German 35mm Cron in Midland Box?

<p>Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and recently returned to using Leica M cameras after some years of neglect.<br>

A couple of days ago I bought a MkIV 35mm f2 summicron from a well known UK dealer. I won't name them here yet because my gripe may not be justified and that's why I'm asking the question first because I can see there's a wealth of knowledge on this forum.<br>

Needless to say I did a bit of a search online to see what others were saying about this dealer and it all seemed OK. The lens was described as "M-" 'Boxed' and Made in Germany. So the lens just arrived in the post and I was a bit suprised to find a box that seemed to me to be too early a design for these later german made lenses and then I noticed that clearly written on the side of the box was Leitz Midland. At first I thought that there's simply been a mistake as the seller had a few models of this lens for sale, but opening the box I found (packed in non original broken polystyrene bits) the lens was indeed the German model.<br>

Now, I bought this lens to use, and I just ran a test on my M8.2 and it looks cracking, and it's my intention to keep the lens for the long term, HOWEVER I keep the packaging for pretty much everything I buy just in case one day I decide to sell or upgrade or whatever.<br>

So the question is does anyone know whether some of these German lenses shipped in the red and white Leitz Midland boxes (model description says 35 f2 summicron on side).<br>

Because if not, I think it's pretty cheeky (to put it mildly) that I buy an 'M- boxed' lens from a reputable leica specialist and get it sent in some random box from another version and origin of the lens.<br>

Before I wade in there I just want to get my facts straight.<br>

Thanks in advance for any help.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Would you have rather received the lens in bubble-wrap, made in China?</p>

<p>Earnestly, if the lens is what you wanted (German made), what does the wrap/box mean to you? Maybe you could ask the seller where/how they had a spare, unrelated but matching box ...</p>

<p>Be kind, please.</p>

<p>For whatever reason, the correct boxes for Leica equipment are important to Leica people and add to the value of the purchase. The box alone has value and you have the expectation of receiving the correct one when the item is advertised and sold as "boxed". </p>

<p>I am always surprised when I see empty card boxes that once contained high end photo equipment being sold on that auction site for fairly good money. I confess I'm a collector of photo stuff but am also a rabid user of this same equipment. I do not keep or collect the boxes but rather recycle them and get on with the business of making images!</p>

If it's important to you, contact the store. I'm sure they'll have an explanation.

 

All my boxes are certified original ones, and I have them inventoried for insurance purposes.

 

Sure! Of course!

 

Now... where's the waffle bunny?

<p>Thanks guys, for your answers. Frank, Sanford is right is the principle of the thing. If it was simply shipped in a box I couldn't care less if was a cheerios one, if packed safely, but the price was reflected by the description of the item as 'Boxed' which I think most people would take to mean the box the item originally had. I paid a price that reflected that - I have no intention of reselling the lens and the box may sit in my cupboard for the next 40 years but one day someone will be so pleased that the last owner (me) kept the original box.<br>

I also use all my equipment but don;t abuse it. If something gets a ding well so be it, but I don't need to accelerate the process by not taking good care of things. This lens will not be sitting on any shelf, believe me.<br>

Anyway, the upshot is that I contacted the seller, we agreed that human error was probably the cause, but whatever the info I'd picked up about the dealer seems to be correct as there was no argument about exchange for another one which should arrive tomorrow. Dealers and sellers reputations should be based on how they deal with issues as well, and so far I'm happy that this will be resolved.<br>

Thanks again for all your comments.</p>

 

<p>Is there a serial # on the box? Does it match the lens? I once had a 35/2 Summicron ver. 1 that came in a 50/2 Summicron box without modification. The serial #'s matched, surprisingly. Indeed a curiosity. Assembly of the 35 Summicron was transferred to Germany from Canada in the late '80's. The boxes changed at that time from the red and white two piece to the white one piece. Your lens might come from that era--serial # in the 3.4M range.</p>

<p>x</p>

<p>I'm glad it turned out well for you, John. Given the circumstances you describe, I certainly don't think your expectation of receiving the original box was unreasonable. They have value because they make the equipment more desirable as a collectable item. </p>

<p>I don't understand the sometimes visceral scorn some people have for collectors. A lot of vintage Leica cameras would not be around for photographers to use today if it were not for collectors, or conservators if you will. I have found that having become slightly handicapped myself, that a great many collectors of anything are handicapped people. For them, this hobby is one of the pursuits that makes life worth while. I'm still able to get out and photograph, but not the way I used to. Consequently, I have become interested in collecting some vintage Leica and Nikon equipment which does not require much physical effort and brings me a great deal of pleasure researching and locating the items.</p>

<p>When I pass away, an opportunist will likely pick up some nice equipment at "my" estate sale. Some photographer or collector will consider themselves very lucky. ;-)</p>

<p>Well, exchanging a wonderful lens (by all your accounts) for the same properly boxed one as you have agreed to be done might leave you with a perfectly good box but an inferior lens, just because lenses come with statistical differences.</p>

<p>I hope you will enjoy the new box, even if the new lens turns out to not please you quite as much. A small insecurity here, can you see this?<br>

You had a statistically excellent sample, why tempt fate?</p>

<p>I do not mind collectors, please collect, by all means. But I worry that you might saddle the horse from the wrong lens: first the box, then the lens ... in a kind of backwards way ... since you actually want to use it, too. Ah, good luck!</p>

<p>"I don't understand the sometimes visceral scorn some people have for collectors" I agree with you Robert-there are some who appear to have scorn for just about anything and everything and there are a few of those here on Photo.net; their posts usually go something like "user error!" or "don't worry about it- just go out and shoot pictures". If you see their replies on various posts, you will rarely see a helpful reply; they should just be ignored if they have nothing useful to say. For this particular post, although I don't keep the boxes, I fully understand those who do and the original poster's concern. regards, cb :-)</p>

<p>When I first started to buy Leica gear, I threw away the boxes, only to regret it when I came to sell them. They fetched a lower price.<br>

Then when I bought brand new Leica gear, my dealer told me several times to keep the boxes, and indeed they sold for higher, when I sold them many years later.<br>

Leica knows this. Some of their equipment came with a plain, brown outer box with the nice "real" box inside. My dealer said I could throw away the outer box but I thought "why bother"? So now I keep even the brown outer boxes, just as a protective layer.<br>

Irrational? Of course. But if this increases the value of your assets, who's one to argue?<br>

I think you are perfectly justified in asking your dealer to replace the box, unless, of course, a reasonable explanation is given, one which could satisfy the future buyer.</p>

<p>Think about it. It's not just the box itself that's of value. While some psychology may play into it, the presence of the original box is a somewhat reliable indicator that the owner was a collector or someone who took good care of their equipment. Translation- the lens is more likely to be in nice or nearly unused condition. That's one reason why people pay $100+ more for a lens with all the original stuff it came with. Sort of like somebody who sells a car and has all the oil change and service receipts. And dealers aren't dumb. Unless he was in a hurry or just made a mistake, it may be he thought he could get away with the sale if he only mentioned "boxed"- which technically could mean any box- as opposed to something like "all original packaging."</p>

<p>Thanks for your input Henry, that's why I asked the original question but there was no serial no on the box and the design looked 15 years or more older than the date of the lens, even given Leica's fairly stately changes.<br>

Charles, Nee Sung, Ray, again thanks for your balanced posts and for understanding that the question was a simple one about Leica packaging practices.<br>

I'm new to this forum and I asked what I believed to be a polite question that requested a simple and factual answer - it was not an emotional question - I did not name or flame anyone including the dealer who made the mistake. Thank you to those who helped with balanced answers.<br>

Frank thanks for your note, but not for the patronising tone. Wanting an expensive lens to be in the condition and complete state as it was described doesn't suddenly make an idiot with no common sense. I still have the original lens and I will try out the new lens before deciding whether to accept the exchange.<br>

I'm not a war correspondent, rarely find myself having to duck and cover and land on my camera in the dirt, and therefore it seems to me to make sense to take some pride in how I look after my equipment. I was able to purchase a MINT M8.2 because the previous owner had take great care of the camera before me.<br>

In my 16 years or so experience of forums on mnay topics these people that try to impose their own emotional issues on simple factual questions and answers are often the same ones that reply to absolutely every single post on a forum (whatever the subject). Knowing the time it takes to read and reply to one or two posts one can only conclude that these are the people who have no other life and are not actually 'out there just shooting'...<br>

Forums, dontcha love 'em.</p>

 

<p>It is possible that it is the right "wrong" box, as I had a Midland box which then received a new Wetzlar sticker put on it - in other words Leica reboxed it themselves, but I have to agree it is poor form to pass off as a "boxed item" when it is not the original box. I guess it all depends whether you actually felt you paid a premium <em>because</em> it was in the box. If you didn't, and it was effectively an extra, I would not take it any further myself.</p>

<p>Leica GMB is cash strapped and finished off the old boxes. Does it have a matching serial number?</p>

<p>10% premium with the correct carton & matching serial #.</p>

<p>You can be surprised how long some camera stuff sits on shelves, even new stuff from the 50's. Sometimes Leica does use old packaging though. One example is that of the Canadian E60 21mm Elmarit. This lens was meant to have a 49mm filter front originally to which they decided to make it a larger E60 instead. But when you look at the box its has the E49 one pictured on the side so they already had the boxes printed and just used them! In your case Its odd the box doesnt have a serial number on it, that does make me suspicious, speak to the dealer he may have just made a mistake.</p>