Red Windows

Before the advent of film counters, camera backs had red windows so you could

see the frame number as the film was wound. It would seem this would only work

with orthochromatic B&W film, which isn't sensative to the red light. Do you

have to keep the window covered if you are using color film? If so, how do you

advance the film the correct distance?

I don't think the color matters much since my Bantam f4.5 has a green window.

I don't think a short period of exposure makes a dramatic difference. On my Yashica A, there is a sliding cover over the red window. You open it up, advance the film, and then slide the cover back down. On my Zeiss Ikonta, I have a strip of black velcro over the window. Same idea. Ive never noticed anything in the pictures. Just advance the film in subdued light.

The cameras are usually designed so that no light can go between the window area and around to the film. When the back of the camera is closed, the pressure plate presses firmly against the film-gate to create a light seal. If you hear about people covering the window, it is to allow them to use 220 film or 35mm film in their 120 camera. Many cameras also feature a door so that the red window is not exposed to light all of the time, however many cameras to not feature this extra measure of protection. If it worries you too much, just make yourself a door with some cardboard and tape, but personally, I wouldn't worry about it. If the red window is letting in light, then it will do it during the few seconds while you are looking through it to advance film just as easily as it would any other time. As far as covering the window entirely.... I would be more worried about partially overlapping frames from not advancing far enough, wasted film from advancing too far, missed photos from shooting before you had gotten to the end of the leader, accidental double exposures from forgetting to advance, and just plain confusion in not knowing what frame you are on or how many are left. Let me put it this way.... if it was such a big design failure then it would not have been used on thousands of cameras throughout the history of roll-film, which is over 100 years now, and is still used today on Holgas. Also if it was such a problem, 120 film would not still be sold with numbers on the backing paper, specifically to be used in such cameras!

"so you could see the frame number as the film was wound"

 

No. You can see the backing paper, not the film. The paper is opaque, so no light hits the film - whatever colour the window has.

I had to replace the red window on my My Kodak No.2 Box Camera with a bit of plastic from a CD-case colored red with a magic marker. It does tend to fog the film at the edge if the window is left uncovered. The backplate spring is slightly curved and if the film is not kept tight light can get round the backingpaper. I've thought of solving it with some black paint around replacement window to minimize the amount of light going round the edge.

 

http://www.flibweb.nl/flibweb/cpg143/albums/userpics/10001/normal_kodakbox2.jpg

 

Tim, Uncovering the hole to advance the film won't effect the film much, unless you do it in very sharp direct sunlight. Use a bit of Velcro or masking tape to cover the window the rest of the time and your pictures should be fine.

As mentioned by others, there is some risk of stray light coming from the red window around the edges of the pressure plate. This usually causes fogging at the upper or lower edge of the image. This risk can be reduced by placing a ring of light seal material (of suitable thickness) around the red window between the rear and the pressure plate. I found something similar on an old Zeiss-Ikon folder, the ring was made from some hairy material.

 

Usually the backing paper is sufficiently opaque to keep off all incoming light. There might be problems when exposing the back to direct sunlight and/or using high speed film. The color of the window does not matter too much.

I can assure you that you can use panchromatic or color film in (most) cameras with the red window. My dad's MF cameras had these, as well as my old Brownie Starflash.

 

I also seem to recall that there were a few which had green windows instead of red.

It shows some affect when I use 400 asa color film.

In some cases (maybe with fast film) you can see the frame number clearly on the negative which means the light did go through the "opaque" paper backing so best to cover the window.

Early b&w film was not very sensitive to red light so the best colour for the frame counter window was red. Up till 1910 or so many cameras had red bellows too but these changed to black as film became more sensitive.

 

I suggest if you are using colour film you stick something opaque over the red window and just remove it to wind on. If you leave it exposed all your shots will come out a pale shade of pink as though everything has been through the hot wash with those red socks.

i read that some of the eastern european films have a thin paper backing.

and that sometimes even the numbers show on the developed film.

"i read that ..." This is how bad information keeps getting repeated on the internet.

 

120-size Bergger (Foma, I believe) has a backing paper that seems thicker than, say Kodak or Ilford, but is much more porus; It is black but doesn't have a smooth surface. I have experience a lot of edge flashing, but never any transferance of the numbering. In fact, the numbering is so poorly printed that it would be nearly a miracle for it to transfer through.

 

I haven't done the measurements myself, but I READ THAT (yes, Walter, even I do a bit of internet rumor spreading) the leaders on Eastern Eurpoean 120 film is shorter than that of US or UK film.

I have seen numbers on Ilford Delta when I've accidently left a loaded camera on the shelf backwards for months on end.

Some (only some) of my roll-film cameras have covers for the red windows, so you only let the light in for as long as it takes to wind. This feature doesn't seem to be specific to any particular country of origin. I even have two Zeh Goldis, one with and one without sliding red window cover. My Agifold (English, just post-war) has no cover, but you can switch the window between red and green.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility of light getting through the backing paper of Efke 127 film, since many users get visible frame numbers on the negative (again, many examples on the 127 group on flickr). Several sellers of the film recommend covering the red window, helping to support the idea that light penetration is the cause of this fault, but consensus among users is that it's material, including the ink of frame numbers, offsetting from the backing paper to the film; as evidence, the frame number you see in the negative isn't that frame's number, and you get ALL the numbers, not just the ones that line up with your camera's window. This isn't my discovery: I read it in the onetwoseven.org.uk forum, where a guy (Greg Winterflood, I think) had developed an unused roll, and still got the visible frame numbers.

Many such cameras come with a built-in sliding cover for the window, so obviously it is necessary.

I've gotten some flashing on 120 film in my Agfa "Jsolette" when I use 400 speed film. It has two windows (one for 6x6, one 4.5x6) and both can't be covered at the same time. A little electric tape goes a long way...

And my two cents worth...

Make a light cover using a short piece of photographer's black masking tape. Double one of the edges so you can easily lift the tape cover when winding your film. It lasts for a number of rolls, but I keep extra wound on the end of a pen or pencil I use to mark film rolls in the camera bag of goodies. It's really no big deal to lift the tape wind and be on to the next shot. One canalso make the tape door doubleor tripple thick. I generally consider one layer enough as I keep my cameras and film holders out of bright light asmuch as possible, and you have the erd window which will cut down some of the light also, but double layer tape if street shooting and have to havethe thing out in brightlight...

OK sorry, that was closer to two-bits worth...

Many such cameras come WITHOUT a built in sliding cover too. A cover certainly doesn't hurt, but more important is how well the window is baffled and sealed on the inside so that only the small spot on the backing paper is exposed to light. Some are well sealed with black felt or baffles that prevent any leaks to the edges of the film, and some aren't ... in the latter case, a sliding cover may not be good enough because you still have to open it to wind the film.

Hi

 

I have several old cameras with red windows that are too dark to see the frame numbers. This results in great difficulty in winding to the next frame. These cameras do have metal shutters to cover the window after winding on.

 

Does anyone have experience of removing the red window and just relying on keeping the window covered between times?

 

Does brief exposure of the back of the film for a few seconds during "wind on" result in the frame number printing through or light leakage round the edge of the film?

 

I mostly use black and white but with some colour film as well.

 

 

Thanks

I have just had a roll of Superia processed. Without doubt whatsoever, the frames that had lain idle have distinct red glow where the window is. Those that were wound on quickly do not.

My hypothesis... The backing paper now thinner (or less opaque) than it used to be(?) Might Fuji think that the only 'serious' 120 users nowadays have winders with counters rather than little windows?

[Camera is a Kershaw Penguin]