D7000 shutter curtains bent b/c of high-speed shooting?

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by cjk, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. cjk

    cjk

    So I lent my D7000 to a friend of mine who is traveling in the Middle East. He's a relatively experienced photographer.
    He used it on a stop-motion project (for a grant), where he was shooting in high speed over multiple rounds . He took 150 - 200 photos each round. Each round lasted about 3 - 5 minutes. After 4-5 rounds, the camera gave him an ERR message and stopped working.
    A trip to the local Nikon dealer diagnosed a shutter curtain bent (to the outside, so the sensor should be fine) and the dealer is asking for $450 to repair them lcoally.
    Shouldn't the camera be able to handle this level of shooting? I've used myself to shoot full-day swim meets and took more photos that this in high-speed bursts without any problem.
    Could this fall under a manufacturing defect that Nikon US should repair for free? (total shutter count is at about 66,000). Camera was bought on Amazon in January 2011.
    Thanks for your advice.
    -CJK
     
  2. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Unfortunately, as I have pointed out a number of times here, DSLRs such as the D7000 and D7100 are designed as consumer cameras. I used them to photograph birds in burst, but they are not really designed for that kind of heavy usage. I am not at all surprised that some of them would have a failed shutter when used that way. Not every unit would fail, some sooner and some later. It happens to be sooner for your particular D7000.
    If this D7000 was purchased in January 2011, it is over 2 years past the original one-year warranty. I seriously doubt that Nikon would fix it for free. However, in these days a new D7000 is not much more than that $450 repair cost. I would use the opportunity to get a new D7100 with improved AF or get another new D7000.
    That is why I really don't think increasing the buffer size on the D7100 is the answer. If Nikon did that, lots of people would treat the D7100 as a big time sports camera and use it heavily it in a way that it is not designed for. I personally would like to see a DX body built like a D4 and sold at $4000 or so, but there is clearly insufficient market for such a rugged and expensive DX body.
     
  3. Your kidding right ? It has 66,000 clicks it's 3 years old and you want Nikon to fix it for free?
     
  4. A shutter can fail at any time. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what your friend was doing.
    There is no such thing as a guaranteed number of shutter clicks; there is only the warranty period. So, no, Nikon USA has no obligation to make the repair for free. on a 3-year-old camera.
    Your friend's grant should have included sufficient funds for equipment acquisition rather then relying on loaners.
    Oh, and Shun, I already treat my D7100 as a big time sports camera. If/when the shutter fails, I'll have it repaired or I'll replace the camera. That's just a cost of doing business. If it wasn't intended for that kind of use, the inclusion of the CAM 3500 AF system makes little sense.
     
  5. He used it on a stop-motion project (for a grant), where he was shooting in high speed over multiple rounds . He took 150 - 200 photos each round. Each round lasted about 3 - 5 minutes. After 4-5 rounds, the camera gave him an ERR message and stopped working.

    If my friend said he was going to shoot the camera non stop for so many frames, I would point him to the nearest rental store and tell him good luck.
    shouldn't the camera be able to handle this level of shooting? I've used myself to shoot full-day swim meets and took more photos that this in high-speed bursts without any problem.


    yea, you started the killing, and your friend finished it. its not a camera for sports. bursts are fine but crap, youre shooting it nonstop for minutes. not seconds. it heated up and warped. use some brain power. its not a D3/D3s/D4. sheesh. some people.
     
  6. and the dealer is asking for $450 to repair them lcoally.​
    Sounds pretty steep to me, i would at least send it to Nikon to ask for a quote, i guess
     
  7. pge

    pge

    This has turned into a bit of a harsh threat. Personally I would be pissed off if my shutter died at that stage of its life. Nikon Canada warranties are 2 years for bodies but that still wouldn't do you any good.
     
  8. 200 photos per round, 5 rounds, about 1000 shots.
    200 photos per round, 5 minutes per round, a bit more than 1 shot per second.
    The camera has 66,000 shots and your friend put 1000 on it. I'd say you did most of the work on the shutter. Consumer cameras are rated at around 100,000 shots, but that's an average. Some will do more, some less.
    20,000 shots/year is fairly heavy usage for a consumer camera.
     
  9. 20,000 shots/year is fairly heavy usage for a consumer camera.​
    I had a feeling Nikon wants you to think the D7000 series is more than just consumer......it's their FLAGSHIP DX series!*
    *Irony NOT included. 2000 a day is pro sport usage...so that's 10 work days.. Ha bl**dy Ha!
     
  10. And you really believe the shutter has bent because that much use? I cannot believe that there is that much friction or sensor heating that the shutter starts to bend. Ok maybe just a mechanical failure.
    A suggestion, check the first diagnosis first.
    As said, the shutter can still fail at any time, tough.
     
  11. Not sure how you know what Nikon thinks?
     
  12. He took 150 - 200 photos each round. Each round lasted about 3 - 5 minutes.​
    That's no more than 1 frame per second. Hardly what I'd call high speed shooting.
    And how the hell does a shutter get bent. I don't see how high speed shooting could do that.
     
  13. lesson to be learned, don't lend anything to anybody including neighbors, family, friends or in-laws. It only creates awkward situations involving money and feelings.
     
  14. Chances are this failure is not related to what your friend did (of course there is no way for knowing for sure).
     
  15. I have to disagree with Shun on this one. I would expect a camera in this price range to be able to handle that level of use. Yeah a shutter can fail at any time and maybe this one just had a short expiration date. It happens. I also wonder if something else didn't happen none of us including the OP and the guy that borrowed the camera are aware of. Something got inside the camera somehow. Don't know but I'd be dissapointed and irate with such a failure. Would not expect a warranty repair though.

    Rick H.
     
  16. cjk

    cjk

    Shun, CPM, Phil, Kari, Tom, Elliot, Rick,
    Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful and constructive answer.
    Shun: I understand your reasoning, but if you stay within the same logic (that Nikon has "crippled" the D7x00 to avoid intense pro-like usage), then any shooting the user can still do shouldn't harm the camera, right?. At least, they should have / would have put a warning somewhere in the manual against exceeding certain limits of repeat shooting.
    On the D7000's webpage (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d7000/features03.htm), they tout the shutter as a "highly durable shutter unit proven by 150,000 cycles". I am perfectly familiar with statistics: failing at 66,000 actuations means either an abnormally early failure (hence my mentioning the possibility of this qualifying as a manufacturing defect) or that the shutter's life expectancy distribution curve is very very flat, rendering it meaningless. The latter would have meant countless D7000 having their shutter fail way before the 150,000 cycles, which I imagine would have made some noise in the market…
    Put differently: if one assumes that the average consumer upgrades his/her D-SLR every 5 years, then normal usage would mean about 30,000 actuations a year. This D7000 has 66,000 actuations in 3 years, very much under the expected number.
    Kari: thank you for the suggestion on checking the accuracy of the diagnostic. Will see if that's feasible where he currently is.
    Rick: that's what I am leaning towards too. Something might have gotten inside the camera and did the destructive work.
    One more thing to clarify to the folks who gave me advice about not lending to friends, etc. The relation is a little more complex that what I described. The main purpose of my description was to make it clear that 1) the incident did not happen with me and 2) the camera is about 7,000 miles away so I cannot easily check it or get it checked quickly by Nikon USA. But advice on lending well taken -- for another time. Just not applicable here :)
    Lastly, I will NOT get into a debate with the folks who, not having anything constructive to contribute, seem to enjoy going into personal attacks. I enjoy the friendly atmosphere of Photo.Net and refuse to get into this kind of useless character attacks.
     
  17. Cesar, the shutter on my D3 failed after 90k actuation - it is rated for 300k. There are many D3's out there with 300k+ actuations on their original shutters and still going strong Shutters can and do fail prematurely. You probably just ran into some bad luck.
    Nikon fixed my camera as a courtesy at n/c (Melville) and it was just out of warranty (by a couple of months). I have heard of others whose camera was just out of Nikon's original warranty period and were repaired at no charge. They repaired a lens of mine that was out of warranty twice over the course of 3 years. Your camera appears to be well out of the warranty period so it is doubtful that they would repair it at no charge but you never know. Send it to them - the estimate is free. It doesn't hurt to ask!
     
  18. My D3 laster 650000 clicks and then replaced. my F5's did 350000 and 450000, all rounded off. sounds suspicious that it failed so prematurely but I suspect that the shutter failing was not an accident. I suspect the camera wasnt cared for properly and possible abused, but no one really knows but you and the friend who used it. youre posting here as if the camera was so well cared for but really know one knows. this is just your word. if the camera could speak...
    the shutter mechanism is very fragile. I dont think its meant to handle MINUTES of non stop use like you and the friend did. I dont think its meant to handle 1000 shots in 5 minutes. I think it either had damage before or it simply overheated from friction and bent. who knows the cameras history. if it was used in the freezing cold or blistering heat or crazy humid conditions, or where the camera was taken throughout the 3 years it was with you. so I dont doubt the failure was an accident. I think you pushed the camera too far.
    I dont know if you ever saw a shutter mechanism with your own eyes, or even touched one. but you cant believe how flexible and thin the blades are. I saw my F5 (its bent and sitting collecting dust) and its so thin, you cant imagine. you put your finger through it without the slightest pressure. you might think its thick tough stiff blades but it isnt. its so thin and fragile. especially in a prosumer/amateur camera. its not meant to handle that abuse. but $400+ sounds steep for repair.
     
  19. If Nikon did that, lots of people would treat the D7100 as a big time sports camera and use it heavily it in a way that it is not designed for.​
    Why didn't they just put the D300 shutter in it then?
    Answer, 'cos the shutter can handle way more than the measly buffer can!
    I don't think the 1 frame / second average is remotely abusive, but that this is just a case of below average shutter-life. Some will live longer and some shorter.
    I vaguely think I remember a broken shutter blade post from a while back on a lent-out camera, and I think the final problem was in an un-attended moment little fingers played where they shouldn't. The cruz was whether the borrower should pay for the repair...but the actual cause was tampering.
     
  20. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    People keep in talking about the average, but the average is not the issue here.
    The problem is that the OP has been using this particular D7000 in burst mode frequently photographing swim meets, and it was on loan to someone who was apparently also using it in burst mode when the shutter failure occurred. When a consumer-grade camera such as the D7000 is frequently under stress, it should surprise no one that its shutter fails much sooner than the rated 150K actuations.
    Whether (1) it was the OP who himself put most of the wear and tear on that camera and the person who borrowed it happend to put on "the last straw" or (2) the borrower might have abused it without revealing that to the ower or (3) that camera just happened to have some random failure, we will never know for sure.
    I can understand that the OP is frustrated that his D7000 seems to have a failed shutter earlier than the expected 150K actuations, but things like that happens, with or without abuse on the camera. I have seen a number of people who post here that their Nikon DSLRs have lasted over 300K, 400K actuations, much longer than expected; robert stig above is one example. They are all happy for their good fortune. However, I have never seen anybody who offers to pay Nikon some extra money because their cameras have lasted a long time.
    Sorry Cesar, I see no reason why Nikon would fix your D7000 for free, two years past the original one-year warranty. The fact that this camera was loaned to someone else out of the owner's control, be it 7 miles away or 7000 miles away, doesn't help. When it was 7000 miles away, whether it was in some hostile climate: extreme heat, cold, or wet ... could be contributing factors. If I were you, more realistically, you should consider whether you want to: (1) pay for the repair, (2) buy another D7000 at the current fairly low price, or (3) upgrade to something newer or better.
    Whether the borrower should pay for (part of) the repair and whether it is a good idea to loan your camera to someone else to begin with are other issues for the OP to pounder.
     
  21. The problem is that the OP has been using this particular D7000 in burst mode frequently photographing swim meets, and it was on loan to someone who was apparently also using it in burst mode when the shutter failure occurred. When a consumer-grade camera such as the D7000 is frequently under stress, it should surprise no one that its shutter fails much sooner than the rated 150K actuations.
    Whether (1) it was the OP who himself put most of the wear and tear on that camera and the person who borrowed it happend to put on "the last straw" or (2) the borrower might have abused it without revealing that to the ower or (3) that camera just happened to have some random failure, we will never know for sure.​
    Exactly. bravo Shun! the camera was worn out faster than it should have been. it was under too much stress and who know what conditions it was shot in. its overall history. who know if it isnt carried underneath a scooter to photo shoots. who really knows. and on the internet anyone can be anyone and say anything and no one could check its validity.
    from the info you give, I think the camera was abused throughout its life. but thats my personal opinion. you dont have to defend, just telling what I see from your post. you took it to a humid place shooting it for minutes at a time non stop, over many sessions. it says to me you dont know much about cameras and their capabilities and what you can and cant do with a camera. if it was a pro camera, F5, D3 series, D4 fine, but jeez a D7000? cmon use some sense. when my friend was showing off with his D3s snapping the shutter, after 3-4 seconds I grabbed it from him because I know how fragile a shutter mechanism is. not even a mm thick piece of metal, and its DX as well which means smaller and more friction build up.

    so overall, you stressed the camera, and prematurely wore it out. its logical not to use the camera for these purposes and at the minimum, I would have called or emailed Nikon with a query asking if the camera was capable.
    the most I ever shoot my D3 or D600 at CH is 3-4 seconds not 5 minutes. what did you expect?
     
  22. "I dont think its meant to handle MINUTES of non stop use like you and the friend did. I dont think its meant to handle 1000 shots in 5 minutes."

    You may be right. But keep in mind that the OP stated that his friend was taking "150 - 200 photos each round. Each round lasted about 3 - 5 minutes", which translates to 40-60 frames a minute, which is 1 frame per second or so. So the camera was not being run continuously for the time period, nor at its maximum frame rate. 200 photos per minute for 5 minutes is still only about 1/2 the frame rate the camera is rated at. And per Nikon's own information, the camera is designed to take 100 JPGS without stopping.

    There is just no way of knowing what cause this failure. The only thing that is certain is that it failed. And that some shutters on just about any camera can and do fail prematurely. FWIW, the OP is not alone with his shutter failure - others have reported similar experiences. Perhaps they are all abusing their cameras. Perhaps not. There is just no way of knowing for sure.
    If there is an overheat issue, perhaps Nikon should have an overheat sensor to prevent the camera from shooting if the shutter mechanism gets too hot. Something like the SB-900 has! See how well that worked out, LOL!
     
  23. cjk

    cjk

    What's clear to me from the widely varying opinions here is that there is no consensus, including among experienced photogs.
    (same conclusion as in a previous thread: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00a90P)
    Additional research, including on the consumer protection front, tells me that such an early failure leaves room for negotiations with Nikon for a reduced-cost repair. The usage pattern totally falls within reasonable boundaries as the camera was not pushed beyond what the manual says it can do and what Nikon itself advertises. [when a manufacturer says you can shoot 100 JPEG's non-stop, one can reasonably expect the camera not to break down at the end of that stream].
    Of course, if Nikon's diagnostic finds another reason for the failure, such as mishandling or a foreign object, then it's a different story.
    Again, I appreciate the time and effort of those who contributed constructive input. I am still unable to figure out the reasons behind the obnoxiousness of some of the others who seem unable to have a civil discussion or make up their own assumptions about past usage without knowing really much about it
    [if you really want to know:
    - the camera has been with my friend for almost a year now
    - it had ~28,000 clicks on it last time I used it
    - the last swim meet I shot was in spring 2012 and I shot a total of about 10 meets, each shooting about 1000 photos over 6-7 hours, usually in bursts of 3-4 photos
    - the swim meets were all outdoors, so never in a closed humid environment
    - etc, etc, etc]
     
  24. if there is an overheat issue, perhaps Nikon should have an overheat sensor to prevent the camera from shooting if the shutter mechanism gets too hot. Something like the SB-900 has! See how well that worked out, LOL!​
    Real well! haha
    regarding OP, we have to accept what he says at face value but no one knows. it seems to me the camera had a hard life. im not 100% certain that the info on the shooting data is exactly like he says. something is suspicious and iffy. I would say that he should be happy with 66k
     
  25. regarding OP, we have to accept what he says at face value but no one knows​
    Robert S, I'm not sure why you're being so suspicious... Chill!
    Nikon might not accept it, but we are not Nikon and we do accept what he says. It's a trust thing. He gains nothing from us by making stuff up.
    The usage described is not abusive or excessive. The shutter died 'early'. Those 2 facts are not necessarily connected. Some pampered shutters die early and some highly abused shutters last over 400000 frames. I suspect anything over 50000 frames is well used.
    I feel Nikon might refuse a freebie due to age....they may or may not, it depends on them...but it's certainly worth asking!
     

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