouldn't they w/ commments like this? I do understand that most clients don't want a big ass because they mainly they fear the rejection, judgement or some experiance w/ someone who treats them like a peson who is "flawed" as you so nicely and intelligently put it. So Jen, Chris WAS exactly asking the opposite of your comment which is: he was trying to represnet her as she was not - which is totally fine if that's what the client desires but as i stated earlier as most "mainstream" culture won't understand is some people want their big chin, ass or stomach unhidden from a tree branch or not draped in a curtain.... they would actually have enough self love and apprection for who they actually are to be recorded as such and not have some idiot running around asking them to hang from a tree while wearing some tarp or something. and who answered this the most gracious, simple and well put was Edsel Adams. I undertand this was clearly a question of how does one minimize something and therefore the opposite can also be "how do we maximize" something. but you Jen...treat "a bigger person" as a "visual problem" by your short sighted comment and talk about being thin as the "norm" which is pretty sad and ignorant imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverdae Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Hey Meg- take a chill pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_m14 Posted June 22, 2007 Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 Thanks again for everyone's input. Very much appreciated! Meg - Try not to stress too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 i'm just a person who actually "cares" about my clients and tries to consider all "perspectives" because i actually "think" so it's not surprizing "closed minded undereducated" individuals would consider my thoughts and concerns a "rant" or "stress" or in need of a "pill" and as a matter of fact jen your biggest "flaw" imo by the way you responded would be your mind and Photoshop a lens or angle couldn't do anything for that not could it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_cobb Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Am "I" the "only" one to "notice" that none of Meg's "galleries" have "any" "large" "persons" in them? I'm just saying.... Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 so what is that point "jerry" supposed to insinuate? i post what i have and as a matter of fact i have several brides that would probably be considered "flawed" by jen but i haven't put them up yet as i'm getting ready to launch a new site. and really this is pointless because it's not about if i have someone skinny on my site (by who's standards?) or someone larger (by who ever standards)i'm speaking about "intention" of a photographer treating something as a "visual problem" or not according to your client's desire....so if i have a bunch of anorexic women on my site and they all wanted to be "realistically" portrayed so be it and no i wouldn't add 20 pounds to them if asked either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_cobb Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 First off, Chris explicitly stated that the SIL's daughter had concerns about her weight. You had nothing helpful to add to Chris' issue and continued to ignore that fact... over and over again. Second, the fact that none of your galleries had large-figured women portrayed suggests a lot to me (see, I can read between the lines just as well as you did with Chris' original question). Now that you tell me you have them but haven't put them up, well ok. We'll wait for your new site, I guess. Third, your use of the term "uneducated" is disrespectful. You should apologize. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreul Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 if you really looked through my galleries there are women who to many "mainstream" thinkers that can be considered larger. but maybe in your opionion they are not - weight is all subjective and i guess that is my point really - it's up to the "sitter/client" to decide if they feel big or not ultimately and i do aknowledge "most" women in this society have hang ups....duely so. anyway i think iggnorance can many times be offensive and i only say sorry when i feel and mean it and i'm not feeling that way about defending my point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry_cobb Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Fine, don't apologize, but think about this: at some point during your education, I suspect you had to take a seminar in critical thought and discourse. If you didn't, shame on the institution. If you did and just didn't pay attention, shame on you. Intelligent adults can have a rational discussion without resorting to personal attacks. It's what intelligent adults do. As for defending your point-of-view, I don't think anyone was out of line even if they disagreed with you. All they were saying is that you didn't bother to re-read Chris' post. It explicitly stated that the client in question had concerns about her weight. You went on and on about it needing to be the client's choice... what part of Chris' post aren't you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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