D600 Sensor Spots Appear Again - Any one with same issue

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by hemant_deshmukh|1, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Hi All,
    Received sensor cleaned D600 from Nikon about 4 weeks back (Shutter mechanism replaced, Sensor cleaned) . After 700-800 shots oil blobs appear again, also Camera Hot Shoe malfunctions with external flash ( after Nikon servicing my camera). Called up Nikon USA, sent them sample they advised to send camera back along with my speedlight. I am sure they will take another 4-5 weeks to clean/fix it again.
    Question : Has any one experienced same spot reappearance issue after Nikon Service ( Had read one thread where Nikon Australia giving an option of refund or buying D800 with difference of price) . Please advise what should I do ? I have lost faith in the system. Thinking of writing to Costco to return my entire set back (not sure after 8 month after buying it they will honor this return.)
    I have used many Nikon cameras for last 26 years, starting from FM/FM2/FE/FE2/FG/N65/80,D50 now D600 I was never so disappointed.
    Any advise from experts will help.
     
  2. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Have you tried wet cleaning the sensor yourself, after the repair? On any DSLR, you will get some dust spots after a while.
     
  3. I had to send my D800 back twice to repair the left AF issue until they got it right. I was without my body for about the same amount of time (fortunately I have a good backup) so I understand your frustration. You will be happier once the camera is functioning correctly.
    If you are happy with your body aside from this issue, just send it in to be re-serviced. Hopefully you have a backup for the time it was away. I am not sure what other options you have. Are they offering you any kind of exchange or upgrade?
     
  4. How did you pay? Certain credit/bank cards have extra terms that may help you.
     
  5. I have read several reports from users that had their D600 serviced - only to have the oil spots re-appear after a short while. To me this indicates that even after exchanging shutter and possibly the mirror assembly, the problem isn't fixed and that Nikon doesn't have a good handle on a solution to the issue at all (and I am not talking about some dust spots that are normal and generally easy to clean - this is oil-splatter that is an inherent problem). Warranty on some D600 is about to expire - and whether or not Nikon will then start charging for the service is as of yet unknown.
    If you like the camera, you can either opt for a re-service (and probably a few more in the future), or as Shun suggests, deal with the cleaning yourself. I know of several users that go this route (and are generally happy with the camera) - question is whether or not you are willing to deal with it. If you are - like I know I would be - unwilling to cope with what I consider a defective camera - then I would try to find out if Nikon is willing to make a trade or if Costco is going to take the camera back.
     
  6. Hi, Shun (and anyone else who might be able to answer). Does wet-cleaning--say with the Copperhill Sensor Swabs and Eclipse--actually get the oil spots off?
    I don't own a D600, but I am interested in it. I've held off in large part owing to the reports of recurrent oil on the sensor. I don't mind cleaning the sensor myself--I do it when necessary with my D300--and if removing the oil spots can be done that way, rather than solely through a time-consuming return of the camera to Nikon, it would mitigate one of the barriers to my actually possibly purchasing one.
    Thanks for any info.
     
  7. Bernard: I recently wet cleaned the sensors of two older DSLRs (a D300 & D700) for the first time. After years of not doing more than simply blowing the sensors clean with a blower bulb every few months, I decided to do some image tests and observed a few different types of spots and debris.

    Magnification and close inspection of the test images revealed some marks that looked like the usual irregularly-shaped dry dust or lint-type squiggles. I also noticed a couple of perfectly round, transluscent marks that looked like oil, or some other kind of fluid, deposited on the sensor's surface over time. I never noticed strange things appearing in my images with either of these two cameras, but now that we're all so paranoid about debris on the sensor I thought it was time to take immediate action.

    I used a cleaning fluid from Visible Dust designed to clean both water and oil-based deposits, and two different sizes of cleaning swabs for both the DX and FX sensors. Both sensors came out absolutely spotless, with zero visible marks on all subsequent test images, even under extreme magnification and examination. The entire process only took a few minutes and was extremely simple; I should have done it years ago. Now I'll probably do it at least once a year with all sensors.

    I ordered the items from Amazon and got them in just a couple of days. They probably cost more than they should, but it's a heck of lot cheaper than having it done by a repairperson, or waiting weeks to get your camera back from Nikon if under warranty. You can read about the various types of sensor cleaning fluid formulas, and the sizes of swabs you will need for your camera's sensor, at the Visible Dust site:

    http://visibledust.com/WetCleaningManual.php
     
  8. Hi
    I am going to talk to Nikon tomorrow. Not sure how do I talk to some one at supervisor or manager level. Last time they took more than 20 minutes to connect to supervisor. May be I will talk about exchange or return camera to costco.
    I love D600, excellent camera but these issues are really creating hassle for me. I just want to know if any one has traded back the camera with Nikon USA and what should be the formal approach.
    Shun: I have not tried any cleaning myself. These are not dust but oil spots. Also I had this camera back from service only 4 weeks back. It is under warranty till mid December. Also my Hotshoe is not functioning properly after last service.
     
  9. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    First of all, I don't own a D600, so I have no long-term experience with one. When the D600 was first available in September, 2012, Nikon USA sent me a test sample that I used for close to two months. As I have pointed out a few times before, I never noticed any unusual dust/oil problems until Roger Cicala's article popped up: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj
    My take is that the D600's design may be more prone to some dust/oil issue. However, some dust/oil is going to happen to any DSLR. I would wet clean it a few times. Part of the "problem" with the D600 is that since its oil problem is so widely discussed, a lot more people tend to check it at f22, etc. And if you shoot at f22, any DSLR is going to show more dust issues.
    I suggest you read this discussion and especially Steve Bingham and Matt Laur's experience with their D600: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bshL
    To the OP, if the hot shoe has an issue, it definitely has to be fixed. If wet cleaning doesn't correct the oil problem, I would send it back to Nikon. And if Nikon cannot fix that after another try, I would put pressure on them to replace your D600 with a new one. Clearly there are good, problem-free D600 bodies around. There is no reason that yours is not like that.
     
  10. Hi, Sergio! That mirrors my own experience with the D300. A good swabbing leaves the sensor in pretty much pristine condition. (Because I shoot stuff like clubs and professional boxing, where the heat and humidity can get quite high and lead to dust particles and other things getting stuck to the sensor and not coming off with a simple blast of air, I bought a cleaning kit a long time ago.)
    However, what I'd really like to know about is the D600. Apparently some design flaw causes it to repeatedly deposit oil from some part of the shutter/mirror assembly on the sensor--something my D300 never did (and which it seems the D800 doesn't do, either).
    If this oil can be cleaned up by a simple DIY process then, while a bit irritating, it wouldn't be an insuperable difficulty in owning a D600--so long as you were resigned to giving it a good clean regularly. However, if it can't be removed by the standard sensor-cleaning kits, and will require a trip (or repeated voyages) back to Nikon to remedy, then steering clear of the camera until they get it permanently fixed seems the wise move.
    So I'm hoping someone who's owned the D600, had the oil spot problem, and has attempted to clean it themselves can offer us some information as to how satisfactory that process is. Cheers!
     
  11. And, by the way, I've read all the claims and counterclaims about the D600 and the oil issue. Yeah, it seems that some people have had the problem--and most, probably, haven't. However, there is enough anecdotal evidence that suggests the problem does exist in some cameras that it's worth considering, for a piece of kit which is a rather significant investment.
    If there indeed is a problem, and it can be remedied by an occasional do-it-yourself sensor cleaning, then really--it isn't a problem, at least so far as I'm concerned. But I would like to hear a bit of first hand experience from someone who has dealt with it.
     
  12. What I find troubling about this thread and this one by R Bond:
    http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bsrn
    is the common theme of equipment sent to Nikon and returned without the problem being resolved or with new problems/damage. It mirrors my experience with Nikon a few years ago.
    http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00UKqc
    http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00UVod
    http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00UcQ3
    In this case the problem was not corrected and the flash shoe was damaged. True the flash shoe could have been damaged in the return shipment (we know it worked when the camera arrived at Nikon, or it would not have passed inspection), but that would imply faulty packaging by Nikon. If the camera was not damaged in return shipment, Nikon's quality control is lacking.
    In R Bond's case it was sloppy workmanship and poor quality control.
    Sloppy workmanship from Nikon factory repair, on both the East and West coast, is troubling. Nikon makes great equipment, but it is expensive - expensive enough so if it fails it is worth repairing in many cases. Nikon USA has restricted the sale of repair parts and forced many independent repair shops to stop working on Nikon equipment, leaving users with few choices except Nikon. If the Nikon repair service has become unreliable, I for one will have to reconsider purchasing Nikon equipment.
    It is troubling.
     
  13. Doesn't Nikon offer a 6 month warranty on a repaired body? BTW, after 2 D600's were returned for oil issues at my local camera store I bypassed the D600 and bought a refurbished D800 and I'm 100% satisfied with my purchase!
     
  14. A few things:
    - I sent my D600 back to Nikon for cleaning of oil spots. A couple of days ago I noticed what I thought were oil spots again, but they disappeared when I used a blower so they must have been dust - are you sure yours is oil ?
    - I have read that the standard Nikon fix for oil spots was to replace the mirror box, as that's where the excess oil comes from. When I had my sensor cleaned Nikon did not volunteer to do this and at the time I was not aware or I would have asked about it.
    - Having never had any oil or dust problems with my old D200, I am presuming that at least part of the D600's problem is the fact that it has twice as many pixels. I am guessing I just never noticed them on the D200.
     
  15. The D600 oil/dust problem is unique to the D600. It is not the same as other random dust that's gets into DLSRs. It is very simple to prove. Every complaint about this problem on the D600 that I have read, and I have read a lot of them, the oil/dust shows up In the exact same location. There is 100% a design flaw, of some kind, with this camera. I own one and had the problem. I'm waiting to see if it returns. I love the camera and would buy another one, but that does not change the fact there is a problem. A problem that should not happen on a $2000 camera.
    I'm sorry, I know Shun likes to throw out the "only really a problem at f/22" statement when addressing this issue, but this problem is visible at almost all f stops. Shun states he dose not own a D600 and only tested a factory test unit, so I can only assume that he is assuming the problem is only able to be seen at f/22 since he dose not shoot a D600. Yes, at f/22 you will see at least some dust on most DLSRs, but it is random dust, not all in one spot, on every unit that is having the issue.
    Anyway, it is what it is. There are a few resent threads on this issue. Check them out.
     
  16. I just rented a D600 from LensRentals.com. Out of the box, with 16,173 on the shutter, I did the ..blue sky @F22.. to check for sensor dirt. There was none. After 600-800 shots I tested again, and the black blobs appeared on the upper left of sensor. I cleaned with my rocket blower, and used the Auto Clean all the time I had the camera. When I sent it back the sensor was filthy all over. The D600 has a design flaw of some kind.
    I will say that the camera has great IQ, and is pretty good at high ISO. I would not buy a D600 at this time because of the design flaw. If Nikon can come up with a solution to the problem I MIGHT reconsider.
    I have a D2x, D200, D300, & D700. I have never wet cleaned any of my cameras. To say that wet cleaning on a regular basis is normal, is pure BS, IMO.
    Good luck with your photography.
     
  17. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Mike Plavchak, I am afraid that you have developed an obsession on the D600's oil/dust issue. I have seen people who would never miss any discussion on "D300 problems" or D7000 AF issues as well as D800 AF problems. If you believe in all of those, you would think Nikon only makes really bad SLRs.
    I have a D2x, D200, D300, & D700. I have never wet cleaned any of my cameras. To say that wet cleaning on a regular basis is normal, is pure BS, IMO.​
    Ralph, a decade ago, I bought a wet cleaning kit for my D100 and later on I used it on my D2X. Companies have been making such wet cleaning kits and people buy them for years for a reason. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean such a process is "pure BS." Some people use their cameras in more dusty environments and therefore their cameras need more cleaning.
    Otherwise, those who are still interested in that topic can read this thread: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bshL
     
  18. I don't think criticizing the messenger is really appropriate. There are enough reports by users of the D600 - people who
    don't appear to be "obsessed" or otherwise off their nut - to indicate that there is a real problem that needs to be
    addressed by Nikon. And making them, and potential buyers, aware of the problem ensures that Nikon will address it.

    Holding Nikon to account and creating a sense of urgency in them to fix the flaw, while providing useful information to the
    members of photo.net can only be a *good* thing. (Didn't Nikon eventually sort the D800 focus problem - which *did*
    exist, despite similar poo-pooing from some quarters about that issue?)

    To continually slag off reasonable sounding people who report, apparently honestly, their own experiences makes the
    unbiased reader wonder if someone (who, theoretically say, happens to moderate the Nikon forum on a highly influential
    Internet site) has their own agenda/axe to grind. I'm not implying anything, I'm just sayin'.
     
  19. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I don't think criticizing the messenger is really appropriate. There are enough reports by users of the D600 - people who don't appear to be "obsessed" or otherwise off their nut - to indicate that there is a real problem that needs to be addressed by Nikon. And making them, and potential buyers, aware of the problem ensures that Nikon will address it.
    Holding Nikon to account and creating a sense of urgency in them to fix the flaw, while providing useful information to the members of photo.net can only be a *good* thing. (Didn't Nikon eventually sort the D800 focus problem - which *did* exist, despite similar poo-pooing from some quarters about that issue?)
    To continually slag off reasonable sounding people who report, apparently honestly, their own experiences makes the unbiased reader wonder if someone (who, theoretically say, happens to moderate the Nikon forum on a highly influential Internet site) has their own agenda/axe to grind. I'm not implying anything, I'm just sayin'.​
    Bernard Miller, if you are referring to me and disagree with what I post, I would really appreciate that you mention me by name, just as I am mentioning your name right here. Doing so would remove all uncertainties. Please don't say any of those "I'm not implying anything," stuff. That only comes across to be disingenuous.
    For this forum, I always have the best interests for our members in mind. We indeed do not at all discourage people from reporting their bad experience here, as the OP did on this very thread. From the very beginning (October, 2012), Roger Cicala, who owns LensRental.com and deals with many samples of a lot of photo equipment, first reported this issue, he suggested that the likely cause is due to the D600's shutter curtain: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2012/10/22/does-the-nikon-d600-have-a-sensor-dust-problem
    That should be something Nikon can fix without too much difficulty. In fact, Nikon posted a service advisory back in February: https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180/~/to-users-of-the-d600-digital-slr-camera
    To me, it would make no sense for Nikon to continue to sell defective D600 cameras only to generate a large number of returns and free warranty repairs (free to the customer but costly to Nikon) that cost them to lose money. In fact, there are a number of reliable sources reporting that the D600 they purchase in 2013 are problem free, such as our own Matt Laur. While I hope that I won't create a major burden for Matt, you are welcome to check with him.
    IMO, we would be doing our members here who may be interested in the D600, such as Bernard Miller yourself, a major dis-service by scaring them from this fine (although certainly far from perfect) camera. I had a very early D600 for about 50 days, from September 20, 2012 to about November 10 that year, with about 1700 captures. And I see no trace of oil problems that would concern me.
    Instead, my advice to those who are buying a D600 is to check it thoroughly. Don't get obsessed with f22. Use your normal apertures and especially look for any unusual oil and dust issue. Clean it a few times (dry and wet) if necessary, as you would with any DSLR. If the problem does not go away, by all means get an exchange or send back to Nikon for repair. The financial burden should be a major incentive for Nikon to thoroughly correct any problem, on the D600 or otherwise. That part I agree with you. As long as you can get an exchange or get a refund, IMO there is essentially no risk to consumers.
    And Nikon has a tendency to replace any model with wide-spread problems, real or perceived, promptly. For example, the D70 has the notorous BGLOD problem and was quickly replaced by the D70S a year later. Today, even the $1200 D7100 has a Multi-CAM 3500 inside. Hopefully Nikon will replace the D600 with something with a better AF system for FX.
     
  20. First off, Shun, thank you for your concern over my "obsession on the D600's oil/dust issue". My real obsession is people such as yourself telling me and others that there is no "real" problem with the D600 and that we are nit picking over a non issue, when the only experience you have with the D600 is testing an early test model for a short time and only shooting 1,700 frames. So that some how elevates you to expert level in all things D600, enough so that you feel you can tell me that the dust/oil problem I have with my 2013 made D600 ,that I shoot everyday,is nothing more than just normal dust issues all DLSRs have. Really?? Kinda of like you test driving a Ford Pinto for 20 minutes and then stating that the Pinto's gas tank you tested did not explode, so there must not be a real problem. Makes about as much sense.
    My other obsession with you is your refusal to answer a simple question I have asked you at least four times now. So I will ask one more time. Please explain why you do not believe this problem is a design flaw and unique to the D600 when every reported dust/oil problem is in the upper left corner. This is NOT random dust Shun.
    And no, the 2013 models have not been fixed. At least not the 2013 model I have and the ones two of my friends have. I still believe Nikon knows what the problem is. I also do not think it is costing Nikon that much to repair/service these cameras. Pretty sure these are not high paid techs doing repairs. More likely people making minimum wage. They are doing a two minute cleaning job and maybe changing out the mirror box. Would be shocked if it took a total of ten minutes. And it seems, from reports, that the problem is returning on some repaired units. Plus not all cameras are having the issue and not all photographers are paying attention enough to see the problem. If they are not doing paid work and/or doing post processing they may not notice and/or care.
    I love the camera and would buy another one. I would recommend my friends buy it, and I have a few times. I just advised them of the issue that they may or may not have with it. I just kinda of get a kick out of you doing everything you can to not just come out and say "yes this camera has some kind of flaw causing this issue. Not all of them but more than enough that it is evident that the problem is a real one. I guess my obsession is saying there is a problem, looks like yours, Shun, is saying it is not.
     
  21. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    My real obsession is people such as yourself telling me and others that there is no "real" problem with the D600 and that we are nit picking over a non issue, when the only experience you have with the D600 is testing an early test model for a short time and only shooting 1,700 frames.​
    Mike, please provide a reference where I started that there is no real problem with the D600's dust issue.
    My other obsession with you is your refusal to answer a simple question I have asked you at least four times now. So I will ask one more time. Please explain why you do not believe this problem is a design flaw and unique to the D600 when every reported dust/oil problem is in the upper left corner. This is NOT random dust Shun.​
    I don't know the issue well enough to comment whethere there is or is not a design flaw on the D600. We all know that Roger Cicala feels that there is one, and I am sure he deals with a lot more D600 bodies than I have.
    A design flaw should affect every unit, at least until the design is changed. What I do know is that there are plenty of D600 without any serious problems. Therefore, as long as you have the right to hold Nikon responsible so that they either repair or replace any defective until, there should be little concerns for the consumer (although dealing with warranty repair and exchange is a pain). There will be some "lemons" for any camera model, not just the D600.
    I also do not think it is costing Nikon that much to repair/service these cameras. Pretty sure these are not high paid techs doing repairs. More likely people making minimum wage. They are doing a two minute cleaning job and maybe changing out the mirror box. Would be shocked if it took a total of ten minutes. And it seems, from reports, that the problem is returning on some repaired units.​
    That is all conjecture and speculation. If a "two-minute cleaning job" from someone who makes minimum wage can fix most of such problems, why don't people just learn to clean the sensor themselves, which is actually what I have been advocating as the first thing D600 owners (or another other DSLR owner) should attempt if they run into dust problems. See the 2nd post on this thread.
    However, just take the OP of this thread as an example, Nikon replaced the entire shutter mechanism on his D600. That is a job for a trained tech and would cost Nikon a few hundred dollars, on a camera which only retails at $2000. Therefore, that unit is clearly a net loss for Nikon, not to mention that further warranty repar seems necessary (hot shoe, etc.) at this point.
    I love the camera and would buy another one. I would recommend my friends buy it, and I have a few times.​
    That is puzzling. So your camera is actually acceptable. How are you dealing with this dust issue on your D600 that you keep on complaining about? Are you cleaning it yourself, and if so, how often? Have you ever sent it back to Nikon for repair or exchange?
    I think that kind of real experience, rather than your speculation, is a lot more helpful to our members here.
     
  22. Hi, Shun. I agree with you that cleaning the sensor is quite a simple job that the user can carry out himself easily and quickly. However, hasn't Nikon pretty emphatically made clear that cleaning the sensor yourself voids the warranty? If that is indeed the case, then it's kind of tough at present to see the worth of investing in a camera that has at least a significant chance of demonstrating the oil-spot problem, but on which you're not allowed to perform the easiest and quickest remedy yourself--at least during the first year that you own it. Perhaps Nikon needs to exercise some leeway regarding that part of their warranty terms, if they are indeed getting many complaints about stuff on the sensor?
    I've rented a D800 for a weekend, and it was brilliant. I wouldn't buy one right now, because the resolution is really overkill for most of what I do (I rented because I had a client who *needed* to make huge prints, and we were both very happy indeed with the results), I'd have to upgrade my computer gear at the same time, and the camera alone is really rather expensive. The D600 seems to hit the sweet spot for resolution, performance and price, and would be very appealing as a studio camera. Based on what I've seen myself and read, both the D600 and the D800 are not just good cameras, they're *great* cameras. But like with most new technology, there seem to be some bugs that Nikon has to work out that haven't been fully addressed yet, at least with the D600, that may keep it from reaching its full potential. (As you pointed out, these problems don't seem to affect *all* units--or even most--so they're probably not design flaws. There may be a hiccup somewhere in the production chain that can be fixed when Nikon gets a handle on where and why exactly it's happening.)
    I'm never an early adopter of new technology, as I like to let others test things out in real world conditions and report their findings. (Several of my friends expressed envy that I had had the prudence not to "upgrade" to iOS 6 right away in light of the problem with the Apple Maps app.) Reports like we're getting here are valuable to me--and I'm sure others--in deciding when all the kinks have been worked out, and it's time to go ahead and make the jump. And I'm certain that Nikon will address any problems when they become aware of them--as you've said, it wouldn't make economic sense for them *not* to do so.
    Hey, I *love* Nikon stuff! And I demand a lot from it. I've got loads of old MF Nikkors I still use alongside my AF gear because they're so good, and after I wrote my (admittedly rather ill-mannered) previous note, I spent almost 45 minutes cleaning chocolate, paint and other crud from the Notting Hill Carnival off my FE/MD-12 and lenses. I've been spoiled by how good, tough and dependable Nikon products have always been, even in difficult situations, and at some point I'm definitely gonna get a D600 or D800. I just want to make sure they're as reliable as the rest of my gear--as I'm certain that Nikon will ensure that they are soon as they can--before I do.
     
  23. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Hi, Shun. I agree with you that cleaning the sensor is quite a simple job that the user can carry out himself easily and quickly. However, hasn't Nikon pretty emphatically made clear that cleaning the sensor yourself voids the warranty?​
    I am not aware that Nikon has stated that cleaning the sensor yourself would void the warranty. If anybody has a reference to such, I would appreciate that they can post a link. Most likely, that is merely some internet myth.
    In particular, if you merely clean the sensor with a blower, without any physical contact, how would Nikon ever know you have done self cleaning?
    I just did a quick search and found this page on Nikon USA's web site. It looks like they have run it by some lawyer so that there is more than a sufficient legal disclaimer that if you damage the sensor (or actually the low-pass filter on top of it) during cleaning, Nikon would charge you to fix it. Otherwise, Nikon USA actually provides instructions on how to clean the sensor yourself, including wet cleaning with cleaning fluid and physical contact: https://support.nikonusa.com/app/an...are-these-spots-and-how-do-i-get-rid-of-them?
    In reality, unless you stick a screwdrive into the mirrorbox to clean the sensor with, as long as you use reasonable care, the chance that you will damage the low-pass filter even during wet cleaning, thus resulting with a non-warranty damage repair, is very remote. IMO, Nikon's legal disclamer is simply over the top.
    Cameras are now high-tech electronics, which get out of date very quickly. I am now an early adapter of new models because I push my equipment very hard and can take advantage of a lot of the new capabilities. Since 2007, I have bought a D300, D700, D7000, D800E, and D7100 all within the first 2, 3 months since each model became available, respectively. So far each one is as flawless as it can be. However, if you can wait a couple of years, you will enjoy some deep discounts as a two-year-old DSLR is now considered fairly "old."
     
  24. Shaun almost every comment you post on this issue you downplay it and keep saying it's more than likely just owners looking at files at f/22 and "all DLSRs with have dust." Do I need to pull every one of your comments to show this? That's pretty much saying it is not a real problem. You know as much about the problem as most people. I know you have read enough post about the problem to form an opinion. If hundreds of people are reporting the same problem in the same location of the sensor common sense would lead most to believe there is indeed a unique problem with this camera.
    I have added the fact that I would buy the D600 again in every one of my post on this. Unless you are not reading my post I'm not sure why you are surprised by this. I had my camera cleaned at the shop where I bought it because I had an upcoming wedding and did not have time to send it back to Nikon. So far the problem has not returned but I have not shot a lot of frames since the wedding. I am keeping a close watch. I've also stated almost every time that so far it is not a problem that can not be worked around but it does take a lot of extra time to fix the photos in PP that I should not have to spend. Not with a $2000 camera.
    Also I'm done complaining about the problem. I have just responded to others post asking about the issue with the D600.
     
  25. One more thing that I'm confused about Shun. You say Roger Cicala is sure there is a design flaw. And as you stated he deals with a lot of D600s. I'm pretty sure you disagree with Roger, but you are 100% sure about the reports of a couple of professional photographers who each shoot with the D600. And you even stated in another post that if this photographer reports his D600 as Ok than you have no reason to believe that every other D600 should not also be perfect. So you are on board with a photographer who owns one, maybe two, D600s but not a man you I'm sure handles more D600s in a week than any photographer will ever even see in their lifetime. Very strange.
     
  26. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Shaun almost every comment you post on this issue you downplay it and keep saying it's more than likely just owners looking at files at f/22 and "all DLSRs with have dust."​
    Suggesting that I "downplay" the D600 dust issue is very unfair. I always tell people to check new D600 cameras out carefully and especially look for dust issues, but they should use apertures we commonly use rather than f22. If there are problems, do hold Nikon responsible and make sure that they either repair any problems or exchange for a new, trouble-free one.
    Of course it is unrealistic to expect every D600 rolling out from the factory is perfect (Nikon could have done that, but at some totally prohibitive cost), but every D600 people own should at least be close to perfect. When it is not, be it the dust problem, AF problem, or whatever that is out of spec, make sure that you get Nikon to correct it.
    So you are on board with a photographer who owns one, maybe two, D600s but not a man you I'm sure handles more D600s in a week than any photographer will ever even see in their lifetime. Very strange.​
    Mike, have you paid attention to the chronological order of events?
    • On 13th September, 2012, Nikon announced the D600 and started shipping them later on that month: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aofD
    • Roger Cicala posted his article about the D600 dust/oil issue on 22nd October, 2012, barely a month since production D600 bodies became available. While Cicala suggests that there seems to be a (small) design flaw on the D600's shutter, at least on the early ones within the first months of availability, he never suggests that the D600 is something people should avoid.

    At least I am not aware of any updated information from Cicala since 10 months ago. Meanwhile, plenty of people have reported that the D600 they purchase in 2013 have no significant dust/oil issues that we need to worry about. (That is why whether Nikon understands the cause of this problem and, if necessary, takes corrective measure is important.) Even Mike Plavchak yourself has pointed out:
    I had my camera cleaned at the shop where I bought it because I had an upcoming wedding and did not have time to send it back to Nikon. So far the problem has not returned but I have not shot a lot of frames since the wedding.​
    If all it takes is one cleaning (or even 2, 3 cleanings) at a camera store, and that is something most of us photographers can do ourselves, I indeed wonder what the big fuss is all about?
    Don't you see your own contradiction when you simultaneously claim that:
    • would buy a D600 again and recommend it to friends
    • the D600 has a "design flaw" and "real problems," issues you can't stop talking about
     
  27. My D600 Story: Purchased D600 with kit lens in May 2013, after 3 weeks spots appeared, after 4 weeks spots were massive. Like so many others, I sent the body to Nikon and received it back 3 weeks later with a new shutter mech and a cleaning. Out of the box, it still had spots, not as many as before, but definitely still there. Back to nikon for a second time, the D600 is returned after a week and half. All they did was repeat the cleaning. Again out of the box - SPOTS ARE STILL THERE! I call Nikon and ask for a supervisor and I ask for a product replacement. She tells me the camera needs to be evaluated, so back it goes a third time. The camera arrived at the service center yesterday and I am waiting to hear from them.
    My prior experience tells me not to hold my breath waiting for them to contact me. In the past, when I was promised someone would contact me they never did. Under no circumstances will they give you a direct number with an extension, or even and email address where a single person will help you solve the problem, or even know what the status of your repair is. Dealing with Nikon on this has been the worst customer service experience I have ever had.
    I have been a Nikon user since 1991 with a N4004. Since then I have owned a 990, D90, D7000, and now a D600. I wonder if anyone in upper management at Nikon realizes how much chatter there is online about this problem and about how bad their customer service is? Is the person incharge of this product line "older" and out of touch with the power of Social Media and the ability of customers to tell their story? Does Nikon realize - or even care - that they are ruining their reputation?
    One last thing - go ahead and try to add a negative review to the NikonUSA site for this product. It will not get through. I have tried three times and received a rejection. I have carefully read the guidelines and my review is well within them - I wrote about my experience with the product and added one photo that shows the problem.
    I would not recommend this product to anyone, and I will be very reluctant to buy a nikon anything in the future.
    Greg
     
  28. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Gregory Ortiz, as I said, actual user experiences, positive or negative, is at least what I would like to see here. If I were in your situation, I would start pressuring Nikon to replace your D600 with a brand new one.
    There is one more thing I can do. I'll bring this thread to Nikon's attention, especially Gregory's experience. Whether Nikon will do anything about it or not is up to them to decide. Again, I don't work for them nor for photo.net. I don't really care whether Nikon sells a lot of cameras or not, although as a customer, I would like to see a healthy Nikon. To me, what is important is that our photo.net members here receive good advices.
     
  29. Shun Cheung, any help you could provide bring this to Nikon's attention would be very appreciated.

    By the way your portfolio is stunning!

    Best,
    Greg
     
  30. Gregory,
    Your experience with D-600 issue is gut wrenching, as I continue to keep my eye on this issue because of my interest in the D-600 one can't help just to sit back, and wait for Nikon to get on top of this. It's my understanding with the D-600 that Nikon switched shutter box suppliers intern inheriting a design flaw via the new shutter causing the lubricant to move throughout places like the sensor surface creating a real mess unlike anything I've heard of with precision instruments. I'm wondering though amid the angst that goes with something like this, you would presume the issue is caused by a, ' Older' person. Perhaps its the opposite. Maybe the guys, and gals that made the F-series camera's need to step up, and show the way.
     
  31. Don and everyone else,
    No offense intended with the "older" reference in my post. At 56 years old and a card carrying AARP member, I consider myself to be "older" My point was sometimes people become unaware of how things have changed and they cannot control the narrative because of the power of the internet. I wrote that because it seems odd to me that a leading edge company like Nikon would allow their reputation to take such a beating over an issue like this. They can suppress the reviews on NikonUSA.com, but take a look at the reviews on Amazon, B&H, Adoroma, Abes of Maine, DPReview.com and, of course here. The cat is out of the bag! The Nikon response of ignoring it makes me wonder if they even know what is happening on-line.

    I agree about bringing back the F-series team to handle this!
    Greg
     
  32. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Ok, I just sent an e-mail to my contacts at Nikon USA. However, please don't expect miracles. I am just another Nikon customer like many of you are.
    Again, Greg, if I were you, I would expect nothing less than a trouble-free, perfectly working D600 body. After 2, 3 repair attempts, you should be talking about a complete replacement.
    And I hope people know that when the F5 was new back in 1996, it had a serious battery indicator problem. A friend of mine bought two back then, and both F5 required multiple repairs. Eventually Nikon replaced one of them with a brand new one after several repairs over 2, 3 years. I waited a year before I bought my F5 in late 1997, and my has been great. The difference is that the F5 had an 8-year product cycle. Today, electronics are "old" after 2, 3 years.
    Between a friend and me, we had several F4 from 1989, 1990 and 1992. He found out that Nikon had made something like 8 minor changes on the F4 from 1989 to 1992, and my 1990 version had like 3 out of the 8. E.g., the 1992 F4 requires two clicks to remove the viewfinder so that it would be much harder to remove it unintentionally. In other words, even back in the Nikon F to F6 era, they gradually improved the cameras. It was not like Nikon just got everything right immediately.
     
  33. Hi Fellow photographer/Nikon Lovers,
    With respect to every member's comments and views I just want to update status on my D600.
    - Just now saw Nikon shipped my camera back ( A nice surprise from last experience where I had to send 12 emails and 10 calls for 3 weeks)
    - When I checked status on my Camera yesterday. It was showing status as B2( Moderate repair/ Major parts replacement). I am assuming this means shutter assembly change as last time. If thats is the case the then surely I have problem with this D600. How can part malfunction after 4 weeks of repair.
    - I will update all of you once I see my camera on Friday ( I am out of town).
    - I love my D600. These issues are just making me jittery and anxious ( $2800 with lens kit on stake that's a big money for me to spent on a hobby)
    - Loved Nikon my entire life staring from FM to last D50 I owned.
    Shun, please do influence Nikon with these issues and hope to get resolution very soon.
    Will keep you posted on progress on coming weeks.
     
  34. It's hard to imagine todays electronics are old after 2-3 years, or hard to accept, and I'm not disputing this, If that's true, and I don't have the means to know, that plays right into the built in obsolescence that we all hear about from time to time. I'm not reporting this to rub salt into any wounds here, but as an avid Nikon lover I still own and use my, F3HP, FA, and the later FM3a. I still use these camera's! Laugh if you will, but whats going on here? The F3, and FA have had their CLAs, and the FM3a is ready at this time. They just work! I'm not a heavy shooter, but not light either. I got the F3 in 1984, and the FA in 1985, the FM3a in 2005. I use the camera's, they work never, ever! an issue with mechanical, or electrical break down. I hope I didn't jinx myself now by announcing this. Yes, I think companies everywhere need to re-think what it is their doing with their products. Maybe I've just been lucky.
     
  35. So I got into digital photography with a D-40. Moved up to a D-90 and received a D-5000 with the purchase of a 70-200mm lens I bought to shoot a family wedding. None of these had the dust/oil issues that my D-7000 and D-600 have had.
    Both of these cameras have increased my love of image making. I have read time and again about sending cameras to the manufacturer to have a sensor cleaning with minimal results. I soon realized that for the cost of sending them both in, I could buy a sensor cleaning kit.
    I researched on line, saw all the warnings and the few tutorials of how to do it. Finally I made the leap and spend just a few hundred dollars. I now clean both my camera sensors every month or so. I have no more oil or dust issues with either camera and continue to enjoy the images I make with them.
    If you really like the camera and results it you produce with it, this is an easy work around.
     
  36. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    As expected, Nikon politely acknowledged that they have received my e-mail, with a link to this thread. How they deal with it (or not deal with it) is up to them to decide. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic wand that I can just wave and all of a sudden, all of our camera problems are fixed; it simply does not work that way.
    And I hope that people realize that in some occasions, photographer self sensor cleaning cannot fix some issues. Sometimes even after Nikon replaces the shutter/mirror box, some problem persists. I have no statistic on how many D600 belong to that category, but personally, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a D600 today, although I think Nikon should put a better AF system, more suitable for FX, on it. In case you run into a lemon D600, make sure Nikon fix or replace it properly. There is absolutely no reason that one should accept a defective DSLR, be it a D600 or some Canon ....
    To Hermant and Greg, I am afraid that there isn't much more I can do. Just keep in mind that there are plenty of fine D600 cameras out there. The one you currently have may be beyond repair, but there is no reason that you are not using one that is trouble free. It probably will require some more frustration on your part to get there.
     
  37. I have an update: yesterday a senior manager for customer service called me and apologized that my case had not been properly escalated. She told me that she would would have a Japanese Technician look at my camera. When I asked for a product replacement, she told me that since it is in for dust, it is environmental, and they don't replace products for that. Since I was thrilled just to have her attention, I did not argue the point, and decided to wait to hear what Japanese tech finds. Having said that, Nikon replaced the shutter mechanism - which can't be cheap - which is clearly a defect in workmanship, not environmental. My concern is that the spots that remain on my camera after 2 cleaning are actually damage to the low-pass filter from the "dust"/oil/lubricant from the shutter mechanism. The user manual stresses that the low-pass filter is "delicate and easily damaged"
    So dust is their story and they are sticking with it. Thank you Shun Cheung, a day after your email I received this call, perhaps unrelated, but it is nice to finally receive some response for a defective product that costs $2k.
     
  38. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Thank you Shun Cheung, a day after your email I received this call, perhaps unrelated, but it is nice to finally receive some response for a defective product that costs $2k.​
    Please do not thank me. I have no idea whether the call you received from a Nikon senior manager has anything to do with my e-mail to Nikon, bringing this thread to their attention.
    However, it is Nikon's responsibility to make sure that their products are not defective. I don't expect every D600 rolling out from the factory to be 100% defect free; otherwise, we could be talking about a $20,000 camera instead of $2000, but Nikon certainly can correct defective ones after sales.
     
  39. Gregory,
    So they replaced the shutter that caused the oil, and dirt issue that contaminated the low pass filter, but now you are stuck with a damaged low pass filter? Is there any indication they would also fix the damaged filter in spite of what the user manual says, I don't think the user manual was written anticipating that there was a built in flaw to the shutter that inadvertently caused the end result issue, which is degradated images. This just seems so awful to me, although like you, I'm glad to see Nikon respond, still its on them to provide a product you paid for that does what its supposed to do. I don't see that happening.
     
  40. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    So they replaced the shutter that caused the oil, and dirt issue that contaminated the low pass filter, but now you are stuck with a damaged low pass filter?​
    Don, Gregory only mentions that he has concerns that there may be damage on his D600's low pass filter. That is very different from he is actually "stuck with a damaged low pass filter." Of course I haven't seen his D600, but I kind of doubt that his low pass filter is indeed damaged, but in case it is, I am sure he can get Nikon to fix that (or better yet, get Nikon to replace it with a new one). One way or another, he won't be stuck with any damage.
    Let's not get carried away.
    I have cleaned quite a few DSLRs' sensors/low pass filters. As long as you clean it with care, it is not easy to damage them at all. The language Nikon uses (on their web site) is typical lawyer disclaimers. Whether you like it or not, sensor cleaning is part of DSLR ownership. You can do that yourself or pay someone else to clean it for you. Therefore, those low pass filters are designed to take a fair amount of reasonable cleaning.
     
  41. Shun,
    That's encouraging, Thank you. It does make sense that the sensor would, or should withstand proper technique in cleaning, using the proper materials.
    I hope that my mere insistence in trying to understand the precise issues pertaining to the D-600 isn't creating more confusion, as I am actually on the precipice of purchasing a D-600, and I'm vigorously assessing the issue to discern its realities. I'm hoping, if the oil issue is a real one, that it is constrained to the first run production, which intern indicates the problem is confined.
     
  42. Hi All,
    Wanted to update you all. My camera was back from service with sensor and low pass filter cleaned. Images did not show any issues. To my surprise camera was never checked for hot shoe issue. On top of that Nikon sent me an estimate to repair my flash ( USD102 for SB 400, flash) for perfectly fine working flash. I used my camera for local NPS CLS work shop and the instructor was also acknowledged some issue with command control system and hotshoe.
    With great disappointment I called up Nikon and Costco. Nikon as usual wants my camera back ( 3rd time) with replacement request letter. Costco had taken up my issue with Nikon warranty dept. I am hoping to have this resolved soon.
    D600 is a great disappointment for me.
     
  43. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Wanted to update you all. My camera was back from service with sensor and low pass filter cleaned. Images did not show any issues. To my surprise camera was never checked for hot shoe issue. On top of that Nikon sent me an estimate to repair my flash ( USD102 for SB 400, flash) for perfectly fine working flash. I used my camera for local NPS CLS work shop and the instructor was also acknowledged some issue with command control system and hotshoe.
    With great disappointment I called up Nikon and Costco. Nikon as usual wants my camera back ( 3rd time) with replacement request letter. Costco had taken up my issue with Nikon warranty dept. I am hoping to have this resolved soon.
    D600 is a great disappointment for me.​
    Hemant, your story suggests that Nikon's repair department is doing a very poor job (not merely bad job), i.e. not fixing a hot shoe problem that was apparently fine before their first repair, and they want to charge you to fix a working SB-400 .... Your D600 purchase may have led to some very bad experience; however, the current problem is not really the D600 per se.
     
  44. Update to my D600 saga: I received my D600 back today after the third visit to the Nikon service center, I'm pleased to say that my camera is as good as new!
    So to recap, I experienced massive spots after six weeks and about 3,000 clicks on a new D600. The first time the body was sent in for warranty service the shutter mechanism was replaced, and the camera was cleaned. When it was returned to me there were still about a dozen spots visible on the sensor/low-pass filter. I called Nikon and sent it to them a second time, and when I received it back it was no different then when I sent it in. The service order indicated that they cleaned it a second time - though now I wonder if that is true. After having my camera returned to me twice with significant spots present, I asked to speak with a supervisor and I asked for a product replacement.
    I was issued a THIRD return authorization for the same problem. Last week the senior custom service manager called me and promised the camera would be looked at by "a Japanese tech" and the problem would be resolved. She was insistent that I was experiencing an environmental issue, for which they do not issue product replacements, and the camera would be satisfactory when returned, which it is.
    My observations: Nikon is hurting their reputation in this VERY competitive market by sticking with the environmental dust story. Clearly, you do not replace a shutter mechanism (at great expense) for environmental dust. The source of the problem, be it oil, lubricant, or some other material, is hard to remove. The self-cleaning function of the camera does nothing to help this issue. To those who have proposed that we should accept that DSLR owners should accept that cleaning the sensor is part of ownership, I say the pros at Nikon had a hard time cleaning mine of whatever this is; what are the chances that an untrained consumer could successfully master this?
    Having said this, I love this camera. The D600 is a GREAT design and concept! The execution and manufacture is the issue. I was thinking about what would happen if my camera was not successfully cleaned. I looked at the Canon 6D and was not pleased with how it measured up to the specs of my D600, and the thought of changing all of my gear, six lenses and two speed lights, to Canon was not appealing.
    If anyone at Nikon is listening: we love your cameras and lenses; we have been loyal customers. It's not the "crime", it's the cover-up that brings people (and companies) down. We already know there is problem. Do the right thing. Take care of the people who have spent their hard earned money on your products. Most of us have spent this money for a hobby we love, and we are loyal to YOUR brand. We are not pros, and we don't have a lot of leverage, we're just the men and women who buy your stuff and keep you in business. We would like you to care about us as much as we care about cameras, lens, speed lights and our passion for this art.
     
  45. Hi All,
    Update on My D600 saga.
    A very good news for me. Nikon has finally replaced my D600 with new body. Really appreciate this gesture from Nikon. Finally it ends with a good note.
    I was very happy with the way case was handled by last supervisor at Nikon Service. I had great help from Costco Concierge on followup with Nikon and weekly updates to me.
    Shun: Thanks to you for forwarding thread to Nikon. I am sure this played some part in the whole episode.
    I am hoping to do the test run this weekend.
    Thanks all for your support and suggestions. It helps and system works.
    Hemant
     
  46. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Shun: Thanks to you for forwarding thread to Nikon. I am sure this played some part in the whole episode.​
    Again, all I did was sending an e-mail to my contacts with Nikon and their PR firm, providing them a link to this very thread. And as expected, they politely acknowledged that they got my e-mail. For one thing it wasn't all that much work from my part, and it is not clear to me whether that actually helped either Memant or Gregory. Therefore, I don't want to take any credit when none is due. However, I would only send such e-mail to Nikon when there is a serious problem and especially somewhat wide spread. (So far I might have done so once a year or maybe once every two years, on the average.) If I sent such e-mail 2, 3 times a month, eventually they would ignore me.
    It is very much in Nikon's own interest to resolve your issue fairly quickly. After 2, 3 warranty repairs, their cost on that particular unit is going to pile up. It is much easier for them to give you a new unit without any issues, and let them figure out how the refurbish ones that have difficult issues.
     
  47. So here is the final update to my D600 saga:
    In September, after returning my D600 to Nikon three times, I received it in good working order.
    That was short lived. In November a large number of spots reappeared. I called the service center and requested to speak to a supervisor, I asked for product replacement again since this is the fourth service call for the same problem. I was told "a new camera would not be possible and my D600 can and will be repaired". Nikon replaced the shutter for the second time, cleaned the camera for the fourth time, and return the camera to me in mid-November.
    In February significant spots appeared, making this the fifth problem. I called and escalated yet again. This time Nikon replaced the D600 with a D610.
    I also opened a complaint against Nikon with the New York State Consumer Protection Agency and the New York Better Business Bureau, and upload the complaints to the Nikon Service center website. Did that help get a replacement or did Nikon just finally decide to do the right thing for a customer?
    Call me a skeptic, but I wonder if Nikon knows the lawyers are circling, and that is the reason for replacing cameras now. At least two law firms are currently collecting information and potential clients for a class action against Nikon. (Morgan & Morgan and Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein). I have a friend who is an attorney and has defended companies in class action law suits; he told me the law firm that can certify a class in the D600 defect may well collect 7 figures in legal fees in addition to whatever they recover for D600 owners. That is much better incentive for Nikon than customer satisfaction.
     

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