A pro lab that doesn't understand "push processing"?

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>Not too long ago I took a few shots using Tri-X film under poor lighting condition. (I am normally a digital guy, due to the "low cost" and convenience.) Due to the fact that I was taking a portrait (there was some slight subject movement) and the lack of a tripod, I had to purposely underexpose the shot to allow a fast enough shutter speed (1/30s) to "freeze" the motion. (although i did use a VR lens, so camera shake was compensated to a degree) I essentially use the ISO 400 film as if it was rated as something that was rated between ISO 800 and ISO 1600. </p>

<p>I had the film developed at a professional lab (one that actually does B&W, not just the "drug store C-41); and I expected them to push process the underexposed images. but when they turned out, they all remained underexposed. When I asked the guy working there why the images weren't push processed, he simply told me that I should've used a tripod or leaned my back on a wall when taking the shot.</p>

<p>What's up with this? Is this normal?</p>

<p><em>"I <strong>expected </strong> them to push process the underexposed <strong>images</strong> ."</em></p>

<p>Expecting them to do something is not the same as telling them to do something. Did you <em>tell </em> them to push the film? If not, then they would have had no way of knowing that you wanted it pushed. Also, they can't push just certain images -- push processing can only be done to the entire roll.</p>

<p>You expected them to push process it, did you tell them that that is how they should process it or were you just talking to them about what was on the roll. If you told them to push process the film and they didn't then that really sucks, but if you only described your situation to them without asking them to process it in a certain way... well, then next time you should just be more clear. What did you shoot the film at was it ISO 800 or was it ISO 1600, did you make this rating clear and write it down? The situation isn't normal, The lab I send my film to always processes it as I want them to, but If I have roll that needs to be processed abnormally I always make my directions very clear. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Its just like telling a master cook to over do; ie super well done a fine steak. Overdeveloping increases contrast; it also barely if all budges the toe region; thus your underexposed shadows will strill be lost. The lab is basically dammed if the overdevelop; or dammed if they do not. You should be more clear with a lab or a cook; due you want your tri-x thats exposed at 100,000 EI developed for 1 hour in a paint mixer?:) Or do you want raw shrimp; or a steak thats all burned to heck and back.:) Most folks push film at home; or use the same lab to reduce errors. Labs also get folks who complain their pushed films have too much contrast; since most folks do not understand that overdeveloping increases contrast. Find another lab or find out whether your current one even overdevelops film. There is such a WIDE range of developers used with pushing; a lab might just throw yours in the rest of the pile. Here I got into pushing films back in the late 1950's; labs lost astro films; didnt push them; etc.</p>

<p>If you underexpose the image, you underexpose the image. There is nothing to compensate for that.</p>

<p>Push processing changes the effective EI of the film by developing the highlights more. You have to either increase the temperature of the developer to hasten development or you have to increase the time in the developer. It's not going to happen on it's own.</p>

<p>If you specifically asked for push processing and did not get it - Their Fault.<br>

If you did no ask for push processing - Your Fault.<br>

When sending film which requires processing to pro labs that differs from the standard process you must be very specific as to the exact push or pull by 1/3 of a stop.</p>

<p>best top do it yourself<br>

ask here for suggestions times / developers and times and just do it.<br>

if you don't want to get an enlarger and get wet in the dark<br>

get your developed film scanned.</p>

<p>I asked them to push process it. But they just kind of avoided talking about it like if they don't know what it is; and they didn't really answer my questions on it. I thought they would've got it done since I mentioned it, but looks like that wasn't the case.</p>

<p>A commercial lab isn't necessarily a "pro" lab or, perhaps more appropriately, a custom lab. It's just a lab that does processing and printing for money. Fort Worth has long had one of those. Sometimes it qualifies as a "pro" lab when it happens to have employed someone with the competence to understand the needs of individual photographers with specific requests. Most of the time it's just a commercial lab staffed with indifferent order takers and button pushers.</p>

<p>You can tell immediately which type of lab you're in. The attitude of the lab you described doesn't sound like a custom lab. If they were competent to offer such services they would have left no doubts. Someone would have discussed with you the complexities and possible solutions. They also would have explained why it usually costs more for this type of processing, and it would have seemed reasonable.</p>

<p>Fortunately you should be able to rescue those photos with careful scanning. That's one area in which a good film scanner can excel - in wringing detail from thin, underexposed negatives that would otherwise be a nightmare to print conventionally.</p>

<p>Thanks Lex! Thanks to everyone else too.</p>

<p>The very few times I've had film pushed, I was asked how many stops of push I wanted and, then, to confirm, at what speed I had rated the roll. There was an extra charge for pushing, but only for the first roll of several. In other words, if a lab normally dunked five rolls at a time, the extra charge for pushing was the same for one to five rolls, because they would go in together. If you don't get those kinds of indications that a lab is going to do what you want, don't give them your film to process. BTW, a proper lab should be able to pull film too, either to do a partial fix on a mistake or, in black and white, to purposely alter the characteristics of the neg.</p>

<p>As easy as B&W film is to develope, I would at least do the film processing myself.</p>

<p>Jack, that's probably a good idea. But of course, it'll cost more than simply shooting and processing RAW files...</p>

<p>No, its not normal, and any lab that doesn't understand push and pull is not a pro lab. Any pro lab that allows someone with no understanding of basic processes to front their business to customers is not a good pro lab. As others intimate though there should have been some warning signs. When you asked for a push someone should have immediately asked you either "how many stops" or "what ISO." Without asking you that they cannot push. </p>

<p>As indicated, you'll almost certainly get better results from scans and digitally printing with these negs than you would from a traditional analogue b&w print process. </p>

<p>A good way to tell is on the order form. A lab that knows what they are doing will have a section Push/Pull and by how many stops on it.</p>

<p>Cost is not important if you have that happen again. case closed.</p>

<p>Pro labs have to be carefull not to misslead newcomers/newbies that pushing always works. Once you have a pushy :) customer who then complains about lost shadows and the contrast is too high one has still not a satisfied one either.<br>

Its like if one dictates to a fine chef to serve eggs undercooked and the steak overcooked. You barf and then blame the cook; not yourself.:)<br>

Pushing/overdeveloping does not boost the iso of film. One really is exposing say tri-x at an EI of 1600; an exposure index. The film is never really an iso of 1600; the contrast is too high for the formal spec. Most all of us on Photo.net have experimented with pushing films</p>

<p>One should not assume that the lab overdevelops/pushes based on casual guessing or assuming. Pushing and pulling development is as old as photography; pre civil war.<br>

Screwups in labs occur and poor labs exist too. As Les metnioned; normally there is a charge for under and over developing.Your chat with the lab might have been with a light weight 2nd stringer and not a min person; or maybe they are all abit of a duffus.</p>

<p>Having a PRO lab; even a well known one not following push/pull instructions is not really new; its probably going to get worse too. Find the guru if any in your target lab and see if they really have a push or pull service in B&W.</p>

<p>A thin negative scanned with a full 16 bits can many times bring out lost details.</p>

<p>Looks like the lab's lack of understanding about the term "push processing" is an "obvious sign" in the first place.</p>

<p>A Pro Lab. I used one 1 time back in 74 I have used myself since. I am not slamming the ones that are good i just think I can do better myself for my own B&W.</p>

<p>Agree with larry, if a person shoots B&W film, then it really isn't that much more expensive to develope the film, too.</p>

<p>I recommend you process your own with b/w. Its easy and cheap to do plus you are responsible for the outcomes. This is perhaps a good time to quote the old saying that perhas you should 'stick to the knitting.'<br>

Meaning that if you are primarily a digital user then stick to it 100% and if you're a film user stick to that because mixing both invariably leads to mistakes which tends to be more of a problem with film than digital since mistakes with film are permanent.</p>

<p>James<br>

You might be onto something there I for one though use a slightly different attitude. Digital is Digital and film is film I even mix the 2 but I learned photography by flilm and a dark room so if I ever move to Digital I take that with me .. some of these Digital people may need to remember where their art came from.</p>

<p>Larry</p>

<p>If I need B&W film pushed, I do it myself.</p>