B&H returns: shipping costs *not* refunded?

<p>I just learned from B&H that on my lens return they wouldn't cover the return shipping cost nor refund the original shipping cost. I am returning a Nikkor 16-35 f4 as I wasn't happy with it. The copy didnt seem particularly sharp. Given that it was part of a larger order of over $10K, it was disappointing. This is one of my first major B&H purchases after several years of buying just filters etc from them.</p>

<p>Have other PNers got the same return policy from B&H or is this because I'm a 'new' shopper on their site? Also, does Adorama have the same / similar policy? Would anything out there photog related compare to Amazon's return policy?</p>

<p>Having largely bought from Amazon, I suppose I took their hassle-free, great return policy for granted. I was surprised that B&H has such a great reputation for easy shopping that this aspect of their return policy doesn't get more news.</p>

<p>I suppose I will have to very carefully choose between B&H and Amazon based on the likelihood of a potential return. Most often the costs are the same, but B&H may carry more variety.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If you do not get satisfaction, your best bet is feedback.<br /> Go on all sites you are members on and give then hell.<br>

At least it will make you feel better.</p>

<p>LL Bean and Amazon are a couple shining examples of great customer service and great return policies. Most aren't like that. None of the big NYC stores offer return shipping and never have, to my knowledge. If there was something tangibly wrong with an item they probably would via an exchange.</p>

<p>Seems reasonable to me. If you return something because you don't like it, you should be expected to pay the shipping. If there's a problem with it, then that's another story, but in that case you'd be returning for exchange or repair.</p>

<p>I don't see why any company should be expected to cover shipping costs either to you or back to the company if you decide you simply don't like the item. Some might just to keep customers happy, but in that case all the other customers are paying for that service via higher retail prices. Have you compared L.L.Bean prices to other stores. Their quality is good, but on comparable items they are not the cheapest place in town. Amazon only have free returns on a few categories (basically clothing) and cameras and electronics aren't included.</p>

<p>Many companies who offer "free shipping" will deduct actual shipping costs from the credit given for return items which are not defective. Shipping in that case is only "free" if you keep it. Again "free" in this context means that everybody pays for it via higher prices. There is no free lunch. <em>Someone</em> pays for everything.</p>

<p>Ditto Amazon for customer service. Best around. But I do wonder how long they can maintain that, considering they rarely show a profit - although reportedly that's because they plow earnings back into R&D to create better content serving devices (e-readers and tablets). Never a hassle with undoing an accidental purchase, pre-paid returns, etc.</p>

<p>But if Amazon is a perfect 10, B&H isn't far behind in my experience with 'em - maybe a 9.5 at worst. You can ask B&H a question and get an informed answer without high pressure sales or bait and switch tricks. And the B&H website is better. Amazon's is still a confusing mess for some stuff.</p>

<p>On the one hand it seems as if he said it did have a problem, but it also seems like he would have asked for a replacement if that was the only issue. With such a big order though you'd think they would have worked harder to keep his business. Sometimes Amazon is annoying when they insist on a return instead of a replacement.</p>

<p>If it were faulty merchandise I would expect them to cover shipping. KEH does exactly that. If you are sending it back because you don't like it I wouldn't expect them to cover the shipping either way.</p>

<p>Rick H.</p>

Amazon doesn't charge shipping either way for a returned item with a problem but I think the last time I returned

something because I decided I didn't want it I was charged shipping. Keh also does that. It seems perfectly reasonable to

me - the merchant is already losing money if I return something that wasn't defective, why should shipping costs be

added to their loss?

<p>It states on B&H website that return shipping charges are the responsibility of the customer. Can't find anything specific about refunding original shipping charges - seems unlikely that these would be refunded though. Often, items with free shipping will incur shipping charges both ways when returned.</p>

<p>It's rarely "free shipping". What vendors really mean is "shipping included", i.e. the cost of the item is adjusted to include the shipping charges. Of course "free shipping" sounds much better and makes you think you're getting a better deal. Until you return something of course...</p>

<p><em><strong>Very</strong> </em>few vendors have both "free shipping"yet refund the full purchase price and pay for return shipping if you don't like something.</p>

<p>You bought the lens from B&H. You bought the "shipping" from a shipping company (FedEx, UPS, USPS, etc.).</p>

<p>If you return the lens to B&H, they will refund the price of the lens. </p>

<p>There's no way to unship something once it arrives at your address. Shipping has already been completed. You can't undo the fact that it was shipped to you. FedEx has done their job, and they expect to get paid for that job. They can't reclaim used fuel.</p>

<p>If you ship the item back, you are shipping it AGAIN. You are incurring ANOTHER shipping charge.</p>

<p>Let's say the costs are as follows.</p>

<p>Lens $600<br>

Shipping to you $40<br>

Shipping back to for a refund $40</p>

<p>Full payment = $600 + $40 + $40 = $680</p>

<p>When you return the lens, the $600 is refunded, but the $80 is not. The item was shipped both ways, and you paid for that service.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Also, does Adorama have the same / similar policy? Would anything out there photog related compare to Amazon's return policy?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I think our policy is pretty similar, actually; if a unit is faulty and you contact me or our main CS department within the first 30 days after purchase we'll usually send a pre-paid label for return. If it is simply 'change-of-mind' then we wouldn't.<br>

Amazon isn't really comparable with Adorama (or B&H); unfortunately, we can't even begin to think about competing with Amazon, which is the world's largest Internet retailer, with fulfilment centers in 12 US States, PLUS, 3 locations in Canada, 4 locations in Scotland, 5 in England, 3 in Wales, 5 in France, 4 in each of Germany and Japan, 3 in China, and 1 in each of Slovakia and Italy.<br>

<br /> Amazon operations, currently, are subsidized by investors who really care only about growth. They are in a position of being able to pay for things by selling stock and can therefore provide twice the service for half the price. I once read that if the market ever catches on Amazon would "fold like a paper castle on a rainy day!"<br />[As someone I admire very much, professionally, said recently: "Amazon can undersell and outmanoeuvre any local New York City electronic retailer"]<br>

<br /> Adorama, on the other hand, is a family business in NYC with a single distribution center in New Jersey....<br>

Don't know whether you caught the news a week or two back, concerning Amazon's ongoing losses?<br>

<br /> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/technology/amazons-revenue-soars-but-no-profit-in-sight.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/technology/amazons-revenue-soars-but-no-profit-in-sight.html</a><br>

<br /> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/technology/sales-are-colossal-shares-are-soaring-all-amazoncom-is-missing-is-a-profit.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/technology/sales-are-colossal-shares-are-soaring-all-amazoncom-is-missing-is-a-profit.html</a><br>

Because Adorama is a specialist photography business, many of our representatives are actually professional photographers as well as being experts in their field, so we believe that we are offering far more than Amazon in terms of specialist customer support and product information, for example, Adorama TV and the Adorama Learning Center.</p>

<p>All that being said, I've just given the heads up on this thread to someone over at B&H, who I'm sure will want to assist you in resolving this as quickly as possible.</p>

<p>Helen Oster<br /> Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador<br /> Helen@adorama.com</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I just learned from B&H that on my lens return they wouldn't cover the return shipping cost nor refund the original shipping cost. I am returning a Nikkor 16-35 f4 as I wasn't happy with it.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>We offer free UPS domestic non-rush return shipping when the reason for the return is our error or to exchange a product that's defective out-of-the-box. Your reason for return is, "I wasn't happy with it." For that, we do not offer free return shipping. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>You can ask B&H a question and get an informed answer without high pressure sales or bait and switch tricks.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thank you. There are retailers with well established credentials for customer service and I hope B&H remains among them forever, but there are few with both well established credentials for customer service and the opportunity to "get an informed answer without high pressure sales or bait and switch tricks."</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong><br /> PS If I have correctly identified the transaction in question (Web No: 1026778185), our customer service department has supplied a pre-paid UPS return label to the customer as a one-time courtesy.<strong><br /></strong></p>

<p>Items purchased from costco.com often to not carry shipping charges. Items can be returned to any warehouse location and the shipping charges (if any) will also be refunded.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Amazon operations, currently, are subsidized by investors who really care only about growth. They are in a position of being able to pay for things by selling stock and can therefore provide twice the service for half the price. I once read that if the market ever catches on Amazon would "fold like a paper castle on a rainy day!"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This would only be true if they were doing secondary offerings which I haven't heard about recently. It's not like Amazon never made a profit. Amazon is investing in their business and they are growing faster than the ecommerce space as a whole. Can Adorama say the same? Amazon's losses are not because they refund shipping. They have loses because they are popping open distribution centers everywhere, expanding into new markets, and building hardware. Amazon could be profitable tomorrow even with refunding shipping if it stopped opening new distribution centers and slashed hardware R&D spending. Bezos is trying to build something. If they slashed expenses to return to consistent profitability their stock price would plummet but I doubt they would go out of business.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>As for the loss, it was smaller than the 60 cents a share, or $274 million, the company lost last year. <strong>Much of the poor 2012 showing was related to an ill-fated investment in LivingSocial</strong>, a daily deals site.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I really doubt they did <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/technology/amazons-revenue-soars-but-no-profit-in-sight.html?_r=0">$274 million</a> in free return shipping for customers that simply didn't like what they bought. I'm not saying Amazon is a good buy as a investment but let's not overblow the impact of free returns on their financials.</p>

<p>Having said all that I have shopped at Adorama and B&H and not had any issues except for a few years ago I used the cheap Smartpost option which was terrible.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>It's not like Amazon never made a profit.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

Amazon rarely makes a profit these days and it's small when they do. This is a good description of Amazon's business by Matthew Iglesias, a notable business analyst:<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>That's because Amazon, as best I can tell, is a charitable organization being run by elements of the investment community for the benefit of consumers. </p>

</blockquote>

<p>My one experience with a B&H return was one defective speaker (of a suite of home theatre speakers). Their response to my email notifying them of the problem was immediate acceptance and an enclosed (pdf) pre-payed shipping label, plus instructions.</p>

<p>I guess it depends: if it's a defective product, it's clear-cut. If you've just had a change of heart, I don't know. But a lens with borderline sharpness, it's a tough call.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong><br />PS If I have correctly identified the transaction in question (Web No: 1026778185), our customer service department has supplied a pre-paid UPS return label to the customer as a one-time courtesy.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And this is why I could <strong>NEVER</strong> be in retail. Not for a second. When did it become okay to ask someone else to pay for your change of whim? </p>

<p>I do hope people realize what kind of service B&H and Adorama provide those of us who choose photography as a avocation or profession. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>"The copy didn't seem particularly sharp." [This was the next line after that quoted by Posner.]</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Sounds like a reasonable basis for a replacement to me. A bad copy is a bad copy. It hardly sounds like "whim."</p>

<p>I used to buy at B&H all the time. Now I do perhaps 30-40% of the time.</p>

<p>All that savings in free shipping from Amazon adds up. (Okay, so there is a small fee for Amazon Prime, but over a year's worth of shopping, it is not very much per month or per item.)</p>

<p>I used to never buy through Adorama. Why do I sometimes now buy through them? Because they advertise through Amazon. B&H does not.</p>

<p>B&H will do well, even though it is coasting on its past record with many photographers. It is still a fine place to shop, and it almost always has what I want. Even so, every time that I want to buy something these days from B&H, I check to see what the price will be from Amazon--and I check shipping costs.</p>

<p>Amazon increasingly has the best price.</p>

<p>I will then go back to B&H and get accessories if I have to--but only if I have to.</p>

<p>In spite of all the above, I have to add that many of the last few big items I have bought have been though KEH.COM. Their used prices are a bit high, but the quality is exceptional.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

<p>There's usually no reason to buy from Adorama via Amazon. Adorama typically don't charge shipping and all returns etc will be directly with Adorama, not Amazon. Amazon just takes their cut of Adorama's profit if you buy that way.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"..You may return most new, unopened items <em><strong>sold and fulfilled by Amazon.com</strong></em> within 30 days of delivery for a full refund..."</p>

</blockquote>

<p> Items sold by most 3rd party vendors are typically <em><strong>not</strong></em> fullfilled by Amazon.com</p>

<p>If a lens doesn't seem particularly sharp and you want to return it, then it's a repair or exchange situation. If you just didn't like it because it wasn't as sharp as you hoped it might be, so you decided not to buy it, then that's a return because you just didn't like it. In that case (since you didn't ask for repair or exchange) you don't get shipping paid.</p>

<p>B&H and similar companies aren't out there to provide you with free copies of a lens to test and pay the shipping both ways if you don't like it for some reason.</p>

<p>At the B and H store, you can see and hold a huge selection to help make a decision on what to buy. You have free seminars and you can test equipment like printers. If you live in the NYC area or are visiting, B and H provides free parking within a block to two of their store in Manhattan if you buy more than $100 worth of stuff. You can't hold the product from Amazon.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"...a few years ago I used the cheap Smartpost option which was terrible."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>My experience with FedEx SmartPost was great until early 2013, including purchases directly from Adorama and via Amazon. But since early 2013 the weak point has been the post office. FedEx is generally are consistent nationwide. But USPS reliability seems very dependent on location. When the local USPS has its act together, SmartPost works great. Otherwise, not. It would take a magazine length article to detail the USPS problems we've had in our neighborhood this year, although it seems to finally have been resolved.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>All that savings in free shipping from Amazon adds up. </p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

B&H has free shipping.<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Amazon increasingly has the best price.</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

It's been going the other way if you track pricing. <br>

<br>

The biggest reason is that Amazon, B&H and Adorama won't break MAP pricing, but B&H (and maybe Adorama) package free accessories with some MAP-priced items. I recently bought a fairly high end camera from B&H which included useful accessories. Amazon offered nothing extra. Not a huge price break, but another 3% in extras.<br>

<br>

And, in a real surprise, I ordered a filter and a card reader from B&H last week because the price was 10% lower than Amazon.</p>

<p>I just bought 5 rolls of Velvia 50 120 format from B and H. I just checked Amazon - same prices except for a couple of dealers who charged less but had a high charge for shipping. Came out the same. I like buying from B and H. They're ethical. You don't have to worry.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"The copy didn't seem particularly sharp." [This was the next line after that quoted by Posner.]</em><br>

Sounds like a reasonable basis for a replacement to me. A bad copy is a bad copy. It hardly sounds like "whim."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>He didn't say it was "a bad copy." He gave an entirely subjective opinion about how the lens <em>seemed</em> to him. He's entitled to that opinion but that doesn't mean he received a defective product.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>B&H will do well, even though it is coasting on its past record with many photographers.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Also an entirely subjective opinion; in fact a broad generalization unsupported by facts. What we know, what we think, and what we believe are three different entities and of the three only one, what we know, has any factual basis. IMO presuming what we think or believe are factual when they're not is a problem we se too often in every conversation from this to global warming to evolution. YMMV.</p>

<p>Henry Posner<br /><strong>B&H Photo-Video</strong></p>