Moving towards Creative Cloud ??

Discussion in 'Digital Darkroom' started by stephen_doldric, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. My personal thoughts on moving to the $9.99/month ($120/year) creative cloud. Comments or other thoughts are welcome.
    I've been very resistant to the Adobe Creative Cloud subscription vs owning the software. I have a really hard time getting my head around adding yet one more $10/month subscription. I currently own CS5 and Lightroom 5 and I'm fairly happy with the way things are right now.
    However... When I look back at what I've been paying and what I'm getting for it, Adobe CC at $10/month isn't as bad as it sounds. I started with Lightroom 3 *($150), paid to upgrade to 4 ($80), then paid again $80 to upgrade to LR 5 - all in about a 3 year time frame. Then I have Photoshop CS5, that I paid for, but didn't upgrade due to the high cost. Now I'm two versions behind in PhotoShop, but happy. If there were no such thing as Creative Cloud I would be pulling the trigger ever three years or so for a PhotoShop upgrade (think every third version or so).
    All of a sudden I'm realizing $120 a year is actually going to save me a little money. Even if it doesn't feel right. The only issue is I can't get of the train once I'm on board.
    https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom
     
  2. However... When I look back at what I've been paying and what I'm getting for it, Adobe CC at $10/month isn't as bad as it sounds.​
    Agreed once you 'do the math' and look at the benefits. Now before the pitch forks come out, there are some areas of the new plan that leave something to be desired as you are aware. But getting regular updates and better, new features instead of waiting every 18 months is a big plus. I know people who spend far more than $10 a week at Starbucks!
    Even if it doesn't feel right.​
    Ah, you hit the nail on the hammer. Lots of people who complained about the subscription were spending more money and regularly updating the software anyway but it was their choice. Now it's not there choice and that feels weird. Even if the economics and the benefits are better with the new model. We'll get past that in time while those who are really upset will move off the Adobe train. It will be interesting to see how that works out for them considering all the proprietary Adobe edited files they hold. Will throwing out the baby and the bath water work out for them?
     
  3. Its not a matter of throwing out the baby with the bath water, its keeping your baby while dumping the bath water. Corel Paint already supports PSD files, I am sure there are others. I would NOT give up my license to use the software as the agreed terms when I purchased it, even if it costs me a little more. And I too don't upgrade every year. CS5 is perfectly fine, but Adobe still taxes you by not allowing to update ACRaw, so you are either FORCEDE to upgrade, or get a Raw developer, and like you I too, and many others have LRoom for this. Another way Adobe will surely have you in a choke hold is if you let LR completely manage your catalog. If you havent setup your own folder structure, then you are locked in. There are many catalog apps that are DAM and browser built in and far superior to incorporate within a workflow. I will always manage my own files. I think LR does a decent job, no doubt. I can say a great job, BUT the DAM doesn't belong with the Developer. They are two different tasks that need to be apart to run more smoothly and more importantly, to be more flexible.
     
  4. I use both CS2 with plugins and CS6 with plugins on a daily basis. I have to admit that CC is pretty enticing at $10/month although the best reason for considering an upgrade is the new motion blur correction capability. However, continuous upgrades scare me a little bit as I am worried about backward compatibility with some of my current plugins. I still use CS2 because there are several excellent plugins that simply don't work or have lost some functionality with CS6. I am concerned that this will get worse with CC.
     
  5. Corel Paint already supports PSD files, I am sure there are others.​
    Supports HOW? Opening a PSD is easy and I have other app's that do that too. Now you have built a number of Adjustment layers, maybe you have a Smart Obejct and some Path's. You CAN open this AND edit all those layers in Corel? And FWIW, there's nothing in PSD that's useful. TIFF supports everything PSD does expect Duotone. So there's no reason to even save as PSD these days. PSD or TIFF with layers, what app's can access and edit those adjustment layers besides Adobe's?
    CS5 is perfectly fine, but Adobe still taxes you by not allowing to update ACRaw, so you are either FORCEDE to upgrade, or get a Raw developer, and like you I too, and many others have LRoom for this.​
    That's like saying Adobe taxes you in CS5 by not having Shake Reduction. You expect them to update ACR but not the host? If so, get Lightroom. Otherwise, expecting Adobe to freely update ACR but not the rest of the package seems odd at best. IF ACR is important to you, then the answer is easy: pay for it.
    Another way Adobe will surely have you in a choke hold is if you let LR completely manage your catalog. If you havent setup your own folder structure, then you are locked in.​
    So your point is, if a user does something dumb (like completely rely on LR's DAM instead of also making a well structured folder system which I fully agree with), that is Adobe's fault? Nothing stops the LR user from creating a new and well structured folder system either. I wish some people would take responsibly for their own careless actions instead of always pointing the finger at Adobe. That IS fashionable these days even when it's not warranted.
    BUT the DAM doesn't belong with the Developer.​
    Why not? I should use two applications to get the job done when one does it to my satisfaction? IF we're agreeing that part of a good DAM is a well organized folder structure, naming structure, keyword structure, why should having the ability to edit images within all that be an issue?
     
  6. I still use CS2 because there are several excellent plugins that simply don't work or have lost some functionality with CS6. I am concerned that this will get worse with CC.​
    It will get worse. Computer hardware and operating systems change all the time. I have a ton of rather expensive specialty color management products that have to run under Rosetta. That means I need a rather old Laptop for those tasks. I have one Photoshop plug-in that has to run on a non Intel machine. That means having a very old PowerMac Laptop for the few times a year I need to work with the product. But that issue is as much my fault, Apple's fault and the lack of the plug-in manufacturer to upgrade their products as it's a problem caused by Adobe.
     
  7. Corel Paint already supports PSD files...​
    Yeah, kind of. Depends on what you consider 'support'! I downloaded a trial and loaded on my (ugh) Windows Laptop, all I have in that OS. The product opens a PSD with layers but there's a lot more to the story than that! What I did in Photoshop is make a PSD with two layers. Both had blending modes. As I implied, this is proprietary Adobe processing. The layered file opens in CP but for all practical (many) purposes, might as well be flattened. I can click on the individual layers but one should consider them 'baked', you can't for example revert the blending mode (CP see's them as Normal which makes sense). Layered files with pixels that have some edits will migrate OK, you can continue to retouch them. But any blening modes are simply uneditiable as they were in Photoshop. Take a layer in Photoshop, set the blend to Overlay. Open that file a year later, reset it back to Normal or update that to any other blend mode. Back to square 1. Not the same in Corel!
    Path's in Photoshop? Forget about em in Corel, they don't show up. Not sure about Alpha channels, didn't try that. Because frankly, jumping ship is going to hurt big time assuming you are using Photoshop to even half it's capability, those capabilities are largely proprietary. They were the day you started using Photshop just like the Reports you can build in Quicken is proprietary to that product.
    In the end, unless you are really hurting money wise, jumping ships is going to be painful. Not impossible but something to consider depending on the status of your legacy PSD (Photoshop) documents. Just losing my adjustment layers (again, think of the layers now as pasted or baked separate from the bkgnd, big deal), I'd just and will just continue to deal with Adobe.
     
  8. I've been a CS4 user for several years, but I just couldn't justify the cost of upgrading to CS5 or CS6. When I got the email from Adobe on Black Friday it was an easy decision. So far I'm quite satisfied. A lot of complainers on this and other sites seem to be more concerned with the philosophy rather than the photography.
     
  9. A lot of complainers on this and other sites seem to be more concerned with the philosophy rather than the photography.​
    Ain't that the truth. Are we sure they really are photographers?
     
  10. I'd jump on the $9.99 Adobe CC offer if I qualified. I don't even own Photoshop. But if I already owned an eligible copy I'd jump on that puppy pronto.
    I don't see any real reason to object. Many of us already pay comparable annual subscription fees for other stuff: Amazon Prime, etc.
    We don't "own" software anyway, even if we do happen to possess a physical disc. We just pay for a license. By default it often becomes virtual "ownership" simply because the original programmer/publisher goes out of business, or transfers the software to another corporation and simply forgets about us. I'm still using ancient copies of Corel Photo Paint and Jasc Paintshop Pro. Corel hasn't forced me to give 'em up. But, technically and legally, they could. There just doesn't happen to be any way for them to enforce it. But that doesn't mean Corel gave up legal rights to Photo Paint or Paintshop Pro (which they bought from Jasc).
    Same with most intellectual property: books, movies, music, paintings, photos. Millions of people make copies or otherwise reuse someone else's creative property in violation of the original license. Hardly anyone bothers or cares unless some commercial usage or significant revenue is involved. Doesn't mean we're technically or legally in the right when we make copies or otherwise reuse the IP in violation of the original license. We're just accustomed to getting a pass on this stuff.
    If computers were more like other content delivery devices - TVs, radios - that lasted for decades without losing compatibility, there wouldn't be much argument. Unfortunately we're not at that point with computers and mobile devices, and may never be at that point. For better or worse we're going to see the end of the era when we could maintain old hardware indefinitely because we had physical possession of the installation version of the software. Fortunately my Windows 7 PCs seem to be compatible with all of my favorite software dating back to at least Windows ME.
     
  11. Lex - I think the situation has changed. Initially, you had to be a CS3 or later owner but with the Black Friday announcement I think they lifted that requirement.
     
  12. Yeah Lex, from the FAQ: "This offer is available to anyone until December 31, 2013. There are no previous product ownership requirements."
    Of course, that means I'm no longer special even though Adobe insisted I was last spring. Now I'm just an old prom dress. Ah, well. I'm not bitter.
     
  13. If there were no such thing as Creative Cloud I would be pulling the trigger ever three years or so for a PhotoShop upgrade (think every third version or so)​
    First, that's two versions of photoshop at best. But more importantly, if you intend to upgrade almost always anyway, then the $9.99 per month is a good deal - except when you do no longer want to upgrade and stop the payment you lose the ability to use the software.
    I only upgraded to CS6 from CS5 (and CS4 before that) because of the "scare" that the next version would only be available for owners of the previous version (wrongly, as it turned out). Now, I am not willing to invest in CC as CS6 is doing just fine by me. But most importantly for me, I do not want to tie myself to adobe in perpetuity and the prospect to not be able to use the software that I might have paid several years for and having to go back to CS6 then doesn't appeal to me at all.
     
  14. Hey, thanks! I didn't realize they'd lifted the restrictions. Considering I was about to pony up for the LR5 upgrade anyway, the CC subscription is an appealing alternative. There's no other way I'd be able to afford Photoshop.
     
  15. And just for further information Lex, the $9.99 "introductory" price isn't just a temporary loss-leader intended to get you in - it will remain the price indefinitely* as long as you get in before the offer ends.
    (* "Indefinitely" doesn't mean "forever", but Adobe is very clear that they're not going to change the price any time soon).
     
  16. Great conversation on this as I'm getting a lot out of it. Lightroom has been doing a great job on each new "major" version, so its been well worth my while to upgrade each time. Lets see if that continues, so I'm pretty sure I would buy 6 when it comes out.
    Photoshop on the other hand is so sophisticated that I only scratch the surface of what it can be used for, so I'm generally good for a several versions before I need to upgrade. CS5 to CC is not compelling enough for me to normally upgrade to, but maybe CC2 or whatever they call it, will be. But for not a lot more than a lightroom upgrade I get to stay current. So thats my thinking.
    ""Indefinitely" doesn't mean "forever"" - thats a little scarey. But my CS5 and LR5 disks and license won't go away with CC, so I'm jumping on the bandwagon and can go back if I had to.
    This is such a mental game. I'm having a hard time making the jump, but I'm going to power through it and hope the Adobe doesn't screw us later on. They could easily just spin off a Photoshop "Extra Pro CC" version that costs more and give all the $9.99 people a re-branded PhotoShop Elements.
     
  17. Take the offer or don't take the offer. I haven't seen anything yet that will make me personally interested. I made the switch to PaintShop Pro and ACDSee Pro 6 (now 7) about a year ago. However, I DO think it is time we let go of this issue emotionally and move on. This is Adobe's business model, we need to deal with it, decide what we are going to do, and then DO it!

    By the way, questioning someone's qualifications to call themselves a photographer by the tools they use or choose to avoid, does nothing to enhance your position in the dialog.
     
  18. I was reluctant to get CC as I did not qualify for the rebate. Having a student edition limited me to take another class and get the full suite at a very good discounted price of $29.99, but I would not use most of the applications on a regular basis. I only wanted PS and would have had to pay full price, so I thought I'd use CS5 for a little longer... When they announced they were lifting the restrictions, it was an easy decision to update right now to lock in that price!
    Although it states it is not an introductory price, it also says in the terms and conditions:
    After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering...
     
  19. After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering...​
    That's right, Line - but if you came in at $9.99, you'll stay at $9.99.
     
  20. That's right, Line - but if you came in at $9.99, you'll stay at $9.99.​
    I'm not a lawyer, but I don't read that into that statement. My reading is that they can charge you the current price after 12 months of what that price is currently-,meaning the price that will be current in 12 months not the discount amount. If that's $20 a month, then your second year contract will be $20 a month. That will be automatic. If it was the latter, why not just say that they will renew it at the $9.99 discount amount? I could be wrong, but there's too much wiggly room in their "conditions".
    Also, you can cancel, but you have to pay for 6 months. So if you want to cancel, you better cancel within the first 30 days. That seems to include any subsequent contract years because they are automatically renewed.
    http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html
     
  21. After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering...​
    It is a little vague and ambiguous in that the "current price" could be construed as the present price now, or it could mean the price at the time of renewal.
    However in either event,they will warn you at the end of your subscription that the year is up and of any price increases before you have to renew.
     
  22. That is very ambiguous. It clearly states after the year you'll be charged the current price.
    If you look elsewhere though and they say "its not an introductory price", but that doesn't mean it will stay.
    http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/
    So basically you have to trust they will do the right thing. Hummm... Well I'm in for now. We'll see what happens later in the year.
     
  23. I subscribed as well a couple of months ago. I would say generally, the consumer shouldn't have to read all the ancillary text in marketing literature to try to interpret a statements meaning. Could be a tad clearer, yes? If they met current, as in today, they could have just said "today's price of the offering…"
    Ah well, I'll find out in a year or sooner.
     
  24. My main concern about signing up with CC would be giving Adobe my credit card number and personal information. That's in
    light of the recent compromise that started with 2.9 million users information being breached and which then quickly grew to many
    tens of millions.

    I was one of Adobe's many customers who received a letter outlining the nature of the breach. Actually, I was a little surprised
    they kept my credit card info on file to begin with. While they have stated the breach is being investigated, and they're
    making available to their breached customers credit monitoring services membership with various credit reporting companies, they have
    yet to to acknowledge the weakness in their security practices that lead to the problem, or how/if they are going to improve
    their practices going forward with better encryption and better security practices. That's a big concern. Especially coupled
    with them rolling out their new CC business model which requires periodic monthly charges against customer credit card
    accounts.

    I don't need CC for my processing as I use Lightroom and can edit from there into Photoshop and back when necessary (which
    today is pretty rare). But if I did, I would need some kind of assurance from Adobe that they have significantly stepped up
    their security practices. Until then, no credit card number for you...
     
  25. My main concern about signing up with CC would be giving Adobe my credit card number and personal information. That's in light of the recent compromise that started with 2.9 million users information being breached and which then quickly grew to many tens of millions.​
    Based on the hack, that "seems" reasonable but lots of companies have had the same issue. You don't give your credit card to any other companies? And one would expect a company that's been hacked to work harder on security and said hackers and others would move onto other companies to hack. IOW, not sure the fear is justified.
    Lastly, supposed your credit card is used this way. Are you not responsible for a mere $50 and no more? The security problems and money lost is the responsibility of the credit card company isn’t it?
     
  26. >>> Based on the hack, that "seems" reasonable but lots of companies have had the same issue. You
    don't give your credit card to any other companies? And one would expect a company that's been
    hacked to work harder on security and said hackers and others would move onto other companies to
    hack. IOW, not sure the fear is justified.

    I expected a lot more from Adobe being a technology company with more than two decades of experience and whose business relies on customer trust of their personal and credit card information. Yes, I use credit cards with other
    companies, but so far, there have been no problems. My fear is *certainly* justified.

    >>> Lastly, supposed your credit card is used this way. Are you not responsible for a mere $50 and no
    more? The security problems and money lost is the responsibility of the credit card company isn’t it?

    Using your logic Adobe should not be responsible for putting into place any security measures, because
    in the end, it's not their problem, but rather the credit card company's responsibility. No. Adobe should be responsible for the consequences of *their* flawed procedures.
     
  27. Using your logic Adobe should not be responsible for putting into place any security measures, because in the end, it's not their problem, but rather the credit card company's responsibility. No. Adobe should be responsible for the consequences of *their* procedures.​
    No, using my logic, let the credit card companies who are largely reasonable for security and who (unless you're saying I'm wrong and that's possible) will only hold you to $50 which isn't a big deal compared to not using the credit card out of fear. But heck, fear is used as a huge motivator these days, be it Fox News or their rivals. If you have fear of a credit card being used without your knowledge, you should tear them all up and stop using them completely. But it sounds like you do use them with fear towards only Adobe which doesn't seem logical.
    Whether it's Adobe's responsibility or the credit card company, it doesn't seem to be yours or mine. But if you prefer to live in fear, I can supply many other scenario’s to keep you up at night that make this Adobe hack pale in comparison.
     
  28. Does Adobe accept debit cards as well as credit cards? If so, that would be more of a risk as there are no $50 limits. As an aside, I just heard that Target had 40 million credit cards info stolen along with the security numbers, names etc. That's more people than most countries!
     
  29. >>> Whether it's Adobe's responsibility or the credit card company, it doesn't seem to be yours or mine.

    Sure, let's make it someone else's problem. Companies like Adobe should not need to adopt any security
    procedures to protect customer personal information or their credit card details because the credit card
    companies will make good and clean up the mess, at least with regards to the financial aspect. Of course it's still a big pita for customers having to deal with and straighten out the problem when it hits them.

    So far, Adobe has been silent on how they are going to incorporate better security procedures going forward. Perhaps there are really none in the works and they're going to take your advice on just letting the credit card companies deal with future problems as they occur?

    >>> But if you prefer to live in fear, I can supply many other scenario’s to keep you up at night that make
    this Adobe hack pale in comparison.

    Nice straw man, it's not about living in fear at all...
     
  30. Does Adobe accept debit cards as well as credit cards? If so, that would be more of a risk as there are no $50 limits.​
    Don't know but I'll see if I can find out. Don't use Debit Cards, they seem kind of pointless to me (I do love getting my Amazon points from my Visa ).
    As an aside, I just heard that Target had 40 million credit cards info stolen along with the security numbers, names etc.​
    Security numbers on the card, not Social Security numbers right?. Big diff (I'd be far more concerned if an SSI number got into the wrong hands).
    Sure, let's make it someone else's problem.​
    Well it is! We all have our own problems, let's not dump other problems that don't affect us into the fear factor. It's unnecessary. Unless again, you prefer to live in fear.
    Nice straw man, it's not about living in fear at all...​
    Fine, then please tell me your worst case scenario should you subscribe to CC and someone gets your credit card number. Explain your fear or why I should fear assuming again, my understanding is in worst case, I'm stick with a $50 loss. I'm all ears, really I am. And explain how you can use the card with other companies without that fear but Adobe is a problem here unlike the Target case or Verizion or the many other companies that have been hacked.
    I'm not saying you should broadcast your credit cards to anyone or you should not take security precautions! I'm saying that not subscribing to an Adobe product out of a fear of your card being hacked while using the card elsewhere makes no sense to me. Either use the cards to don't. Why is Adobe alone the big scary company you fear?
     
  31. Not definitive but it *appears* that Adobe does NOT accept Debit Cards:
    http://adobe.knoji.com/questions/what-payment-methods-does-adobe-accept-do-they-accept-paypal-debit-cards-e-checks-or-billmelater/
     
  32. Got it Andrew. It's not Adobe's responsibility to protect their customers' information. You've made that very
    clear now...

    >>> Why is Adobe alone the big scary company you fear?

    Please, stop with the straw men. Once more, it's not about fear.
     
  33. Please, stop with the straw men. Once more, it's not about fear.​
    Then can you explain and answer the questions I asked? If it's not fear, what is it and what keeps you from stopping the use of all credit card transactions? It's only Adobe becuase?
     
  34. Got it Andrew. It's not Adobe's responsibility to protect their customers' information.​
    I never said that. I said the credit card companies who are largely responsible.
    BTW, while mining for your personal info, I clicked on your name, went to your home page here on PhotoNet then went to your home page where I found no useful data to mine but did see some very lovely photography.
     
  35. >>> It's only Adobe because?

    Read what I said in my first post on the matter. There's nothing more to say about that.

    Your stance is it's someone else's problem, the credit card companies - not Adobe's problem or responsibility. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
     
  36. Read what I said in my first post on the matter.​
    Just did again. Still unclear on your POV. Hence the questions but you know, not a hill worth dieing on. You don't want to subscribe, don't. Whether it's Adobe's fault or JC Penny, 7-11, Verizon,Target (all who've been hacked and who know's who's next?), you either have justification for using credit cards or you don't. At this point, the justification doesn't make any sense to me despite my attempt to have you explain why. More companies will be hacked. If that's a concern, why NOT stop using your credit cards?
     
  37. Not definitive but it *appears* that Adobe does NOT accept Debit Cards:​
    They've been happy with mine.
     
  38. We're talking at cross purposes, Andrew. My view is companies should be held responsible for their lax procedures. Your
    view it should be someone else's problem, not theirs.

    If another company should in the future compromise my personal and financial information, and not respond on how
    they are going to improve the situation going forward, I would seek other vendors, service providers, or other
    payment methods. As an example, I'll continue to use Adobe products, but for the time being will be purchasing
    through Amazon or other vendors. Of course that means CC is off the table, but as I explained above, that's not a
    product that I need. If I did need to go the CC route, then that would give me great pause, as one who recently
    received the letter from Adobe about my information being compromised.

    I especially will not deal with a company who says it's the credit card company's problem when that company's
    customer personal/financial data has been compromised.

    I understand that none of what I saying makes any sense to you. That's OK with me...
     
  39. My view is companies should be responsible for their lax procedures. Your view it should be someone else's problem.​
    Not quite. I agree companies should hold responsibly. It's rather difficult to say that all the companies that have been hacked were hacked due to lax procedures but let's say that's true. What's the downside for YOU? If you are not held responsible to pay for the charges you didn't make, what's the big problem (other than as this happens, the costs of the theft ends up on all consumer)?
    If another company should in the future compromise my personal and financial information, and not respond on how they are going to improve the situation going forward, I would seek other vendors, service providers, or other payment methods.​
    And Adobe (or Target, JC Penny etc) didn't improve their security? How would you know either way?
    As an example, I'll continue to use Adobe products, but for the time being will be purchasing through Amazon or other vendors.​
    If and until Amazon gets hacked. So what you're saying is, once all the vendors you use have been hacked, then you'll stop using credit cards? Got a tip, stop using all credit cards now, in total, you'll never have to face this situation. But heck, using these cards are useful....
    Of course that means CC is off the table, but as I explained above, that's not a product that I need.​
    Now we're getting somewhere (I suspect the root of the issue with Adobe).
     
  40. I bought into CC and I love it. I couldn't afford updating PS every year and I can certainly afford 10 bucks a month. I have been using ACR heavily since 2004 and now it will update automatically, so when I get new cameras I won't be forced to use the clumsy dng converter. Since my last PS was CS4, I find the ACR updates amazing. You can even use ACR and its tools as a filter when working on a jpg or tiff. For me its a no-brainer. I bought LR at a discount with my last camera and I found the file system was just awful to work with compared to my routine, which I have used for years. I couldn't use LR just for raw conversion, there was just too much playing around.
     
  41. >>> Now we're getting somewhere (I suspect the root of the issue with Adobe).

    Another straw man, this one being very disingenuous. I said right from my first post, I do not need CC, being happy with the Adobe workflow I
    currently use. My post is about Adobe and credit card transactions in light of their recent massive breach, and that would give me concern. You seem to intentionally want to not understand that. I did not pass any
    judgment on CC. For some people I'm certain CC is a good
    choice.

    Once more, I get that if your personal information should be compromised in the future it is not a big deal for you. And
    your view is it is somebody else's problem and responsibility, rather than Adobe's. And once more, we need to agree to disagree on that.

    Don't know how I can make that any clearer. You'll have to dance with yourself now, Andrew.
     
  42. I went ahead and subscribed and yes its a bit of a risk, but I'm banking on (literally) Adobe having patched the leak and taken steps to prevent such exploits. But its a general problem in the evolving internet market. Companies collect and store lots of information that we provide to them, including the very sensitive credit cards etc. They have to take responsibility for securing that data. One, to enhance security to the highest level to prevent leaks, and 2, I suppose there needs to be very close cooperation with the credit card companies (banks) and the services to quickly protect the consumer when breeches occur as an aggressive fallback position, and then aggressive prosecution of perpetrators. Respectively I'm not sure there is a perfect "bank vault" of information that can't be cracked and there will be from time to time these breaches. The questions are what will companies do to protect from them happening and what will be done to limit and then clean-up afterwards. I fear this is just going to be how we do business in the "electronic age".
    But on a lighter, totally non-related note,I recall, faintly, about reading a Robert Heinlein book called "Friday" published in 1982, and in it, people no longer used physical lucre for payment. Everything was accessed through a personal plastic card and income was deposited into a personal account. How weird I thought at the time.
     
  43. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    What's the downside for YOU? If you are not held responsible to pay for the charges you didn't make, what's the big problem​

    I can't answer for Brad, but I can answer for me. I did subscribe to CC. I was traveling and tried to use my credit card and discovered that it was terminated. I called the bank and they wouldn't tell me why. They said I would get something in writing. Well here I am away from home and my primary credit card doesn't work.

    Two days after it was terminated, Adobe sent me a letter (which I received another day later.) Adobe told me that they had told the bank that my card may have been compromised.

    Now Adobe obviously has my email. They have enough money to send a letter by express mail on the day they do something. Instead, they chose to leave me sitting with no way to pay a bill since I tend to travel with one credit card and an ATM card.

    In the end, along with the code theft, I was left feeling that a) Adobe is a company that has terrible security, b) Adobe has no process for letting customers know what is happening, and c) Adobe doesn't care about customers. I don't think these are just my feelings though, I think many people feel them. My BIL works for a very high end retouching shop (Vogue is a typical client) and they are desperately looking for a way to replace Adobe. Not because of cost. Because of lack of real support. And I know of *no* consumers that think Adobe treats them well.
     
  44. I took the offer. And, I'll keep a machine with my current licensed copy of PS. It's possible I won't like the subscription offer sometime down the road. But, worse uncertainties are possible.
    We photographers should understand that nothing is forever. I plan for a possible future in which these products are no longer.
    While working in PS and LR, I also:
    - Manage my own file hierarchy so I can find images without the LR catalog
    - Save a high quality JPG of finished photographs, and TIFF for a real keeper
    - Save the edits to sidecar (.xmp) files that may be useful with other software
    - Move my whole photo collection every couple of years to new current and larger storage device
     
  45. "In the end, along with the code theft, I was left feeling that a) Adobe is a company that has terrible security, b) Adobe has no process for letting customers know what is happening, and c) Adobe doesn't care about customers. I don't think these are just my feelings though, I think many people feel them. My BIL works for a very high end retouching shop (Vogue is a typical client) and they are desperately looking for a way to replace Adobe. Not because of cost. Because of lack of real support. And I know of *no* consumers that think Adobe treats them well."​
    I will say that I'm more concerned about Adobe's customer support than anything else. If Amazon gets a 10 for customer service, Adobe would get a 6.
    A couple of weeks ago I had a question about the Black Friday $69.99 pricing for new purchasers of Lightroom 5. I wanted to know whether they'd apply the same price to an upgrade for existing LR customers. It was about 10 pm local time and I figured the deal would expire at midnight my time. I tried Adobe's online support, figuring if I had to be put on hold it would be less inconvenient than telephoning and being on hold.
    It took three hours to finally get an Adobe customer support representative.
    By that time the Black Friday discount for new purchasers had expired, an hour earlier. So my question was moot.
    Not only could the first Adobe online customer support rep not answer my question, neither could the next person he transferred me to. And each time, I had to start the entire process from scratch. Apparently none of the information I'd already typed in was readable by the next person.
    The discount was no big deal. The upgrade price is only $79.99 - a bit lower at the moment via Amazon, maybe $75.99.
    The main reason I did this was to test Adobe's customer support, because I'd heard some complaints. And I'm still trying to decide whether to just buy the LR5 upgrade, or put the same money toward the $9.99 Creative Cloud deal. My budget is extremely tight, so it's one or the other for the next year.
    That experience makes me hesitate to commit to the CC deal, even though it's an incredible value.
    In contrast, I got the Kindle Fire HD and Amazon Prime for my mom because of Amazon's vaunted customer support and wall garden approach, which suit my mom's needs. And sure enough, Amazon's customer support has been excellent. Mom gets confused easily about online purchases, especially the whole concept of e-books, and whether purchases include physical books as well. Several times I've had to cancel orders, or make other adjustments. And so far there's never been a problem - Amazon customer service folks are courteous, knowledgeable, prompt and have the ability and/or authority to cope with most problems.
    Adobe, at the other extreme, seems more like a government bureaucracy, falling back on rote regurgitation of policy as an obstacle to actually having to deal with the problem.
    Best thing Adobe could do right now, considering this year's public relations fiasco and apparent desperation to find a price that customers would be willing to risk their credit over, would be to turn over their entire customer support and billing to Amazon. Let Adobe do what it does best - develop software, and show customers how to use it.
     
  46. Good story Lex. Every time I use Amazon I come away impressed and delighted. They've never let me
    down.
     
  47. Besides Adobe not being able to secure our personal information I think what bothers me about CC is that the sole motivation behind it is to benefit Adobe's cash flow and not to make a better product. If CC works it won't be long before other Software companies will use the same model. How many monthly charges will you have to keep track of on your credit card in the future. How much will that increase your exposure to having your information stolen and the hassle of dealing with identity theft. It is apparent the the customer suffers the consequences and has to spend the time to fix whatever damage is done with no compensation. Then there is the possibility of surprise charges on your credit card as recently happened here in Los Angeles when the Department of Water and Power made some mistakes and the auto bill pay service customers had signed up for with their bank allowed their bank accounts to be cleaned out. Many people will pay with Visa or Mastercard debit cards issued from their banks which will open them up to that possibility. Just plan for the worst case scenario.
     
  48. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't read that into that statement.​
    I'm repeating what Adobe is on record as having explicitly said in explanation of that phrase, Alan - if you join at $9.99, you'll stay at $9.99.
     
  49. I hope you're right. Where did they say this? Do you
    have a link?
     
  50. Here is an article with something written by Bill Roberts of Adobe. He seems to go strangely vague when talking about future price increases and on some other points too. Judge for yourselves. He mentions an annual subscription but I have been unable to find and information on that as of about a month ago. The part at the end of giving Adobe license to use your images by using their cloud storage is disturbing and vague too.
     
  51. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    From the Adobe website:

    Will the cost of my membership ever increase?

    When you purchase directly from Adobe, the cost of an annual membership will not go up during the first 12 months of your membership. It is possible that the cost of the month-to-month membership will increase, but if it does, you will be notified and given the opportunity to cancel.​
    There is nothing there about any exceptions.
     
  52. To put "lipstick on a pig" is a rhetorical expression, used to convey the message that making superficial or cosmetic changes is a futile attempt to disguise the true nature of a product. Wikipedia
     
  53. "lipstick on a pig" - I believe there's a plug-in for that.
     
  54. ...I think what bothers me about CC is that the sole motivation behind it is to benefit Adobe's cash flow and not to make a better product.​
    Seems the new model requires the product get better or why continue to subscribe. And so far, there have been 2 updates and some new features (Adobe Generator) in a relatively short time. Further, what company doesn't want to have better cash flow? You will see some new features coming that are more photo centric in the near future.
     
  55. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    Seems the new model requires the product get better or why continue to subscribe.​

    That's a pretty simple question.

    Because I can only go back to CS4 if I stop subscribing.
     
  56. The web paqe for the special $9.99 is copied below. Ived copied the link. So it seems they can raise it when they renew your contract after the first year. It also says you have 30 days notice to cancel. Since they will be billing your credit card automaticallyu, they will just increase it and charge your account without giving notice if that's what they decide to do. If you don't notice the charge until the second month and want to cancel, you have to pay 50% of the balance of the contract or half of eleven months (5 1/2 ) months. I assume they won't allow you to use their Cloud for the 5 1/2 months even though you paid 5 1/2 months. I don't know what the comment "removal of seats" mean other than this was extracted from another product where they are selling to classes or business that reduce the quasntity of contraqcts for their people. Of course that wouldn't apply since this product for the special is only for individuals. So even this YTerms and COnditions doesn't make sense.
    http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html
    Terms and conditions

    VOID WHERE PROHIBITED OR RESTRICTED BY LAW. Eligible customers may purchase an Adobe Creative Cloud membership to Photoshop CC™ and Adobe® Photoshop Lightroom 5 bundled together for a reduced price. Offer valid for purchases of an annual plan, which requires a 12-month contract. This offer is only available to customers who purchase directly from the Adobe Store or by calling a regional Adobe Call Center. Residents of embargoed countries are not eligible. This offer is limited to one (1) purchase per customer. Offer is subject to U.S. export control laws and laws where the recipient resides. Offer may not be assigned, exchanged, sold, transferred, or combined with any other discount or offer, or redeemed for cash or other goods and services. Offer is valid until December 31, 2013, and can be changed without notice.
    Renewal After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.
    Cancellation We'd hate to see you go, but if you cancel within the first 30 days starting from your contract date, we'll give you a full refund. Otherwise, you'll be billed 50% of your remaining contract obligation for the cancellation or removal of seats. If you ever need to cancel, just call Customer Support.​
     
  57. I chatted on-line with Adobe regarding the $9.99 special. Below is the transcript. It seems they can raise the rate but you will be notified of the new rate before the second and subsequent years contracts become effective. It also appears that they won't raise it during any one contract year only at the beginning. There's a phone number l;isted on their site where you can verify this info for yourself.
    Transcript:
    One moment please while we route your chat to a representative.
    Thank you for contacting Adobe Sales. My name is Gavin. How may I help you today?
    Gavin: Hi, may I have your first name please?
    you: Hi; If I buy the special $9.99 per month product, which programs can I use?
    you: My name is Alan
    Gavin: Hello Alan
    Gavin: I'm happy to help you with that information.
    Gavin: When subscribed to Photoshop Photography Program you can use Photoshop CC and Lightroom 5 our current latest versions.
    you: What happens after the firwst year? Can you raise the monthly rate to above $9.99?
    Gavin: Alan, we don't have plans to change the price, but just like all of our other prices for our services and products, however the prices may go up or remain the same.
    Gavin: We'll update the info on site
    Gavin: Well, how soon are you planning to use the software?
    you: If your price goes up after the first year, can I cancel?
    Gavin: Yes, you can renew the plan after the year to continue using or can unsubscribe.
    you: I understand that there is a 50% penalty if I cancel after 30 days after renewal. Is that true?
    Gavin: Yes.
    Gavin: We'd hate to see you go, If you decide to end a one-year membership before the 12-month period is over, you will be charged 50% of the remaining amount left on your contract. Memberships canceled within the first 30 days will be refunded in full.
    you: What about the second year renewal? If the rates go up, when will you notify me and how? Can I cancel the second year's contract as well? When?
    Gavin: Yes and even the second year plan will be on one year commitment and will be notification through e-mail
    you: How many days will Adobe gove me with the notioficatiojn to raise the rates? Will I have time to cancel before the thiorty days runs out?
    Gavin: The notification will be before your subscription renewal date.
    you: OK. Can there be any increaased during the second or third or subsequent years or will the first nmonth's charge be firm for all 12 months?
    Gavin: Yes, it will renew from the the 12th month
    you: OK Thank you very much for the info. Good bye.
    Gavin: Let me help you with the direct link to place the order, Okay
    you: I'm getting this info for other people who are interested. Thnaks again.
     
  58. I am a resistor for now, and I am also a photographer and heavily use CS6 and Lightroom4 in addition to the Nik pugins. I find them quite adequate. Perhaps I'll change my view later. Technology bites us all for a hefty chunk of cash each year. I'm not ready to surrender to Adobe yet. Larry
     
  59. I hope you're right. Where did they say this? Do you have a link?​
    Yes I do, as a matter of fact: here:
    To be clear, $9.99 is not an introductory price. It is the price for those of you who sign up by December 31, 2013.
    To reiterate: the intention is not to get you in at $9.99/mo. then crank up the price after a year. $9.99 is the expected ongoing price.​
     
  60. Because I can only go back to CS4 if I stop subscribing.​
    Right. In my case CS6. We subscribers need a fall back plan. That's either go back to an older version of Photoshop or move to another product. I did test 3rd party options for about 10 minutes (Corel), going back to the last perpetual version of Photoshop makes far more sense to me.
    At some point, thinking about an CC exit strategy IF necessary, the question becomes what do you need to do with your legacy files with proprietary Adobe edits. If you are really done editing, then no worries, with a TIFF you could keep the layers or just flatten and you are done. If you feel you need to revisit editing that data, CS6 in my case should allow me to access most of the proprietary edits if necessary. I suspect that would happen +/-1% of the time, I do revisit raw processing sometimes but rarely go back to rendered images years past and re-edit.
    One thing we need to do is keep the installers around and easily accessible. I have copies of Photoshop installers dating back to version 2.5 (on floppies). Must have tossed 1.0./2.0, bummer. Yesterday I wanted to install CS5 on my newest machine (MacBook Pro Retina, which has no DVD drive). I initially didn't see the CS5 installer on my archive drive so I tried to download it from my Adobe account. No go! Couldn't find it there. Eventually I did find a DVD I burned and got the installer over to the MPB.
    We also need to consider having old hardware to run the old software! I've got two older generation Powerbooks, one that can run 10.5 and Rosetta apps, one a PowerPC (I got on Ebay recently for $150) that can in theory even boot OS9. The problem as we move foward is that we could have our old files archived and even the Photoshop installers but in the case of the newer Macbook I use, I believe CS4 couldn't be installed on it. The machine is too new!
    Lots to consider and in a way, the subscription model and some of the concerns of unsubscribing has forced us to think about how we archive our image files, the versions of software and hardware we may need even a mere 5 years in the future. A sliver lining? 2 years ago, I really didn’t consider not upgrading Photoshop as it and the hardware matures. But today I do have a plan which includes hardware, installers and the editing state of my legacy images.
     
  61. Keith: I suggest you read the transcript above of the conversation I had yesterday with the Adobe salesman regarding price increases for the $9.99 special. Then call Adobe to verify if the salesman is right or if the non-Adobe article you read in September is correct. Then read Andrew's post about having a backup plan.
     
  62. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    $9.99 is the expected ongoing price.​

    "Expected" has no legal meaning. If you took the time to look at the terms when you signed up, which I did, you would see this:
    Renewal
    After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.​

    That's in the actual legal terms for subscribing, not someone's blog post.
     
  63. English not being my first language, I understand the word current to mean at the time the contract is signed... but could it also mean at the time of the renewal? Not sure what the legal definition is...
     
  64. I believe "current" means the full retail price at the date of renewal. It the known as Drug Dealer Business Model. Start the customer out with free product, get them hooked, then raise the price. Maybe occasionally sprinkle in a little free or discounted product or paraphernalia to keep the customer satisfied.
     
  65. If you read my discussion I had in an on line chat, the Adobe salesman stated they could raise their contract amount. So their interpretation is that each subsequent year is a new contract. If that wasn't the interpretation, then the Terms of the agreement would have been written something like "the discount rate of $9.99 remains in perpetuity."
    You are not signing up for a month at a time either. You purchase an entire year. For example, if you are in the third year, and you decide to cancel after the first thirty days when you get all your money back, you will pay a penalty of 50% of the remainder of the charges for that year. So if you were in the second month and cancelled, and the fee was let's say $20 a month for that year, you would have to pay a penalty of ten months at $20 times 50% or $100 penalty.
    Nothing's forever except death and taxes.
     
  66. John Regarding the Drug Dealer Business Model, you didn't mentioned withdrawing from Photoshop. Photographers may have to go to rehabs.
     
  67. >>> If you decide to end a one-year membership before the 12-month period is over, you will be charged
    50% of the remaining amount left on your contract.

    Interesting... Just like financial institution "early withdrawal penalties" and wireless telecom company
    "early termination fees."

    At least with wireless telecoms, when a cellphone is purchased with a service plan, the ETF has a real
    purpose, to recover that subsidy prepaid by the company.

    I wonder if Adobe is becoming more bank-like and telecom-like in the eyes of customers, now that users first need to ponder and strategize "exit strategies" and procedures in order to feel comfortable going forward?
     
  68. It the known as Drug Dealer Business Model. Start the customer out with free product, get them hooked, then raise the price.​
    Just like 'grazing' at Whole Foods! Gets me every time. ;-)
    I suspect we'd be considered naive to think that the price of subscription will never go up. Then there is the US minimum wage, maybe there is hope!
     
  69. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    I don't need CC for my processing as I use Lightroom and can edit from there into Photoshop and back when necessary (which today is pretty rare). But if I did, I would need some kind of assurance from Adobe that they have significantly stepped up their security practices. Until then, no credit card number for you...​

    Same here, Brad. Don't trust them and disappointed in their lackadaisical response. So instead, I bought LR 5 from Amazon on Black Monday. And impressive, it was purchased Monday night and the dvd was in my mailbox on Wed morning.
     
  70. Brad: The 50% penalty is to "hook" people into not cancelling. It's part of John's Drug Dealer Business Model.
     
  71. >>> Brad: The 50% penalty is to "hook" people into not cancelling.

    I totally agree. That appears to be the only business purpose.
     
  72. Part of the hook is to give them your credit charge card so they can take out monthly fees and automatically renew the second and each subsequent year with no positive action on your part.
    If you wanted to be more secure as far as your credit card is concerned as well as more informed, they should allowm you to pay an entire year up-front. Then renew it if I choose before the year runs out. That's how Norton works on my virus protection software. That's a more busines and "honest" approach. Adobe on the other hand doesn't show me anything of good will on their part. Their change in business model is serious and they intend to maximize their profits and how they get it and leave you few options. Does not look cheap as time marches on.
     
  73. Photoshop withdrawal symptoms. (feel free to add your own) 1. Shakiness during hand held camera shots. 2. Difficulty or Inability to compose a shot due to mental fuzziness. 3. Night sweats and anxiety attacks worrying about missed deadlines (because you haven't learned the new software yet). 4. Feeling alienated from regular people because they just don't understand what you are going through. 5. Looking wistfully at that spare bathroom thinking what a great darkroom it would make when you go back to film.
     
  74. 6. Dreaming of the days when you'd drop your film off at 1 Hour Photo and be going home with the prints an hour later to show to your wife.
     
  75. "Expected" has no legal meaning. If you took the time to look at the terms when you signed up, which I did, you would see this:
    Renewal
    After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.​
    Jeff, if you're going to contradict, you really need to keep up - we're already way past discussing that phrase: my reference to the blog post is explicitly in response to questions about its meaning and the implications of the "After the first 12 months..." part.
    I'll say it again: the blog post (which itself links to an official Adobe website page, where the second of the two phrases I quote comes from) is a direct response by Adobe to questions about what is actually meant to early (£9.99) subscribers by "...based on the current price of the offering".

    Or do you actually think this is the first time any of this has been discussed on the internet?
    I couldn't care less whether or not people their hard-earned on CC, but I'm sick of the wilful, ignorant "I know better than Adobe..." denial being shown by some on this thread.
    So you go ahead and put whatever interpretation on CC's pricing that you like - I'll continue to accept the advice of Vince Hendrickson, Adobe's Photoshop VP; and John Nack, Adobe's Principal Product Manager, either of whom are going to know a damn' sight more about Adobe's pricing plans than the naysayers here know...
     
  76. You won't lose your doctor either.
     
  77. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    I'll continue to accept the advice of Vince Hendrickson, Adobe's Photoshop VP; and John Nack, Adobe's Principal Product Manager, either of whom are going to know a damn' sight more about Adobe's pricing plans than the naysayers here know...​
    And I will read the fine print that tells you what they are going to do legally. Hendrickson and Nack can say whatever they want and it won't affect Adobe's legal statement, which says they can change pricing after twelve months.
     
  78. "After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering."
    What so difficult to interpret? It is typical contract, in twelve month they will automatically renew your contract with price current for that day, whatever it is gonna be $10, $25 or $250, if you missed your cancellation option and you want out, you on the hook for 50% cancellation fee.
    My insurance company does it for years, around 10% price increase every year.
    Welcome to the Cloud and Merry Xmas.
     
  79. What so difficult to interpret? It is typical contract, in twelve month they will automatically renew your contract with price current for that day, whatever it is gonna be $10, $25 or $250...​
    Also not being a lawyer or playing one TV, I think what you wrote sounds correct. I don't think Adobe or any company with such a model could or would promise a fixed price forever. The price could go up after the twelve month period. If it does, the increase has to be somewhat reasonable. It's not going to double from $9.95 any time soon. So let's say it goes to $10.95. Or $12.95. Is the price worthwhile? If so, we pay like any other price increase. If Adobe doesn't provide functionality we want, we'll pass. Speculating and arguing what may happen in a year, 2 years seems pointless. Stay with the PS version you have. Or go CC with an exit strategy such that should the price per benefit ratio is such you don't get your money's worth, jump ship. I don't see anything radically different here compared to a lot of other products and services we all currently purchase.
     
  80. It's dealing with all the photos edited by the Cloud after you jump ship that's the problem. How do you access them?
    Also, the PS single purchase non-special is currently $19.95 a month without Lightroom. Why are you figuring such a little price increase next year for renewal when the $9.99 package also includes Lightroom? Of course none of us know what will happen. Probably Adobe doesn't know what thyey're going to do either. A lot will depend on the market at that time.
     
  81. It's dealing with all the photos edited by the Cloud after you jump ship that's the problem. How do you access them?​
    You do not have to put anything up on the cloud. If you did, you could download them prior to cancelation. Again, there's nothing really new here. I subscribe yearly to CrashPlan as my cloud backup. They can up their fee when they desire. If I decide I no longer wish to subscribe, they will trash my 112gigs of data and use it for someone else. If I'm not interested in downloading that data prior to it being trashed, fine. It's all about an exit strategy! This isn't new. Suppose you have Cable TV and decide you want Satellite instead. You don't want to go a day without service. PLAN to cancel subscription A after subscription B takes affect or on the same day. Simple.
     
  82. I wasn't clear. The access I'm refering too is after you made changes in the Cloud, you won't have access to your own pictures with your purchased Adobe programs. Those will probably not be able to see any upgrades you used in the Cloud as changes are not backwards compatible.
     
  83. The access I'm refering too is after you made changes in the Cloud, you won't have access to your own pictures with your purchased Adobe programs.​
    I don't understand the problem. Whatever change you make to your pictures are not locked up on their cloud. And you don't have to put anything up on their cloud. I've been using CC since day one, I don't have a single item up there.
     
  84. You won't have access to your changes even if the
    files are in your computer if the changes were made
    with updated software on the cloud. You'll either
    have to start editing each photo again from the
    beginning or save all edited photos as tiffs before
    you cancel service.
     
  85. You won't have access to your changes even if the files are in your computer if the changes were made with updated software on the cloud. You'll either have to start editing each photo again from the beginning or save all edited photos as tiffs before you cancel service.​
    Sorry Alan, I don't know what you're talking about. CC is no different than any other copy/version of Photoshop. You open an image and edit it, save it where ever you wish. There is nothing that requires you do anything at all via the cloud.
    If you are saying that CC is a new version with new and unique features you may use, and moving back a version may introduce a case where those few new proprietary edits are not accessible any longer that's true. That has nothing to do with a cloud. For example, if you make an edit that only CC can produce (Shake Reduction), then go back to CS5 you cannot continue to edit the Shake Reudction parameters because CS5 doesn’t have nor understand that new feature. However, the Shake Reduction layer is done being edited and will still be seen within the layer stack, even with an older version. You can't edit that further with Shake Reduction because by your own doing, you stopped using a newer version that has this functionally.
     
  86. I believe the plugin for dressing up your porcine photo subject is call "Pigture Perfect".
     
  87. Here is a link to the cloud storage License and terms. One thing to be very careful about is if you do not specify any security settings for the photos that you upload to Adobe's cloud they will be stored with the most liberal license which seems to mean anyone can use your photos for anything. Sections 9 and 10 cover the sharing of images. Adobe should have the default setting be the highest level of security rather than the lowest. Seems a tad dishonest to me. Has anyone tried cloud storage and do you have to set security for each upload? I use Skydrive and have to set permissions and recipients when I use it. Isn't that the idea of cloud storage that it is secure and private? I noticed while reading through some of Adobe's stuff that they still offer stand alone software for Government and Educational licenses.
     
  88. Andrew: How can you be sure that Adobe will allow that kind of backward compatability? Could future CC versions of PS not allow it in the future?
     
  89. Andrew: How can you be sure that Adobe will allow that kind of backward compatability? Could future CC versions of PS not allow it in the future?​
    Again, I'm not sure what your asking or the confusion. This works TODAY. I've gone from CC back to CS6 and the Shake Reduction layer is visible but again, I cant re-edit it for obvious reasons. One can always flatten the image and save as TIFF. Any TIFF reader would open that file and we'd see the same color appearance. The big difference is, we can't re-edit it from individual layers using Adobe proprietary processing.
    Alan, this has been true for over 20 years of Photoshop history! Photoshop version 2 didn't have layers. Photoshop version 3 did. IF you created layers in version 3 and went back to version 2, there would be no layers, the image would appear to be flattened but look like what you saw in version 3. Every time a new proprietary feature of the Photoshop (or any other software) is updated, the previous version will not have the ability to edit the data the same way with those newer features. There is absolutely nothing different here with CC other than it's a subscription and you may decide you will go back a version. Save as a TIFF. If necessary, flatten all those proprietary Photoshop layers. You're done editing using this proprietary process by your own doing but you do not lose your image or data!
     
  90. I recently upgraded my CS5 to CS 6 and bought Lightroom 5 on sale at B&H Photo. If I was just starting out I guess I wouldn't have much od choice. CS6 will do everyting I will want with the processing my images for many years. The $10 a month will go up in time like everything else.
    http://johndoddato.blogspot.com
     
  91. Andrew: If you own CS6, which you would have if you're using it, you wouldn't go back to CS5 or any previous version. You wouldn't because you own the latest version. Not so with CC. That will be the latest version. The only way to own it is to pay monthly for the rest of your life. If you stop paying you'll be pretty much forced to create a tiff of all the changes you made to all your images before you cancel the subscription. You could hope that the CC edited version will be somewhat available for editing by earlier owned CS's, but you don't know for sure. This is not a simple upgrade like occured in the past. Adobe is playing a different game where they make the rules and may change them. It just pays to be aware of downstream issues before you throw your chips into the game.
     
  92. If you own CS6, which you would have if you're using it, you wouldn't go back to CS5 or any previous version.​
    Probably not.
    Not so with CC. That will be the latest version.​
    Correct. And to do so, you subscribe.
    If you stop paying you'll be pretty much forced to create a tiff of all the changes you made to all your images before you cancel the subscriptionS.​
    I create TIFFs anyway (there's nothing a PDF does a TIFF doesn't). And no, you don't necessary have to do anything as I explained, you CAN go back from CC to CS6, and open those CC files, you just can't edit them using newer CC functionality. I told you I have gone from CC specific edits (Shake Reduction) back to CS6. The edits are still there, but baked in. You want to keep editing the Shake Reduction, you have to do so in CC. Don't unsubscribe!
    You could hope that the CC edited version will be somewhat available for editing by earlier owned CS's, but you don't know for sure.​
    No, I do know for sure, you can't edit using the newer functionality. But that doesn't mean you can't take your existing edits, burned into a layer back into CS6. Understand? There's a vast difference between not having the ability to open a CC doc in an older version versus opening a CC doc in an older version and continuing to edit it. Does that make sense?
    This is not a simple upgrade like occured in the past.​
    It is exactly like a simple upgrade that occurred in the past, as I explained with the using the layers analogy between version 2 and version 3 (NOT CC, the really old versions).
    Adobe is playing a different game where they make the rules and may change them.​
    The only difference is once you stop paying, the current version stops being accessible but you can take those images back to older versions. I've done it. Heck, if you've finished editing all those legacy images anyway, what's the big deal about opening them in an older version to do (what?) print them or such. The difference in this game is you continue to pay to use the latest version which isn't all that different from the past in terms of accessibility of your data.
    I have images from CC I could open in a 10 year old copy of Photoshop! Continue to edit them with the same functionality as CC? No, that's not going to happen.
    You seem to confuse accessing your legacy images with editing your legacy images. IF you want to continue to use the latest proprietary Adobe technology to edit your images, you have to continue to pay Adobe. That's NOT the same as accessing that data. Understood?
     
  93. Andrew: For someone like yourself, who makes a living training people on Photoshop and Lightroom, of course it makes sense for you to be on CC and too support it 100%. For you and professionals, the monthly fee becomes just another cost of doing business like an office rental that you can write off on your taxes. So I understand your defence of the new situation.
    But for amateurs like myself, getting locked-in to pay a fee every month for the rest of our lives is a little too much. But I understand your position and wish you much success.
     
  94. After you subscribe you will receive a short survey. I strongly recommend everyone fill it out. One very important question is how often do people usually upgrade. I work in marketing research and can assure you that companies act upon results from those surveys. The cost of the subscription in the future will more than likely include a calculation to reflect what people currently spend on average yearly. The greater the average delay in upgrading is, the lesser amount of money monthly...
     
  95. Andrew: For someone like yourself, who makes a living training people on Photoshop and Lightroom, of course it makes sense for you to be on CC and too support it 100%
    Alan, let me be clear to you and others. The new subscription model isn't my first choice or preference by a long shot! There are some advantages and disadvantages to the new model. My posts have attempted to explain the facts about methods in which the new model does change our options & workflow without FUD. Hence the exit strategy concept. I hope I've made clear that moving to CC doesn't lock your files anywhere on the cloud. That you can go backwards to older versions of Photoshop or even another product but there will be limitations so plan accordingly. Much of the move to a subscription doesn't change any of these issues we've faced over the years. Some do.
     
  96. I don't know if I missed a similar comment above but saying "Photoshop" and "Creative Cloud" in the same sentence is not entirely true. Yes, you can store your images in the cloud but you can't use any computer device anywhere in the world and use CC. You have to download the software on that device first before CC is functional. Before being considered truly cloud based, Adobe will have to figure out how to chop CC up into smaller, web-sized applets that can be utilized by the subscriber on command on any device, anywhere. If adobe is able to do this, the functionality of CC would be just be too great for me not to subscribe.
     
  97. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    Every thread I open here is an argument
     
  98. Argument: a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
    : a reason given in proof or rebuttal : discourse intended to persuade (we do get plently that here) : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion​
    In many casse Eric, there's no reasoning in the argument, proof or coherent premise. Instead, what we are witnessing are rants.
     
  99. Adobe CC at $10/month isn't as bad as it sounds​
    If it only ends there. This is the hook you swallow.
    I only read the first couple posts, so this doens't reply to the entire thread, BUT....
    There are no direct competitors for CC/Photoshop. Once you're on, with added features to get used to in one year...(I would be surprised if they go for a full 2 years), but some update will warrant them to up the price and soon enough they are like a cellphone provider, except this time there is no competition to help keep the price down. What will you save in the long run? to RENT.

    No thanks.
    Having said this, I am certain folks that have a hard time paying the chunk for CS5 or CS6 Photoshop, will adopt this method, and sadly pave the way to making RENTAL of software from ADOBE the way to go.
    I advise those folks not wanting to fork over $500+ to go online and PURCHASE older versions of Photoshop and every year put some $ towards an upgrade. You will own the program, and you really can argue both ways of the features you gain or lose,(individual useage varies) as the core of it (at least 8bit, and some newer versions at 16bit) is really comparable(Hush, I said user dependent). For many updates, they have taken over what Plugins help do. Yes of course this is only partly true as there are a number of speed, and structural improvements..But I(me personally) don't find the gains of them to be great enough to RENT over PURCHASE.
    Furthermore, if I could make such an analogy...
    CAR/SOFTWARE PROGRAM
    bare with me a bit...
    I would rather buy a solid car free to do what I want with it and own it, than one that I would rent, and make sure I don't make any alterations or usage changes and then trade in every 2 years just for a new model WITH THE POSSIBILITY THAT IT MAYBE LESS RELIABLE, AND MORE COSTLY.
    Newer cars all need to be up to snuff on the emissions and all new licensing laws and such that you have to agree on in order to drive. If you own a car that is older, you are free from such laws. Yes the cost of gas is more for these cars(cost of PC power), but the trade off point for computers to software performance is the USERS ADVANTAGE as of now, and likely pretty long time to come.(5 plus years at least).
    I actually own a newer car as the trade off to gas price doesn't make much sense. So even leasing one makes sense to some users...
    For computer technology its the reverse.I also find the fact that I never did upgrade on every update of Photoshop, as I rememeber each initial release had issues. And not a lot to offer. So I would do it every other year or so. This would not be an option, and nor does it mean the price would be reflecting features and updates any longer. But I think the monthly price of $9.99 is at best 1 or 2 years. That's already $240 for 2 years (more than the $199 upgrade price). Yes, sure the initial cost is not figured in. See above suggestions.
    The above is my take on it, and I'm sure there are plenty arguments to oppose this. But I think this is true for me and I think many other folks.
    If the analogy doesn't fit you, skip it :)
     
  100. Phil, technically, the own/rent analogy doesn't apply. We purchase a license to use the software. That's all. Even if we possess a disc containing the program, we only own the physical disc, not the software on it. Adobe, like most software companies, can revoke the license at any time for violation of the agreement or any other stipulated reason.
    And if your copy of the physical disc contains a program that must be registered online, the company that owns the intellectual property may be able to revoke the license and decline to allow users to continue using the software.
    Yes, there are workarounds. Many folks continue to use programs they purchased even after the original license agreement has expired or been revoked. Technically this is a violation of the contract, although this is seldom enforced other than for commercial or institutional licenses. But it doesn't make private users technically "right", and they don't "own" the software.
    There are open source and alternative programs available for folks who prefer to avoid the legal technicalities of these licenses for intellectual property. But if those alternative were as good as Adobe and offered the same high level of functionality, without imposing the same licensing contracts and efforts to prevent piracy, then Adobe wouldn't exist as a viable business.
    And it's pretty clear from Adobe's recent aggressive pricing to encourage folks to try the cloud based option that they are trying to be competitive and responsive to the market. I have a few concerns about Adobe - primarily their customer support, and of course the security vulnerability exploited this year - but I have no complaint about their pricing, cloud service, licensing or functionality because I am free to choose any other software that suits my needs - if such a thing exists. And if it existed and was of equal or better value, I'd be using it. My complaints about functionality are primarily due to user error - my own lack of understanding about how some things work, mostly because I didn't bother to read the tutorials suggested by other experienced folks.
     
  101. Adobe, like most software companies, can revoke the license at any time for violation of the agreement or any other stipulated reason.​
    The agreement can't change. That is one of the differences. And I think it is a major one. The revoke I have not see in the 20+ years of any software usage, and I used A LOT. I can't imagine a company that has no interest or has dropped support of a software make the effort to reek havoc on a license holder's use just so they revoke it. Doesn't make sense. I'm sure you know the reasons why it does and how it has happened.
    Yes opens source is great, but there are others you can pay for. There are a number of programs I own and can run from ages ago. Bless the ability to purchase vs RENT. Your milage may vary.
    And it's pretty clear from Adobe's recent aggressive pricing to encourage folks to try the cloud based option that they are trying to be competitive and responsive to the market. I have a few concerns about Adobe - primarily their customer support, and of course the security vulnerability exploited this year - but I have no complaint about their pricing, cloud service, licensing or functionality because I am free to choose any other software that suits my needs - if such a thing exists.​
    They already have over 1M people signed on. Do the simple math on that (without the Suite) over the year. And that's the minimal. Off one program from the suite.
    They don't have to do much.
    But once the hook is on, its up to them how long they let the line go until they need to yank on it every so often.
    Their customer support? In the 20 years I have used them, I think I had to do a few license related issues, and some patch updates.....What support are you expecting? If you have concerns, you should be worried about your ability and all the glitches when using CC-CS.
    Their security vuknerability? Really? They are the only company this happens to? Target was just a recent victum of a country full of people, and thats at the store! This is not the users concern as long as they take some sensible measures. Never use your real info online, until you have to. rather simple. A practice done by most people if they knew how to use a BBS system over 2400baud lines in the days. :) Ok, Ok, but just shred, and don't fill out game prizes and answer every email you get...Ummm, what else can I say. Use a card that insures your funds. Most do.
    Its a great reason for the insurance companies to raise rates and keep interests high. I donno?

    This is the time I have reinstalled my "beloved" (As Andrew likes to say) Corel programs. I will also install Gimp. I use PS for very specific reasons. If I can replicate the few things, I can surely avoid it and the CC.
    My complaints about functionality are primarily due to user error - my own lack of understanding about how some things work, mostly because I didn't bother to read the tutorials suggested by other experienced folks.​
    Its a complex tool and so many ways to do the same thing, so take it on as you need it, and put those tasks you need to do into practice. Its the best way I have found to learn it.
     
  102. I guess we have 2 like topics running on different threads :)
     
  103. If it only ends there. This is the hook you swallow.​
    This is so simple, I can't believe this debate continues. Either the price benefit ratio of subscribing and the possibility of an increase is a worthwhile investment to YOU or it isn't. We're talking about a tool. The tool either makes you money or it doesn't. Even if it doesn't, only each person can decide if the cost is worthwhile. At $10 or $30 a month. Those that find the product worthwhile will pay for it. Those that don't will continue to bitch&Moan and post about this infinitum.

    Are any of these people complaining about this possible fee increase business people? If so, the answer should be pretty simple, continue to pay and use the tool or stop. Adobe could change $100 a month and for some, we'd make that back on less than an hour's work using the product! If you flip burger's to make the rent, chances are, $10 isn't going to be a worthwhile cost to use the tool so don't. As simple as that. And all you photo business people out there, you never increase your feels or cost of expenses and pass that onto your customers? Sounds like a recipe for failure, can't think of too many compaines that work that way. You wouldn’t die to have a business model Adobe has setup for your customers? IF I can supply customers a hook and they are happy to pay for the tool/service, wonderful for both parties.

    I could charge $20 for a custom profile like some others out there. I will not even if it means I'd get 3X the customers. I'd still lose money compared to my current pricing. The fee is either worthwhile or it isn't and I go out of my want to make it worthwhile to those that understand what they are getting.
    Interesting to note those who complain the most and loudest are those who apparently can't justify the cost of doing business with the tool under discussion here. Or can't offset the increase in fees. What do you do when the cost of ink/media, PC cards, lens go up? And it's interesting that the most vocal complaints on these fees seem to come from those who also complain about the difficulty of using the products, almost always based on their incorrect understanding of how the products work. And when shown they are using the product incorrectly, with factual posts illustrating this, they just ignore those facts and continue to Bitch&Moan about it. Very telling in my book.
    Move on gang. Either subscribe and make money with the tool or don't subscribe. Speculating about a price increase is pointless, it will happen and at that point, pay or don't. It's a personal and business decision and no matter what FUD is posted, it will not alter my bottom line of which is unique to me as it is to you. Now where can I find a gallon of gas at $.50 like it was when I was 16.... Otherwise I think I should stop driving and buying gas. Wonder how that would affect my business in a negative way.....
     
  104. I said earlier that for professionals who can write
    this off, it's just another cost of doing business.
    However, for non professionals, who have been
    loyal to the Adobe products and supported them for years, there is a feeling of
    being a sucker. When people feel betrayed, and find the people that they supported with their hands in their pocket,they
    react accordingly. Certainly you can understand
    their point off view as well.
     

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