Digital Camera Metering For Film Pix?

Hello folks.

 

New forum member here, and new film user as well.

 

Actually, to provide more background info on me, I have been using (mostly Panasonic Lumix) digital pocket cameras for some time, and more reentry moved up to an Olympus OMD EM1 (1st gen) some time back- but honestly am just learning the basics of photography! (always shot in "auto" mode) Recently I got an old Canon AE1 Program and probably shot 6 or 8 rolls of film again, just in "auto", but more recently I bought a Hasselblad 500cm AND a 500c, with 80mm & 50mm lees, respectively. Some friends have offered to show mr the ropes, and I have one roll of Tmax 400 shot and ready to send off for developing.

BUT the point of this post is as follows:

 

My friend had a light meter the other day when we were shooting and I had brought along my Oly digicam. W were shooting indoors and out, and I ended up using the Oly in auto to get meter readings and set my 500Cm accordingly. Of course the Hasselblad is limited in F stop and shutter speed, compared to the modern Oly, So I would slow down the shutter speed to the nearest value and open the aperture up to the nearest value.

 

How accurate do you think I was or might have been in doing this?

 

Can anyone recommend a light meter for a noob?

 

Also, I've heard that many digital cameras have adjustable metering capability, but couldn't seem to find this feature in my Old's menus...

 

PS as you all no doubt know, one must submit some images fro approval to post in the forum, so I have done so. Feel free to take a look if you please. I'm not afraid of critique, and I FEEL like I manage some OK compositions, if not sometimes unorthodox... maybe they are babying me but I seem to get complimentary commentary from photographer and non-photographer friends and relatives.....

 

ALSO, my apologies if this has been beat to death, I was trying to find a search option within the forums here, but couldn't seem to get there.

 

Thanks!

...Can anyone recommend a light meter for a noob?....

 

I use a Pentax Spotmeter V, which meters a 1 degree spot for extremely accurate metering, provided it's metering correctly to start with. I just bought a second one for color film (my other one is for B&W film), and they differ by 2/3 stop. I'll need to figure out which one (if either) is accurate and get the other adjusted.

 

They each cost me about $100 or so, give or take, depending on condition. Hope this helps.

"I use a Pentax Spotmeter V, which meters a 1 degree spot for extremely accurate metering, provided it's metering correctly to start with."

 

- Sorry, but I think a spotmeter would be the worst possible introduction to handheld metering for a beginner. The exposure indicated would vary wildly, depending on where it was pointed. And if the OP is also going to carry a grey card around, then a spotmeter becomes pointless and cumbersome.

 

The OP needs to learn an easy and reliable metering method first.

That method is incident light metering, and almost any meter with an incident dome or cone would suffice.

 

You don't see many movie directors or lighting camerapersons with a spotmeter hung around their neck. You do see them taking incident readings. Why? Because they don't want to waste time and money on badly exposed takes.

Edited September 6, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

"I use a Pentax Spotmeter V, which meters a 1 degree spot for extremely accurate metering, provided it's metering correctly to start with."

 

- Sorry, but I think a spotmeter would be the worst possible introduction to handheld metering for a beginner. The exposure indicated would vary wildly, depending on where it was pointed. And if the OP is also going to carry a grey card around, then a spotmeter becomes pointless and cumbersome.

 

The OP needs to learn an easy and reliable metering method first.

That method is incident light metering, and almost any meter with an incident dome or cone would suffice.

 

You don't see many movie directors or lighting camerapersons with a spotmeter hung around their neck. You do see them taking incident readings. Why? Because they don't want to waste time and money on badly exposed takes.

 

I should have mentioned I use the spotmeter for zone system exposures. I find a subject I want to be zone V on the exposure and meter it, then set the exposure on the camera/lens.

 

Mea culpa. I wasn't thinking.

I’m not familiar with your Oly, but you might be able to change the metering settings to whole stops, like your Hasselblad. Generally film has plenty of latitude, so your ‘erring on the fat side’ metering would probably not be an issue other than for very critical work. Any light meter, in camera or hand held is only as good as the thing you point it at, so I would not worry so much about what meter you use (your digital camera will have an excellent meter, so I’d stick with this if you can bear carrying it around as well), and think about what your meter is designed to do, which is provide a mid grey exposure regardless of the amount of light it reads. Meter from an average grey subject and you shouldn’t be far out, even when you round up as you have been doing. Oh, and have fun!

I am with Joe. . . Get a hand held meter with both Incident & Reflective capabilities. My personal favorite is a Gossen Pilot lightmeter, the Pilot with the Selenium cell. . never needs batteries. $10-30 on Ebay. Shown below is one used with a 6x9 folder. Once you get the Incident bit down pat, you can start using the reflective readings. If you really get SERIOUS and start playing with the Zone System, or some variant of it, the Pilot can give you very accurate readings for using the ZS. When all this is mastered, then think of some form of spot metering. Aloha from the Mainland, Bill

Using a digital camera as a 'substitute' lightmeter is simple, and far easier then using a 'regular' lightmeter

 

The latter, because, unlike using a 'normal' lightmeter where you take a reading of the light and that hopefully will be correct

(but could well be completely wrong if you didn't take take into account/balance the readings for the high light and shadow parties in the scene)

with a digital camera you can take a try out picture to see if the reading was correct, and based on what you see on the LCD if necessary make a correction/

adjust your settings.

 

In the film days that was common practice too, although back then we used Polaroids for that purpose

At the cost a lot of extra money just for the Polaroids alone, plus for the madatory additional Polaroid backs for large and medium format camera's,

and if you had the money eg NPC backs for 35mm bodies (which basically meant you had to have an extra 35mm body just for use with the NPC back)

 

Just dial in the ISO of the film you are using on Hasselblad on the digital

Set your lightmetering in the digital camera on Manual as described in page 41 of manual of the OMD E1 (found an official free download one here

Downloads - Olympus)

 

Assuming you want as much DoF as possible and therefor put priority on the aperture number (and based on the film and available light will have to adjust

your shutter speed) dial in the same aperture you have set on the Hassy on the Oly

Then change the shutter speed on the Oly faster or slower until you get a 'correctly' exposed image on the LCD of your Oly

Copy that shutter speed on the Hassy

And you're done

 

If you instead want to use the shutter speed as leading instead, eg when taking a shot of a fast moving subject where you want to 'freeze' the action

procedure would be slightly different

Copy shutter speed selected on the Hassy on the Oly, and play around with the aperture of the digital camera untill you get a 'correct' image,

and copy that aperture number on the Hassy

Just for fun, you might try to find the light meter that was made to replace the winding knob on the 500c/cm. I had one long ago, but as I used the camera almost always for weddings and with a flash, I can't really vouch for how good it was, though it never gave me a bogus reading. I do know that the price was - as with all Blad equipment - ridiculous. Hopefully they're reasonable now.

 

I just looked it up on fleece-bay Priced anywhere from $50 to $150. Still an OUCH!

Thanks for your replies, everyone. I'll look more into my metering on the OLY, I don't mind carrying a bunch of stuff around, I've kind of been doing this all along anyway!

I'll have to go back and pull out my OMD manual and (gasp) read it, it seems...funy, but my friend suggested I always carry the Hasselblad manual as well,soI might as well just hav both in my "bag" for file reference purposes.

 

For this first roll of film, I was shooting "places" (I guess you might say) rather than "things", so was going for a wide open full focus look, rather than a shallow or specific depth of field. My buddy did have his light meter along, sorry if I already mentioned this, and it seems to be a little amorphous for what we were setting up on. I was using my tripod as well, figuring that'd be easier until I get adept at focusing the Hasselblad on the fly. I would hold the digicam right up alongside the Hassy on the tripod, thinking that'd be the best way for the Oly to "see" what I was more or less aiming at.

 

Incidentally, somebody recommended a book, Fred Picker's Zone VI workshop, so I'm trying to learn about light and exposure; apparently this is a bit of an easier read than Ansel Adams' Zone System. But I'm beginning to understand hat yes, that optimum gray is what folks shoot for, I guess because that's the ideal medium grounding a B&W image?

 

BTW, the 500C which I have yet to receive in the mail, appears to have one of the Hasselblad metering knobs on it! Additionally, it comes with some filters and a few other goodies. I look forward t figuring out the differences between the 50mm & 80mm lenses and exploring their capabilities, in addition to the differences between the C & CM bodies. My 80mm lens is a CF *T* lens, so I guess it is not going to let me do a timed release shot?

 

But maybe that's a topic for another discussion altogether!

 

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate your input.

Tom

Self timer is on the body by the release.

 

You might want to go here to look at the differences: HASSELBLAD Camera Manuals

 

No major difference IMHO

Put the Oly on S mode. Set the shutter speed on the Oly to the same shutter speed available on the Hassy. Read the aperture indicated by the Oly and set the same. I believe the aperture on the Hassy can be set between stops.

Upon metering I dare to say: Its a big mess. at least for a first couple of rolls and until you figured out how your film, processed your way, relates to which of your various meters.

In an attempt to dive deep into things it can't be wrong to read Ansel Adams' The Negative. - I tried so understood his zone system in principle which translates to "yes yes nod nod" but unfortunately not to being suddenly able to roll up my sleeves, grab my Soligor spot meter, "scan" a scene with it and come to the conclusion if it will need an (un?) coated lens and or what kind of development ever. - It is much easier to evaluate a histogram!

 

A while ago I was ready to rely on various (battery powered) Gossen meters. My film didn't turn out bad enough, to complain about them. - Recently I ended trying my flash meters in a studio setting. - Results varied. And for some odd reason a Leica M8 at default ISO 160 with 50/2 appears to need half a stop less light than a Samsung GX 20 with 50/2.8 macro at default ISO 200. And while I got usable exposures on film, according to my handheld metering, I ended with blown highlights on my Monochrom.

 

So my bottom line is: Whatever you'll do will take practise. - Negative film and a sensor deal differently with overexposure: The film will just turn dense; hard to flatbed scan but still optically printable. The file will have unrecoverable white spots.

3 different lenses might have 3 different t-stops when set to the same f-stop and nobody knows how digital camera makers defined their camera's ISO rating. - If it does almost noise free captures at ISO 1600, customers will be impressed. By far most of them will rely on the internal meter and the setting according to their menu. If that "ISO 1600" is in fact only ISO 800, the camera will be easier to make...

 

I am no fan of camera mounted external meters or uncoupled built in ones. - Their only advantage is you grab that camera strap dash out and are ready to go. Their disadvantage is: That camera strap wil, cut into your shoulder while you 'll learn "At work it is too dark to shoot ISO 400 hand held" You'll also shout "rob me I have Hasselblad!" while you are learning about your train station's interior. And your relatives' makeup might brittle and patience wear out, due to their urge to smile into your camera pointed at them although you are only metering.

I rather know my light before I open my camera bag.

 

Meter recommendations: Download a free app for your smart device. Check it against your Canon and that Hasselblad meter, by reading white walls indoors and outdorrs for example and figure out how you could use it.

 

If you are pondering a meter purchase: Stay away from anything mercury cell (substitute) demanding. Don't bet on rather old selenium cells; they don't last forever.

if you feel rich, ponder something capable of flash metering too. That way you'll need only one meter. (I believe everybody will end in a (portable) studio situation some day.) - YMMV.

 

Sorry if I added confusion. - Sunny 16 works for some folks. Experience helps. - Shooting concerts on Fujicolor 1600 and Pentax *ist D according to my Lunapro's spot add on- or incident readings worked for me. My (back then new) Bisix 2 seemed to read right, when I set the ISO 1 stop lower on it.

 

Less than an afternoon of "homework" and you should be ready to go.

If you really want to use the Zone system: Play safe in the beginning and dabble with it as a backup to predict results, but better establish your own darkroom first and get a 3rd mag to develop another roll differently.

How accurate do you think I was or might have been in doing this?

 

Quite accurate, and certainly accurate enough for B&W film, which can cope with some deviation from ideal exposure (slide film is a lot less forgiving).

 

If you prefer carrying a lightmeter, though, I can recommend the base model Sekonic that is available today, the L308S. Works well, has incident and reflective metering, not as cheap as older lightmeters can be found, but personally, since I knew I would be using it pretty often, I felt it was worth the extra money. Another (cheap) option for a lightmeter: there are apps for smartphones to use its camera as a lightmeter. They usually work quite well, only more 'complex' situations (low light, or very high contrast) they will trip up.

 

As an introduction on paper, personally I would start with "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson. It's a very accessible, clear explanation into the core basics.

For many years I used a variety of meters for Medium Format use ranging from expensive Pentax to cheap and chearful. The best way to learn is by your mistakes amd start by using a simple hand held meter (there are loads avaialable) which you can use in direct and incident mode. Get one that does not use a battery but a selenium cell.

If you are using slide film a good idea is to bracket exposures 1/3 stop on either side of the indicated raeding. On a blad you can do that by simply setting the f stop about 1/3 of 1/2 way between f stops. I did that for years and it worked a treat on blads and mamiya cameras. You can also use your digital camera while learning as a polaroid which might save some frames.

As said abouve, I would not start out with a Pentax Spot meter. They are fine instruments and I used one for many years but if you want to learn metering save yourself some money and buy a Sekonic or Gossen similar which you will see loads of on ebay. Dont try a Weston Master as they are now very old and you might well get a duff one. I would reccomnd a Sekonic and found them very good. Let us know how you get on and we can ngive you more feedback.

. But I'm beginning to understand hat yes, that optimum gray is what folks shoot for, I guess because that's the ideal medium grounding a B&W image?

 

 

 

That's it. Try not to confuse your light meter. Decide what the important tones are in your shot, and meter for those. Mostly this is around an average grey (since if you 'mush-up' all the tones in the image, you'll probably get to an average grey. OK, sometimes, you need to bias your metering for other tones, for example, when shooting a snow scene. Your light meter however, still thinks it is looking at an average grey, when you point it at snow, or at a black door for example. So if you meter from snow, and shoot the shot, your meter thinks ’that’s an average grey’ and you’ll get an average grey snow in your picture. Ditto with anything black – you’ll get an average grey. So if you are faced with a shot, for example of a snowy landscape, or a black front door, you are best pointing your light meter at something in the scene that is close to an average grey. This will mean that the average grey tone will be just that in your final image (average grey) and ensure your snow is white, and door is black.

 

 

To my mind, photography (film at least) is a lot less exact than some people make out. Sure, aim for being as precise as you can, but there are so many variables you really need to stick to one film, one developer, one process to get the most out of it, and fine tune it. Trust me, I have some TRULY HORRENDOUS negatives, that I can still get a decent print out of!

The Zone system is useful mostly for large format. For people who have a hard time understanding it, the first paragraph here:

 

What is the Zone System?

 

should make it easy to understand.

I agree that a spotmeter, used properly, is too much and even unnecessary for a beginner.

 

Film latitude is so great these days on almost all surviving films that the Sunny-16 rule (carefully applied, LINK) will be sufficient.

 

 

Otherwise, get one of the cheaper reflective meters. (examples of various kinds of meters on eBay at Gossen Incident & Reflected Photography Light Meters for sale | eBay.

Thanks again foe the commentary, everyone. I've found a used Sekonic L308S-U meter on my local Craigslist so I'll pick that up if its still available, BUT will probably continue to use my Digital camera (in shutter mode with ISO adapted to whatever film I'm using- currently 400 TriX or Tmax) and thus perhaps learn to shoot ym digital M4/3 in mania mode as well.

 

Will order a copy of Understanding Exposure, by Mr Peterson.'A friend says he is going to put together 2 scales which I can slide up & back, with exposure vales, aperture settings and speeds. He says I can slide them to see how the values both vary and candling in different ways.

EDIT: the Sekonic L308S-U is still there, the person wants 75.00 and it's barely used, so I'll snap that up while the deal is available (199.00 new? used? @ B&H) and figure it out in time, but meanwhile will continue to use my Olympus, playing with the light meter as well...

Thanks again foe the commentary, everyone. I've found a used Sekonic L308S-U meter on my local Craigslist so I'll pick that up if its still available, BUT will probably continue to use my Digital camera (in shutter mode with ISO adapted to whatever film I'm using- currently 400 TriX or Tmax) and thus perhaps learn to shoot ym digital M4/3 in mania mode as well.

 

Will order a copy of Understanding Exposure, by Mr Peterson.'A friend says he is going to put together 2 scales which I can slide up & back, with exposure vales, aperture settings and speeds. He says I can slide them to see how the values both vary and candling in different ways.

EDIT: the Sekonic L308S-U is still there, the person wants 75.00 and it's barely used, so I'll snap that up while the deal is available (199.00 new? used? @ B&H) and figure it out in time, but meanwhile will continue to use my Olympus, playing with the light meter as well...

 

I wouldn't recommend the book. Sorry!

I wouldn't recommend the book. Sorry!

Can you tell what you don't like about it please?

I've actually been looking thru it tho have yet to delve in and actually read it.

Not saying to buy the book or not but here's a review

 

Understanding Exposure by Brian Peterson - a Reader Review

The Peterson book is well illustrated and gives very understandable analogies, explanations and, more importantly, examples of how varying shutter and aperture affect the picture.

 

Not sure about the bee analogy though, and definitely don't recommend staring at his shirts for too long.

Can you tell what you don't like about it please?

I've actually been looking thru it tho have yet to delve in and actually read it.

The book doesn't cover much of how to determine exposure. I think the total coverage of this is only about a couple of pages. It basically tells you to trust your meter as is. A couple of places where he said you should give a bit more exposure but real doesn't tell you much about metering technique. So it's a book about exposure without dealing a lot about exposure.

What the book does talk about (about 3/4 of the book) is how to choose your shutter speed, aperture and ISO after you have determine the exposure needed for the subject. This is the much easier part and thus many people read the book and love it because they can understand it easy but that's because it's the easy part.

If you compare the book with Ansel Adams "The Negative", Adams would spend a lot of time talking about the Zone system, how to determine the exposure but he spent may be a paragraph talking about depth of field, motion blur etc... That's because those are the simple things.

Ah! Well I'll read thei it and glean what is cam out of it. Also reading Fred Pickers Zone VI, which I was told is a bit of an easier read than Mr Adams' book on his Zone System

 

Thanks for your input!

Just make sure the digital is set to the same ISO as the other camera. And don't put it in auto ISO mode or the ISO will shift maybe without you noticing. Otherwise works great. If you have a smartphone, there are light meter apps as well. Not sure how accurate they are though.