Dye-printer for 'soft-proofing'.

Hi All,

 

I've been building up my digital darkroom over the last year with the aim of producing prints as the goal. Most of what i've done to date has been test-printing, i.e. making versions of an image, sending them off to a print-studio, then re-working the image. I've resisted buying a printer myself mainly for this reason: i am away from home up to two months at a time, a couple of times a year, and i was (am) concerned that leaving a printer unused for a couple of months would cause clogging issues with the print-head, and end up being an excessive expense as a result. However, due to the number of test-prints i'm making, and the time it takes to get them back, i've been wondering if it'd be better to get a printer of my own.

 

I'm not considering a pigment-ink printer because from my research it seems that leaving it unused for two months is definitely going to be an issue. Dye-printers, it seems, are less prone to clogging, and perhaps will be ok if properly stored /cleaned.

 

My strategy in regards to producing my work is that i hope to be able to make my test-prints at home, then, when i finally acheive the print that i'm happy with, i'll send it to be printed by the studio (on their pigment-ink printer). So, i have two questions i'd appreciate input on:

 

1. Will a dye-printer (using Claria HD or ChromaLife 100+ inksets) produce prints which are accurate enough to be used as soft-proofs for the final destination of a pigment-ink print?

 

2. Will a dye-printer not clog if left for a couple of months?

 

Thanks :)

I've had no problems with my old Canon printer or new PRO-100 printer when not used for weeks at a time. Not sure about months, but they don't seem prone to clogging. I assume you're familiar with this site- http://wilhelm-research.com/

Thanks Conrad,

 

Yes, this is the thing, i've picked up that weeks at a time is reasonable with Canon, but 8 weeks at a time... this is the thing.

 

I am aware of Wilhelm's site, is there something i could look up there? -I've only found information on pigment-inks and papers... I'm not concerned about longevity with dye-inks for my purposes (the final prints will be on pigment through a print-studio), only that the prints i make with a dye-inkset will be accurate soft-proofs for the final pigment prints.

I've gone month after month not printing on an Epson 3880 or P800 without clogs. Not the case with my 4900 (had to print every day). So it depends.

Regarding your Pro 100 and the inkset it uses, would you use this printer to soft-proof i.e. if you make a print on it, would it accurately reflect the same image-file printed on a higher-end, pigment print?

@conrad_hoffman

Regarding your Pro 100 and the inkset it uses, would you use this printer to soft-proof i.e. if you make a print on it, would it accurately reflect the same image-file printed on a higher-end, pigment print?

 

@digitaldog

Thanks for your reply. Would you advise buying a printer (dye or pigment) if it was to be left unused for 8 weeks at a time?

I'm a pressman by trade. - I haven't seen a proof matching / predicting my results exactly.

There are 2 things to do, to get disenchanted by print quality: Our teacher let every Marlboro smoker write their name on the pack and align it on his desk, to present an impressive scale of variations of their corporate red.

A co worker asked "Do you have 3 same value bank notes?" and pointed out to me how they varied in their 3/4 or 2/3 tones.

 

I am not into digital printing at home. (Every 8 years or so I ask here if somebody is already making a newspaper quality BW image laser printer and the answer is usually "no". - File closed). My suggestion for a perfect sit around & do nothing printer (besides lasers) would be a dyesub, like Canon Selphy.

 

Dunno when you got into printing; I did during wet darkroom days where & when I did a lot of test strips. I don't know much about digital printing but I am confident it shouldn't be too hard to cut 3 relevant strips out of any A2 image and place these on a Dyesub's postcard. - My somewhat serious concern: How far will a consumer dyesub be integrated into your and your pigment printers color management? - I recommend corresponding with customer support &/ real experts about that. Or at least to try generating a test strips file from an already (& recently!) printed file you like and having it dyesub printed, to judge if this route is worth going.

When mass printing something like the Pantone (or HKS) color guide, to be held next to the result, is usually all we have to eyeball how to adjust the press. I am challenged to see your need for a full size(!) color proof print. If you were working on something else than photos I could see a need for something like blue prints.

 

Best of luck! - I hope I didn't derail you too far.

Hello Jochen,

 

Ha! -no you didn't derail; in fact, you got the jist of where i'm coming from. I appreciate it's not going to be an exact match. What i meant by soft-proofing is this:

 

I'm into the print as the ultimate output for my work, photographs intended for a screen are not my aim. If you're printing, whether wet or digital, there's a learning curve, not only the technical side, but (more relevant for me) the creative side, the purely artistic choices you make. In order to learn /evaluate /practice the skill, you need to make and look at prints. ATM, when i first start working on an image, i make different versions and get them made as C-41 /Lightjet prints, because it costs almost 5 times less than a pigment print. I then sit with the C-41 prints, looking at them, using them to see if i'm on the right track. When i feel i'm close, i start getting pigment-prints made. The C-41's are not comparable to the pigments -the pigments are lush- but they are accurate in that that there are no surprises when i come to getting the pigments made (only good ones). So, this is the kind of 'accuracy' i require from a dye-inkset. (I have no experience of owning /running an inkjet myself, and all my 'knowledge' about them so far is from the internet.)

 

A 'sit around and do nothing' printer is exactly what i'm looking for! -the Selphy (inks) doesn't seem good enough to use as a soft-proofing tool... but, i am going to look into it, because i don't actually know that's the case. Thanks for that suggestion.

Regarding your Pro 100 and the inkset it uses, would you use this printer to soft-proof i.e. if you make a print on it, would it accurately reflect the same image-file printed on a higher-end, pigment print?

 

I would think that they ought to be close, especially if you print using the "relative colorimetric" intent in the print profile.

 

I'm guessing that the Pro 100 will have a bit larger color gamut (capability); if so, and you want to limit it to that of the pigment printer, you should also be able to do this. First "convert" the image to the pigment printer color profile (this will clip colors to that capability). Then (physically) print that converted image to the Pro100, using the Pro 100 profile. Basically what happens in the printing stage is that the converted image is "seen" backwards through the reverse LUTs, then this backwards "look" is converted through the Pro100 profile and physically printed. It should work.

Is there any evidence to support the statement that dye based inkjets have a wider gamut than pigment based? For one thing, dye inks are absorbed into the surface of the paper, whereas pigment inks remain largely on the surface. Absorption and potential spreading (dot gain) would limit the clarity and probably the gamut as well. What's the point of getting darker (or staying lighter) if detail is lost in the process?

 

The main advantage of a dye-sub (actually dye-transfer) printer is three-fold. It is the only way to get a high gloss image, emulating a wet process print. Secondly, the inks don't dry out with disuse. Finally, the resulting prints are very robust, especially if the image is finished with a clear coat layer. You generally have only one source for media and ink, the manufacturer, and often only glossy or pseudo-matte finish.

 

A dye sub printer can have a dedicated profile. Soft-proofing for a dye-sub printer would apply only to dye-sub prints on that machine. Within my limited capability, I have made profiles for dye-sub printers using 60 or so patches. The profiles seem to be nearly linear, according to graphs produced by X-Rite in the profiling process.

Do you want to send your files out for pigment printing because you want to make very large prints? Otherwise if you are getting a printer anyway why no just use your inkjet to produce the final prints? I don't really understand. The current dye (vs pigment) printers are very good and cheap, although the ink is expensive. A good printer like the Canon PRO100 will produce prints that will be just as good as the pigment output from a commercial pigment ink printer. The Canon PRO100 does not clog in general with little use. I use mine only in bursts about 4 times a year. When it does stop working you just have to buy a new one. Mine lasted about 6 years then the head got blocked. I could have got a new head, but it was a better deal to buy a whole new printer and only a little more expensive (Canon printers always have great rebates available). If I wanted an extra large print, then I would not hesitate to send my file to a commercial printer, assuming I was happy with my PRO100 print. If I was worried, I would just request a smaller version (8 x 10 etc) from the commercial printer beforehand as a check. The lifetime of most dye inks now is rated as 100+ years, so I would have thought that would be long enough for anyone, so there is no need to go for a pigment printer. There may be some kudos/requirement to have a pigment print if you are planning to sell them, because of the perception that they last longer. You may be overthinking all this.

Thanks Bill, Ed and Robin for your responses...

 

So, i'm getting that a dye printer (properly profiled, of course) is good enough for soft-proofing /master-prints. "If I wanted an extra large print, then I would not hesitate to send my file to a commercial printer, assuming I was happy with my PRO100 print" - this is exactly what i wanted to know.

 

Robin, i'd send the final files out for pigment printing because of the kudos, yes! There are certain expectations in the fine-art world, justified or not, and pigments command more respect. But also, i only have pigment prints to base my judgement on... i know i like them (more than chemical prints), so that's where i was coming from when i said i'd send out for the final prints. I take the point you're making, that dye printers can be as good as pigments -i simply hadn't considered it. Now i am. (Certainly, it would be much more satisfying to have a dye printer i could make final prints with, rather than just soft-proofing. It's something i can only know when i have dye prints to judge myself.)

 

Robin: "The Canon PRO100 does not clog in general with little use. I use mine only in bursts about 4 times a year."

 

This seems so close to my own situation, but for clarity's sake, would you tell me:

 

If you had to leave your Canon unused completely for two months, a couple of times a year (but otherwise used regularly and maintained well) would you expect it to work when you returned? Or, would you return knowing there's every chance it may not?

Edited May 23, 2019 by asimpod

Yes, it would work. I live in the Northeaast US, humid summers, dry winters. Perhaps if you live in the desert it would be different(?)

FWIW, I probably have left my PRO-100 unused for two months, and have had no trouble with it. But, that's only one data-point. YMMV. I only use Canon inks. Canon knows you'll spend a fortune on inks, so they offer incredible deals on the printer now and then. Find a good deal with a rebate, then find a promo code and combine them. With luck you can get under a hundred bucks for the thing. Warning- the PRO-100 is huge and awkward. Make sure you have room for it. It's also best to have two people to set it up.

Yes, indeed, you can get for c$100-150 or so with rebates etc. A new head costs about $125. I too only use Canon inks.

I'm confused by the terms used here with respect to 'soft proofing' which takes place on a display.

It sounds like you want to use an inexpensive printer to simulate the output of another printer (which isn't soft proofing). It's possible under some strict conditions:

1. The proofer has to have as large a color gamut as the device you hope to match. If not, matching can be impossible for some colors.

2. You need really good ICC output profiles for both printers. Then what you do is called 'cross rendering'; make one printer simulate another.

3. The papers need to be nearly identical or there will be mismatching.

4. You'll need to convert from printer 1 (the final) to printer 2 (the proofer) using the Absolute Colorimetric intent to 'honor' the paper differences unless identical.

Even under all ideal conditions above, it's often necessary to edit the output profile for a better match and that's not for the faint of heart and requires specialized software.

Now if you just want something kind of, sort of, close...... ;)

I'm confused by the terms used here with respect to 'soft proofing' which takes place on a display.

 

It could be 'soft-proof' is not the right language... the only way i can describe it: When i first start working with an image, i have multiple versions /files printed as C-41 prints on Fuji Archive paper. This is because (1) C-41 is much cheaper; (2) I can't truly evaluate from a screen, i need a print to look at. I choose the version i like most, re-work it, and then send the new version to be printed as a pigment print on Canson Platine. If i don't like the overall feel /look of a C-41 print, i won't like the pigment version of it. -The colours will not be the same, among other things, but for those things i can trust my monitor. So, the C-41 prints are my 'soft-proofs'. And, i wanted to know if a dye-inkset could function in the same way for me.

Conrad, Robin, that is really good to know, two Pro 100 users who have faith it would fuction after two months. I would use original inks, definitely. (And i live by a river, with wet winters).

 

I'm rather surprised /shocked by the prices you're stating: in the UK the Pro100 is £350 plus!

 

Thank you all for your feedback. I'm encouraged to pursue this course and will be looking into it seriously.

 

Best Wishes

:)

My pigment printer does 'dry-up' sometimes. I buy some incredibly cheap dye refill cartridges and run them few some cleanings and voila, all is well and I put back the pigment cartridges.

Thanks JD,

 

I get that pigment printers are less prone to clogging than when they first came out; certain models do stand out as being robust in this respect. Dyes by nature though are less prone to clogging (and cheaper to buy, run and maintain)... in what i do think is a risk (i accept that if i buy a dye printer, it may well not work after two months unused), choosing dye is a better bet than pigment.

 

I do really like the pigment prints i've had made. There's a quality to textures that looks almost like an oil painting... In the next life!

:)

Edited May 25, 2019 by asimpod

Any ink will do better with paper that is 'made' for it, but there's no doubt in my mind that the pigment prints not only look better , but also last a lot longer than dyes.

I confused "Dye" printers in the headline with "Dye-Sub", hence my largely irrelevant response.

 

Both Canon printers, the Pro-100 (dye ink) and Pro-10 (pigment ink) are very good and similar in performance. According to some sources, the Pro-100 is better for lighter tones and the Pro-10 for darker prints. However in my experience, either printer can be used for a wide variety of images. Clogging does not seem to be an issue, even after weeks of disuse. In part, that's because the printer periodically executes cleaning cycles while it is powered up. That uses up a lot of ink over time, but with 13 ml cartridges, you don't have to change cartridges very often, and the cost is far less per ml than with smaller printers.

 

My daughter-in-law uses her printer mainly to reproduce pastel and water color drawings, I concentrate on highly saturated landscapes. I think we both made the right choices. Both are calibrated using X-Rite equipment and software (my contribution to the tech). I do not hesitate to send images out for printing, having adjusted them on a calibrated system and reviewed them using my Pro-10. Judging from her drawings and photos on the wall, my daughter-in-law has a similar experience with a Pro-100.