Sunny-16?

It’s so often out there on the Internet as advice; ‘just use Sunny16’ used in a very loose sense, often with little or no explanation about what it is or how it should be used

 

Yes it puzzled me for a while till I did some research. In practical terms, I found there is very few scenes that f16 will be the aperture setting at 125/100sec at 100ASA. Open fields with little greenery on a sunny day, and clouds with bright light reflecting off them can bring up f16. Of course beach sand and snow covered fields could also warrant f16, but I'm not near those to test.

 

As far as bright blue sky goes, I don't think you'll get f16 from that, usually f11 if it truely is a bright sky and minus clouds. It seems to depend on the direction of the sun-light, the time of day and possibly the amount of light reflected from Mother Earth. There's a few factors to consider. Sometimes the exposure value of the blue sky is not much different to the subject you're photographing. If you go through your archived shots and find one that has a well exposed sky (blue, not white) included with your well exposed subject, which is what you would have assessed, that's the reason why, the sky was near to the same exposure value as the subject (devoid of any shadows on the subject that is)

 

For subjects on sunny days, but not including sky, or very little, a good all round setting is f8 at 125/100sec at 100ASA. The f8 gives you a reasonable aperture opening and depth of field for the slightly darker ground dwelling subjects, children playing in the yard, gardens, car in the driveway, the wife sitting on the rubber tire swing, etc. If you are exposing a 200ASA film, you go to the next fastest speed (250sec), for 400ASA, go to 500sec .... or .... you can set the aperture to f11 for 200ASA and f16 for 400ASA (remembering to keep the speed at 125/100sec for those aperture settings)

Let's not forget those old mechanical cameras had notoriously inaccurate shutter speeds.

from Wikipedia

An elaborated form of the sunny 16 rule is to set shutter speed nearest to the reciprocal of the ISO filmspeed / setting and f-number according to this table:

But with latitude so great in most modern films, you can almost "point & shoot" at the simpler version.

Sunny 16 only works in the Tropics - i.e. within +/- 24 degrees latitude of the equator, where seasonal variations of sun altitude don't vary by much. Outside of that it's pot luck. At 52 degrees North, sunlight intensity at noon varies by over a stop (between >120KLux to 60KLux) during the year, even on a totally clear day and with no air pollution. I know, because I kept a 'sun diary' for over a year.

 

So up here on the globe, it's more like Sunny 11 or even Sunny 8 for a good part of the year. But if you tell that to people living in sunnier climes they just don't believe you. Because if some daft paper guide issued by Kodak says 'Sunny 16', then of course that's the word of God, and not to be disputed!

 

There's a good reason why camera TTL metering caught on.

I have mentioned that, several times, in the comments section of Youtube videos.

Videos where a photographer is trying to be helpful and giving Sunny-16 as a tool for His-Her viewers to use.

When i mention that the originator of S-16 based it on a very specific location on the planet and at rather specific times...................Jesus, the back-lash.

You would think i had said the world was flat or something. :)

 

People do not want to hear it for some reason.

Not saying S-16 is Bogus-Fake-Stupid...................simply saying..... depending on your locale, time of day, and WHAT you are shooting; that S-16 MIGHT let you down.

The little guide in the Kodak box for Sunny 16 and the other settings is for 10am to 2 pm. Of course, if you shoot in the middle of the day, then it will work. If you shoot very early or late during magic hours, or during other good photo lighting conditions like before or after a storm, the light is changing so fast and there really is no way to use a Sunny rule without blowing a bunch of shots. So use a meter.

I have mentioned that, several times, in the comments section of Youtube videos.

Videos where a photographer is trying to be helpful and giving Sunny-16 as a tool for His-Her viewers to use.

When i mention that the originator of S-16 based it on a very specific location on the planet and at rather specific times...................Jesus, the back-lash.

You would think i had said the world was flat or something. :)

 

People do not want to hear it for some reason.

Not saying S-16 is Bogus-Fake-Stupid...................simply saying..... depending on your locale, time of day, and WHAT you are shooting; that S-16 MIGHT let you down.

I think the problem is the S 16 is really a general guideline and it's meant to slide up and down based on locale and conditions. In most instances it will not replace knowing how to expose with a good meter. But it will generally give you a basic guide when you don't have one. A lot of great photography all over the planet was done without the use of meters and just the photographers guesstimating the light. The S 16 rule is just a way of doing that. Its not a photographic bible nor was it presented that way. If you're worried that it will be S 11 where you are etc. Just take your digital camera, shoot it in manual one day and estimate your exposures using S 16 for your standard. If you take several pictures that look to be about a stop to dark, than estimate at Sunny 11. Its not really that difficult.

from Wikipedia

 

But with latitude so great in most modern films, you can almost "point & shoot" at the simpler version.

 

Reminds me of a few old cameras in my collection that have red dots on the aperture dial and focus dial, presumably for optimum exposure and focus for sunny days at a suitable shutter speed and distance. I think one camera even has a red dot on the speed dial. I'd say the those red dot configurations would indeed rely heavily on the latitude of negative film, and some post processing would be needed to make the images right. My photography has suffered a set back lately due to a minor illness, totally unrelated to Covid, but I have plans to try out those red dots in the near future and I'll be anxious to post about the results.

Regardless of whether it gets you a near-enough exposure, the Sunny-16 guide does nothing to teach anyone about more important qualities of light, other than intensity.

 

'Overcast' light, for example, is not only less intense, but softer, with more diffuse shadows. While full, open sunlight with harsh, hard-edged shadows is possibly the worst and least interesting type of lighting for many subjects.

Regardless of whether it gets you a near-enough exposure, the Sunny-16 guide does nothing to teach anyone about more important qualities of light, other than intensity.

 

'Overcast' light, for example, is not only less intense, but softer, with more diffuse shadows. While full, open sunlight with harsh, hard-edged shadows is possibly the worst and least interesting type of lighting for many subjects.

Using a meter instead of guestimate 'rules' doesn't teach you any of that either. So that's not about using sunny 16 or not.

. . . and this conversation is not specifically about whether to use the Sunny 16 rule, or not, either.

 

WW

Regardless of whether it gets you a near-enough exposure, the Sunny-16 guide does nothing to teach anyone about more important qualities of light, other than intensity.

 

'Overcast' light, for example, is not only less intense, but softer, with more diffuse shadows. While full, open sunlight with harsh, hard-edged shadows is possibly the worst and least interesting type of lighting for many subjects.

 

I don't know about that. Maybe because we got as part of instruction about light and exposure, we certainly talked about different qualities of light. Understanding a little about side lighting, the different kinds of shading etc. certainly involved discussion of the quality of light. At least it impressed me that way.

Maybe because we got as part of instruction about light and exposure, we certainly talked about different qualities of light.

That would be expected on a photo course, but is definitely not included on the table of exposures in any Sunny-16 guide.

 

Why, in this day and age, when a perfectly good meter is included in most cameras, or can be got for the price of 5 or 6 coffees (or about 3 rolls of film), would anyone want to guesstimate an exposure from a set of rough and ready guidelines?

why would anyone want to guesstimate an exposure from a set of rough and ready guidelines?

Just for the fun of it!

Just for the fun of it!

You have a strange idea of 'fun'. ;)

Try a roll of Velvia or any transparency film and shoot without a meter, and let's see how much fun it is when you get your slides back from the lab (assuming there are still labs who do this). Back when Lyndon Johnson was President, my dad gave me his Univex Mercury half frame camera to use, meterless and scale focusing. I used the Kodak exposure guidance on the boxes of Tri-X. Outdoor was OK while indoors resulted in a whole lot of thin negatives. The Minolta SRT 101 that replaced the Mercury was significantly better. The Canon F-1 (original) that replaced the Minolta was even better and I could reliably expose heavily backlit subjects.

 

Still have that Univex Mercury (and flash unit!) and it still works, I think.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Ken Katz

That would be expected on a photo course, but is definitely not included on the table of exposures in any Sunny-16 guide.

 

Why, in this day and age, when a perfectly good meter is included in most cameras, or can be got for the price of 5 or 6 coffees (or about 3 rolls of film), would anyone want to guesstimate an exposure from a set of rough and ready guidelines?

 

I think we're focussing on two different perspectives. The method isn't meant to replace a meter at all. It was developed before meteres were widely used by hobbiests and weren't always included in consumer cameras. What it is useful and I believe still relevant about Sunny 16 is for teaching photographers to learn about light and exposure if they don't already. But you can still take awesome pictures and most certainly more accurately exposed pictures with modern cameras by just put them on Program and shoot away. Doesn't mean its not both a useful tool to use sometimes and is very useful to getting a sense of different kinds of light and how it effects exposure. I think its probably a good idea for someone who is beginning and hasn't had a lot experience to learn it, and use it intensively for a week or two. You can learn a lot, even if you think you already know it.

When I was shooting b&w film in meterless cameras, I generally achieved good results using the Sunny-16 rule, albeit with slight modifications. At USA latitudes, I found that an extra half-stop was needed for mid-day exposures, and an extra full stop for early morning or late afternoon.

 

On "cloudy bright" days when shadows were still visible, open up another full stop. If shadows aren't visible, open two stops.

 

Under heavy overcast, open three or four stops. The same when shooting in a shaded area on a sunny day.

 

These rules-of-thumb work pretty well -- but only if beforehand the photographer has tested their film and developing combination to determine the true film speed, which is usually slower than the box speed.

The method isn't meant to replace a meter at all. It was developed before meteres were widely used by hobbiests

A) It's not a 'method', and

B) Fairly widespread amateur use of lightmeters began in the late 1950s, whereas the Sunny-16 'rule' has only gained widespread fame (or infamy) since the Internet.

Its inclusion as a bit of (usually discarded) paper with rolls of film continued long after TTL metering was common in nearly every camera except those that offered little control over aperture or shutter speed anyway.

 

Being able to stick a wet finger in the air and guesstimate an exposure isn't a desired skill. It's a delusion. The human eye is very poor at judging absolute brightness values, let alone translating a light level to a suitable exposure.

 

Judging the quality of light, rather than its quantity, is an entirely different matter.

Sunny 16 exists exactly because the eye is a poor judge of light levels. It describes easier to identify situations and suggests associated light levels.

All very imprecise still. But better than judgement by eye.

Better until the eye is dedicately trained and experienced. It becomes a skill.

Better until the eye is dedicately trained and experienced. It becomes a skill.

You can't train the eye, because it has a built-in 'exposure compensation' that does not come with a viewfinder display.

You can train your brain to 'get an eye' for typical situations. It will still be way off in most. It will never become a skill.

That's why meters and how to use those properly takes such prominent place in photography.

typical situations like the use of sunny 16? Sure and much more.

 

Never? I feel fortunate to have a very different experience unimpeded by that way of thinking. With practice, lots of trial and error and focused intent it does become a skill for some. It taught me all the characteristics of light not limited to quantity. The brain can inform a lot when trained. It can overcome countless perceived limitations. Intuition follows nicely.

Edited October 2, 2021 by inoneeye

"With practice, lots of trial and error and focused intent it does become a skill for some" Ion

 

Why? the focal lengths are clearly marked on most lenses for zone focusing.

 

Hello.

^ Dedicate[d]ly :rolleyes:

" Fairly widespread amateur use of lightmeters began in the late 1950s, whereas the Sunny-16 'rule' has only gained widespread fame (or infamy) since the Internet."

 

Unless you started taking photographs before that. As to the rest of it? Total tripe, but keep it up. The finger in the air bit is a total false equivalency, but hey it's an argument. Some people probably think its best to paint with numbers.