Making a living off photography?

Are their any people here that do photography full time?

 

Do you have any good advise to give someone starting out in nature

photography? How do you show your work/get work? Any good books? Any tips will

be appreciated.

 

Thank You

<i>Do you have any good advise to give someone starting out in nature photography?</i>

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You have to become a specialty brand, and do a lot more than produce just some nice photographs. Publish or perish. Get aligned with other entities and publications, and get known for your images <i>and other work</i> related to a particular topic, style, movement, or area of interest. If it doesn't have mass appeal, it won't feed you.

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I had a chance just the other day to pick Moose Peterson's brains on this very subject while he was <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00MpAB"><b>giving one of his latest presentations</b></a>. Say what you will about his photography, or his Nikon evangelism - he understands the diverse ways in which he has to stay connected to the wider economy in order to make a living at this. He indicated that his stock photography "could pay the bills," but that the only way he can get into more interesting stuff is to have his hands in a lot of other activities, publications, partnerships, etc.

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I'd recommend one of his two-hour talks if you're new at this and he happens to be in your area. There are lots of other inspirational pro nature photorgraphers out there. But there are literally hundreds of thousands of the rest of us who would be worse than paupers if we just decided that was what we were going to do to feed ourselves next month. Business plans, connections, and a known audience that <i>spends money</i> is key. And there is a LOT of competition - including that from people who <i>don't care</i> about earning a living from that work. And that's pretty hard to compete with! You need to cover ground that the weekend warriers can't or won't, and then you need to produce images that are better than <i>anyone else's</i>, and then you need to have the business, marketing, and finance accumen to realize that the actual photography is only about 5% of the work you'll be doing in your new 80-hour work week.

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Not trying to be discouraging, here - just a little reality check! There's a reason that most people, on doing some analysis, choose NOT to become full-time pros - even if they have the skills, the equipment, and the cash flow. Just try getting health insurance on your own after you mention that you hang off of icy cliffs for a living, taking pictures of angry mountain goats.

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Good luck! I mean that. But saddle up to some pros who've done it for a while, and REALLY think about how they lead their lives - it's pretty sobering. And wonderful.

By the way: if you want to talk to some full-time, professional photographers that deal routinely with challenging environments, dangerous subjects, crazy deadlines, shoestring budgets, and who SHOULD be licensed to carry and use a tranquilizer gun in case something ferocious gets too close... check out the wedding forum.

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I only partly jest. Full-time photographers need to have lots of skills beyond just the technical and creative talent. Wildlife photographers need to be serious biologists, geologists, meteorologists and survival experts. Wedding photographers have to be behavioral psychiatrists, social workers, fashion experts, anthropologists, diplomats, and have skin thicker than a rhino. It's not a spurious comparison. And BOTH of them have to be self-motivated business people and marketing powerhouses, or none of the rest of it will make a difference.

I'm not paying all the bills with photography but I work more than full time at it. I agree with Matt 100%. If I were you, and you really are interested in photography, first ask yourself why, then MAKE time to attend a business class, and figure that out first, or at least as you improve your photography, build your business sense.

 

Something else to consider. Before you go trying to make it big by contacting people who buy photographs you better have a few hundred stunning images. It would be a bummer if you manage to get your foot in the door and the editor finds out that you have 5 great shots. Youre sunk because once that door is open, its up to you to step through and if you let yourself out of the bag to early (not enough depth), you wont have enough material to keep them happy -- keep in mind there are 5 guys right behind you just itching to get their foot in the door, so you better be ready and you better be ready to work harder, stay longer, and sleep less.

 

One more thing, if you have a huge bank roll and a full time, well paying job, it makes building a photography carrier possible. . .

 

Good luck and tell us how it goes. . .

"Are their any people here that do photography full time?"

 

me (among others).

 

"Do you have any good advise to give someone starting out in nature photography?"

 

It's ahrd to think of amore croiwded and harder way to make a living from photography than by being a nature photographer.

 

marketing advice: if you are in the USA I highly recommend you take a couple of days and attend the "PDN On The Road with The Santa Fe Workshops' seminars --http://www.pdnontheroad.com -- that have 5 more dates between now and December. Best $235.00 I've spent on marketing advice. I went to the first one held last week in Atlanta.

 

Or if you have the time and more money one of the weeklong marketing seminars put on by the Santa Fe Workshops in Santa Fe.

I love this statement;

 

"One more thing, if you have a huge bank roll and a full time, well paying job, it makes building a photography carrier possible. . ."

 

I would not call that good advise, unless you yourself is poor. I have yet to see a rich man blazing a trail up the Chattooga River. I have seen those people at the roadside parks.

 

People, I said a living, not getting rich. Moose Peterson is RICH! He makes his living off seminars and outings, he does not even need his stock. I also doubt he has to buy any equipment. He shoots with a D3?! I dont want to be Moose, I personally think there are a lot here that are better than Moose.

 

To me 15-20 grand a year is a living. My camera equipment is worth more than my car! I love the outdoors. Caught my first cottonmouth at the age of 10, canebreak rattler at 12 and 4' gator at 13. I know nearly every plant and animal species in my state, common and latin. That is love. I would think love like that would mean a little more than a huge bankroll!

<i>I personally think there are a lot here that are better than Moose.</i><p>I think that this is a naive statement that ignores a lot of what was said above. Moose Peterson is obviously a very savvy businessman, and that has a lot to do with success. Go back and read the first response here, it was all laid out there, maybe you skipped it. You can't just take good photos, you have to understand marketing, running a business, dealing with people. You seem to distill it down to the quality of photos (and hopefully you have quite a few more than what you show on the web) when that is just one piece of it. You have to do a whole lot more than that to succeed.<p>I would say that I spend more time dealing with clients and related people in various capacities, dealing with transportation and equipment, dealing with post-processing, dealing with captioning, filing, archiving than I do shooting. I get work because I'm on-time, deliver on-time, and deliver a quality product, which is a lot more than just photos. I don't do nature photography, but business is business, and the issues are the same.

"Do you have any good advise to give someone starting out in nature photography?"

 

Marry someone with a good fulltime job and benefits.

Jeff Spirer, I think you took me wrong. I did read Matt's post and they were helpfull. About Moose, he is a great photographer but even better business man.

 

Jeff, you said,

 

"I get work because I'm on-time, deliver on-time, and deliver a quality product, which is a lot more than just photos."

 

What I am asking is how did you get the jobs to begin with? How did you get started? Everyone has to start at the bottom, even the rich guy with the fat bank roll.

 

Did you all start with a porfolio and send your work to magizines/newspapers? Did you start with a website? These are the questions I have. How did you get started?

 

So far all the answers have been a little on the negitive side and not at all what was asked. I already know it is a dog eat dog world.

 

And yes, I have thousands of photos. I would like to learn a little more on the business end before I go pasting them all over the internet.

Derek: Moose Peterson may be many things, but "rich," by any objective measure, isn't one of them. Right after 9/11, he was at a point where, as he put it, "You couldn't GIVE away images of North American mammals." He was close to selling off some lenses to make ends meet... which is what happens to EVERYONE that makes a living off of essentially NON-essential things (like lovely nature photographs) when the economy turns a different direction.

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You think earning $20k is a living? That's barely hand-to-mouth, if you consider that you'd be completely out of work (going after those gators, etc) if you broke a leg or became seriously ill. What about if your gear gets ripped off or lost in a flood (hint: you're usually screwed, insurance-wise on flood losses)? Are you completely redundent on bodies, lenses, storage, grip/pods, 'net connectivity, and the rest? Do you realize what it costs to get you and all of your gear, insured, outside of the country, or to Alaska, etc? How about transportation - is it utterly reliable?

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I'm not picking on you. I just want you to think about what it means to make a commitment to a paying project - with your livliehood on the line - and be skating on thin ice. There isn't any wiggle room at all in that line of work unless you've got at least a year's pay socked away. When someone mentions having a bankroll, they're talking about what EVERYONE needs before launching their own business... some fall-back for the inevitable trouble and unexpected business expenses, and a Plan B for when this turns out to be the year that, simply, nobody happens to want what you're selling, no matter HOW good a shot it is of what you happen to have spent the last three months capturing. And the people who really want to commission work from, or give assignments to pros? They're not just looking at the finished work in a portfolio. They want to know how reachable you are, how able you are not to be distracted the week of a critical shoot by a broken-down car or a cell phone that dies, etc. There just isn't room when you gross $25k/year to make ANY prospective customer very comfortable with putting something (with a deadline) in your lap. They want to see a well-oiled, reliable, service that appears to have (and ACTUALLY has) all of its bases covered. That's what secures the bigger-ticket business in ANY line of work, and provides for your overhead.

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But whatever you do, don't evaluate this marketplace or your competition by assuming that people like Peterson are "rich." He's a middle-class guy like most of us, and has produced a reputation that encourages Nikon to LOAN him equipment. He DOESN'T HAVE a D3 right now. They took it back from him, just like they did from everyone else that took a test drive. And he'll be buying gear from Nikon just like the rest of us schmoes - even if he does get a better deal in exchange for working his butt off for long nights in front of dark rooms full of people explaing what DoF is for the 10,000th time. Ellis is right - take a couple of seminars and rub shoulders with folks like that - it will provide some very constructive perspective.

Matt, can you tell me how you got started? Who gave you that break and hied you and why?

Matt is right on! And I'll bet you every guy that makes real money has a different story about how they got started. It involves persistance a pile of great images and the capacity to continue to deliver, and a very good network. I think you have to get "lucky" or catch a break. The way to do it is to build a network of people, word of mouth and those people who know people are your best bet. . .

 

I'll give you this much, buy john shaws book about building a nature photography business, it's an older book but much of it still applies. . . Read that book 5 times and do what he tells you to do, then come back and re-read Matt's posts. . . .

Derek: Ah ha! My point exactly. I'm NOT trying to do this as my sole, full-time income, for all of the exact reasons that I've cited to you. I'm maintaining an income by other means, and building up both a body of work and the networking/business sense to POSSIBLY see it adding noticeably to, or becoming my main way to stay fed. So, it can feel like I'm working two jobs and going to school, and that's the way it has to be.

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My primary cash flow, photographically, comes from being around people who are doing something a little (these days) out of the ordinary, and being willing to get out into the thickets, the mud, the poison ivy, and get the shots. If you peek at my portfolio here, you'll get a sense of it. But the reason there is ANY money moving around is because there are people with a passion for what it is that I passionately photograph. It can be harder to make that connection in "normal" wildlife mode.

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I'm working to produce things that appeal to a (very!) specific audience. As I circulate among those folks, I get approached to do more - and ever more specific - work. Next thing you know, I've got requests to put a shot in a calendar, or to spend a day in the woods trying the patience of a dog that would rather be looking for woodcock. And the next thing you know, there's someone in an only somewhat-related pursuit who likes my visual sensibilities, and gets me involved in something unexpected (but usually just as muddy).

Derek

 

I just graduated college in May myself with a unrelated degree and am trying to figure out how to start a photography business for myself. So far I have not gleaned much good advice from this discussion and am still wanting more. I have always considered myself a self starter but have had a hard time finding business. I get jobs that pay but its a check to check living. I look through alot of the images on my hard drive and wonder when I will find someone to buy them all. I am a nature photographer that will do anything freelance though...

 

Good luck bro,

 

Nick

"So far I have not gleaned much good advice from this discussion"

 

you must be kidding. . .

<i>What I am asking is how did you get the jobs to begin with? How did you get started?</i><P>I shoot very specific stuff, make sure people who would buy it know about it, and make myself easy to work with. The big difference between what I do and someone starting out in nature photography is that what I do has time value. Most nature photography doesn't have that, it is hard to find people shooting unique things. I shoot events that happen, which means that it won't happen again. What I would recommend is look for things that have as much of a time basis as possible - changing habitats, ecological problems, etc. Another photo of a bear fishing in Alaska isn't going to find a huge market because there are so many already.

Tony, this is not really good advise. All I have heard here is reasons to not get into this field. But you did help with John Shaws book. Thanks, I will have to get that.

 

Tony, maybe you can tell myself and Nick how you got your first break. Photo contest, magizine? Nevermind, I guess I will get Johns book and figure it out on my own.

<i>All I have heard here is reasons to not get into this field. </i><p>Where? You haven't been listening if that's all you've heard. Everyone gave you realistic advice, which can be harsh at times, but that's what they gave you. If you don't want to hear reality, don't ask the question, and, even more importantly, don't write off the people who respond. It's a good way to make sure nobody wants to respond in the future, whatever your questions.

Derek: You're confusing not hearing what you were hoping to hear with hearing what you NEED to hear. What you're being told isn't negative or positive, it's simply the truth. If that feels negative to you, then you just need to digest it for a little while longer. You're looking for shortcuts on a trip where there simply are no shortcuts. Understanding that making a living in this particular sector of a highly competitive, generally unrewarding (financially) area is impossible for most people and at the very least difficult for the rest... that's NOT negative information.

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You ARE being given the one shortcut that you most need and which will save you considerable time and thrashing around. Specifically, you must see this as a business, and form a business plan that involves absolutely zero kidding yourself about the bottom line. That means completely understanding the market into which you expect to sell your images. I sense your passion about natural photography, but I don't sense a studied notion about which market you're expecting to pursue, and that makes advice more specific than you've already seen unlikely, and possibly even counterproductive.

Jeff, you are giving me tips on taking pictures. I really dont need that. What I want to know is how you got your foot in the door? What happened to help you get that first break? Did you say nature photography has no time value? Dude, by the time my kids are grandparents no telling what species will be gone. Is that not time value?

 

Hey guys, thanks for the help. I will figure this out and I wont give up. Nick, hang in there and good luck too you.

Matt, you are right. I get what you are saying. I am new to all this, first time I ever held a camera was six months ago. The mountains shot in my portfolio was the very first shot I ever took. I have always been very pasionate about wildlife and wild places and no doubt will figure this out.

 

Thanks guys

<i>Jeff, you are giving me tips on taking pictures.</i><p>You're still not reading. I didn't give you tips on taking pictures, I told you what kind of pictures are going to get you somewhere. I will give you one huge tip on business - if you don't listen, you won't get anywhere.

Hey Derek, I wasn't kidding above.

 

George Lepp, John Shaw, and many others in the field had the support of a significant other when getting started.

 

Listen to what some working pros here are trying tell you, it's all good advice.

 

The John Shaw book on the Nature Photography business it worth buying.

Here it is on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/2dcego

Derek, I'm not a pro, for a reason, but I can give one piece of advice. Get a bunch more experience and build a great portfolio. If you've been shooting for only 6 months, your portfolio isn't 1/4 the size it needs to be to find buyers.

 

Nature is a tough market because there are a million guys like you, with great gear, wanting to make a living off photography. The best way to get something going is to find a niche where there are few other photogs working, something or someplace unique, or a unique look, or... anything that sets you apart from the masses. Concentrate on that, network, show your pictures to everyone who might help.

 

But first, build a strong portfolio. Frankly I don't see anything in your portfolio that is exceptional. Work on that, the breaks will come when you are ready.

 

<Chas>

Just from a slightly different perspective - not photography, but setting up and running a business - it helps a lot to have several different ideas for products/services to sell and ways to sell them. Some will work out, others won't. And those that do work out will give you ideas and lead to referrals, possibly bigger and better ones. The more "channels" you work on, the greater the chance of success, provided of course there's some synergy between them.

 

I can understand why the others haven't told you how they got their "break" ... the distinct impression I get (apologies to you all if I'm assuming wrongly here) is that there wasn't a single event that that catapaulted them to being in a position to make an income from their passion. Most things like this come from years of hard work to develop a reputation ... and they have given advice freely about how to do this.

 

Does anyone hire nature photographers? I can't imagine it, somehow, without the photographer having put in years of work beforehand.

 

The guys above have spent a lot of time giving you advice, and they are very experienced people. Hang on to every word they say--I certainly am! Read everything in this forum, go through the archives, there are gems in there. Free unbiased advice is a rare thing--be appreciative of it, and you may get even more.

 

And don't forget as well: to take home as much as someone earning $20k or whatever you want in a regular job, you're probably going to have to bring in double that, depending on your overheads and the benefits that employees get in your country such as paid sick leave, insurance etc (my ratio in my business, consulting, which probably has lower overheads than photography, is that I make the equivalent of someone on a salary receiving sixty dollars for every $100 I invoice--that's in Australia, and before tax).

 

With persistence, good luck and realistic time frames (think a decade or two before you're really respected in your profession, not a few months) you have every chance of success. Passion will carry you a long way, as will the stamina to get through lean years (or years where you work on something else to make the money to subsidise your passion).

 

Good luck!