Constructive Crticism

I have been reading many post for the past few months, and I have noticed a disturbing trend. It seems like when

someone asks for a critique it is translated as "please bash the work I have done." In one such post a member

came out with the comment that "i never ask other photographers for a critique" his reason was that we over analyse

the image. I can see that, but that is also what we are looking for to take the next step. I think that the issue has

more to do with the way the message is delivered. The amount of knowledge available in this forum is emense due to

the number of quality photographers there are here, so in order to deliver this information in a way that builds the

community I would like to look at positive ways to deliver criticism. (I essentially offer criticism for a living, I'm a

teacher so I have experience, I also have done the research.)

 

1. The person asking for your opinion is not trying to waste you time, they are not joking, and they are not making

fun of you. They are doing the best they can with the information/skill they have.

 

2. Begin with the positives, even it they are hard to find. Nice subject, good exposure, or just commenting on how

they are brave for putting their work out for everyone to see.

 

3. Try to state advice as a positive, not a negative. i.e. Instead of "you really underexposed that image" you could

state "you should try to expose the image for the highlights".

 

4. Don't make it personal. What we are putting out for others to see is already personal enough, no one needs to

read that "your work is no good, and niether are you". To be fair I have never read this exactly, but the messages

often feel that way at times.

 

5. This is for the internet in general. Remember there is a face behind these words/pictures. I often think that we

would never act this way in person but the fact that all we see is a computer sceen takes away some of our

humanity.

 

Disclaimer: I have never asked for a critique in a post, so I am not talking from a personal experience I am just

commenting on what I have read that has been left for others.

 

I would also like to say that the work displayed in the portfolios of the members on this site is amazing, varried, and

inspiring. When I see it I want to find a way to tap into this community to help my photography improve. I assume

others feel the same I just worry that many get scared off.

 

I am just posting this in hopes that it will keep more posts pleasant and allow everyone to step out bravely when

they put their work out for a critique.

"It seems like when someone asks for a critique it is translated as "please bash the work I have done."

 

Maybe they just want an honest answer.

 

The lighting is bad, the head was cropped to tight, there is no emotion, I cannot relate to this picture, what was you trying to say, boring, the composition is wrong, the DOF doesn't make sense, the shadows/highlights are bad, you should have done this, or you should have done that, etc. These are the types of critiques I would like to hear myself from the experts.

 

We live in a very complicated "Politically Correct" world, where it is very hard to say something negative, and also where it is very hard to separate the objective from the subjective.

 

One of the earliest lessons I learned in photography, was to become very Objective. To make it simple, being "objective" is putting yourself in another persons shoes.That is, to see something from another persons eyes, or point of view not just your own.

 

Once you have that objectivity, then you can judge an image on it's merits, rather than on your own personal convictions and beliefs. Now this is not very easy, because Photography is also very 'subjective'. You either like a picture, or you don't. you either connect to it or you don't, you either like a person or you don't. But the focus of a photo critique, should not be on the individual, but on the characteristics that make the photo great.

 

For example, someone takes a picture of their cat, or their new born baby and subjectively thinks, in their own minds, that "this is the greatest picture in the world" ! They are thinking subjectively. But "objective" viewers, who are not emotionally attached to this picture, might think otherwise. They might say to themselves, the lighting is bad, the exposure was wrong, the background is too busy, it is not properly focused and so on.

 

Objectivity lays the standards, but often it's subjectivity that sells pictures ?

 

I had a teacher once who was extremely brutal when it came to critiquing peoples work. This guy worked as an Editor for National Geographic magazine. Not too many people lasted in his classes, but I managed to stick it out. Was that class pleasant ? Nope, but did it make me a better photographer, yes !

 

As far as your question #5, This site is monitored.

People ask for criticism on pics that are terrible; there's just too much wrong to begin with, or the pic seems pointless or of something we just have no interest in. I think most of us will just overlook that pic and go on to the next one, but sometimes the humanity of the photog shows through the request and I make a response. Rather than a comprehensive detailed criticism in language full and dark I just make a suggestion on a single aspect, "I think I would like to see this pic with the left third cropped out. Have you tried that?" or "Sometimes I get a better depth of field with a smaller aperture opening." Don't overwhelm. On the other hand sometimes the shot delivers a reaction that transcends the tech. "That cat looks just like mine." or "Hey, I've been there. I love that site." or "Don't know why but I just love that shot; thanks for posting it. And if you post a critique, don't expect much gratitude. I get maybe one acknowledgment out of ten critiques. But the one in ten is worth in when you have that one thank you that is genuine. Almost 40 years as a teacher makes critiquing positively a habit I just can't seem to break:)

I've noticed that pretty often when I've requested critiques I don't get enough input. When I do request a

critique, it's usually

because I can't settle on a particular look for an image, so I want some suggestions. But guess what? It's hard

to get much useful input. Maybe posters need to be more explicit when requesting the

critique: "Free-for-all image bash! Step right up, folks!"

<p>

Well, that probably won't really work. But what do other people like or dislike about the photo? Will

somebody point out something I ignored or missed? The critique forum probably has the most potential of any of

them to be really useful because it concerns the image. Just the image. That's what we're all trying to make

here. Maybe there isn't enough of a distinction between critiquing, validating, and just plain old enjoying the

photos submitted to the critique forum. Maybe people dwell too much on that distinction - or lack thereof - when

they decide to critique or not. I'll try to be more explicit in my future critique requests to see whether that

will help a bit. It also probably wouldn't hurt to offer more critiques - yeah, I know, I've been slacking in

that department lately. I'll should get back into it eventually.

<p>

What it boils down to is this: if I want to hang a print of one of my own shots in my house for my own

amusement, I'll print it how I want it -

simple. But if I want other people to see it, I want it to appeal to them while showing what I want it to show.

The balance between the two is hard to achieve sometimes. Other times, I don't want to allow any wiggle room.

<i>This</i> is how you are supposed to see this picture, and that's that.

<p>

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

This has been discussed so many times. I guess I will leave it at "different strokes for different folks" as the community here is so varied that there is got to be inconsistency for a partcular critique.

 

Just take whatever you find useful, and laugh on the one you don't, thats what I do. I have always taken by the way, except the ratings which are a person's prespective. But isn't that's why we put it on critique. To see to what % of people did the photograph appealed. The more the % the better it is.

 

I will leave it at this. Regards

Most of the critiques I read are vaguely complimentary, and I can't blame anyone for trying to make it clear that he or she genuinely wants to learn and is willing to take a little heat. I agree with your point that people are most likely to listen and learn when we are discussing their strengths, but we should not shy from bringing up obvious weaknesses, or from sharing our personal preferences when we identify them as such. If we can't share the good and the bad, we can't be on the level with each other.

I have been a Photo.net member for seven years and during that time I have watched the quality and quantity of critiques go steadily downhill. At one time there were several knowledgeable and even professional photographers who were willing to give frank and constructive advice. But people took things personally and feathers got ruffled. Prima donnas got their knickers in a knot and threats were made. Since then the membership numbers have increased considerably and the majority don't give a hoot about honest critique. The requirement to post an image in the critique forum inorder to qualify for the TRP rate recent queue puts a huge number of photos requesting critiques that aren't really wanted. That in turn results in streams of three-word comments, and when amongst those is placed a real critique, it frequently is ignored, argued or abused. In my personal experience, when posting a request for critique, ask a specific question about your image and it will give respondents something to focus on. I have also become increasingly discouraged by the lack of response to critiques I have made. It's just plain good manners to respond to someone's efforts to reply to a request. I'm not talking about the Wows and the Nice Pics, but the helpful comments and suggestions.

The site seems to be getting quite slow lately. Very few comments, almost no views (atleast on my photos) and very few rates (hence few views). I've never had one of my critiques abused, but i sometimes feel that it is ignored. In general though, the site seems to be slowing down.

I agree with you, Dan. There seems to be less participation in the critique forum. That may be a function of the fact that so

many people have joined and the administrators have been slow to address what they know to be a failing critique/rate

situation. Until they do something to encourage people to critique and rate and discourage them from submitting photos for

critique unless they do some critiquing themselves, it will keep getting worse.

I tried to read this thread, I couldn't get through it. Hence shouldn't it be moved to the Philosophy of Critique Forum?

Hanna nailed it. The folks who were willing to offer honest, constructive critiques have been discouraged. They got tired of the gripes from folks who wanted only unfettered praise and who try to redefine what a critique is rather than accepting the well established standards for artistic criticism.

 

Most folks don't want or even understand what a critique is. They want tips on improving their photography, which is not the purpose of artistic criticism. They want praise. They will accept offhand comments and remarks such as "Nice photo," or "I visited that place last year, it sure is beautiful" or "I have a car just like that one" or "My girlfriend is a redhead too but she won't pose nude for me like yours does."

 

It's not up to photo.net administration to improve the way critiques work. Photo.net provides the big community center with furnished spaces, chairs, tables, easels, a functional interface, everything you need to get started. It's up to the membership to do the rest. Demand better of yourselves and of each other.

Lex--

 

Though you are usually right on target, I think you're off on this one. I believe it is up to the administrators to create a

better method for critiquing. After all, they have supplied the now anachronistic and unworkable rule that 4 photos per

day per member may be submitted for critique. Too many! So it would be up to the admin to change that. A system is a

system. They have provided us a great site with a great layout. They moderate the forums well. Imagine if they didn't!

They keep things in order. They decide how the TRP will work and a million other things. To put some effort into ensuring

a bit of fair play, so that those asking endlessly for critiques are encouraged to offer critiques to others doesn't seem an

unreasonable request. I don't think (here we probably agree) that they should monitor what we say in the critiques and if

people are going to be babies about what others say to them, the admins should simply let them be babies. Babies cry a

lot but then they get over it. Setting in place a more workable system, in my opinion, should be a priority, and from what

I understand, it is. It's just taking time.

about 2 weeks ago, some guy posted a thread over in the wedding forum, it was called something like "should i quit my day job?" he shot some images at his daughters wedding,(a pro was there also) it was a joke that i clearly saw in the title of the thread, he got bashed really bad. ive noticed the critiques over in that forum are the most destructive i have ever seen. I have seen some really nice wedding pictures there taken my folks that it was there first time shooting a wedding, bash bash bash from the uppity so called pros, whatever... everyone has to start someplace.

I saw that whole "day job" dicussion. I don't think some of the members either got or liked the joke.

 

On second thought - they got it, but were offended by it.

http://www.photo.net/photo/7467140

 

Need I say more?

Perfect example. Hannah offers constructive criticism and another person - not even the photographer who's work is the subject of the critique - goes ballistic and attacks her. (Of course, that fellow is in "ballistic mode" 24/7, so it's nothing new.)

 

During the past week I've seen some unbelievable remarks on some photos. They aren't remotely qualified as "critiques". They're simply offhand remarks insulting the photographer for choosing a particular subject matter.

 

On the feedbag forum today is a complaint from someone whose photo received a couple of 5/5 ratings. Not 3/3. He couldn't tolerate anything less than effusive praise, simply because others had rated it 7/7.

 

Folks, Flickr awaits you with open arms, animated sparkly gold medal GIFs and special invitations to exclusive mutual admiration societies ... as long as you remember that every photo must receive nothing less than effusive praise and reciprocal animated sparkly gold medal GIFs, or you will be ostracized.

 

Come back to photo.net after you've been diagnosed with diabetes from excessive intake of sugar.

BTW, Hannah, I've reported to admin those abusive remarks against you. His comments were completely unacceptable and abusing the critique section to insult either the photographer or other critiques should not be tolerated. You were remarkably restrained in your own response.

Lex, thanks for your response. I have to admit I had to go out into my garden and bash a few plants before I responded to John's enlightened comment.