randy_johnson5

Using a scanner as a densitometer is an ancient idea, and one that's been given plenty of airing on P.net and elsewhere years ago.

 

But which Zone VIII would you use? The one that's sensitometrically correct, or Ansel Adams' strange fudge where Zone V is only 2.5 stops less?

 

My interest is to determine the film density that will yield a print value that prints as a textured highlight, usually referred to as Zone 8. Thus any film density greater than this "Zone 8" film density will print as the pure white paper base. My test results yielded a film density of 1.74 for textured highlights (Zone 8). So, that supports your suggestion to keep highlight densities to about 1.8. I am comfortable with developing my Zone 8 exposures to about 1.75 and set my developing time for each film accordingly. That should yield a good printable negative when scanned and printed on my inkjet photo printer.

 

Reading from AA's "The Negative":

If a "pure white" object with an assumed Lambertian reflectance of 100% (or close to) is allocated to Zone 8 - sorry, can't be bothered with the Roman numerals anymore - and each zone has a one stop spacing; then zone 5 should have a reflectance close to 12.5%. But no! AA claims a zone 5 reflectance is "mid-gray" at 18% reflectance. One half stop higher than it logically should be, and making objects at zone 8 have a reflectance of 144%!!

 

If the man that invented the system can't even be consistent in its application, then what use is that system?

 

And who today is going to develop individual frames to N, N -1, or N +1 etc?

 

The idea of keeping the printable and scannable Dmax to 1.8D or thereabouts is absolutely sensible. But please drop the archaic and imprecise Zone VIII when referring to it.

Since many folks prefer to scan black & white negatives and print on a photo printer rather than print using an enlarger, I would like to propose a way to calibrate the Zone VIII film development test using a scanner and densitometer.

 

Needed: A photo scanner & densitometer.

(Note: it is possible that some scanners have a densitometer capability but I am not knowledgeable)

A photographic film tablet (step wedge) – calibrated or not.

Knowledge in how to do the Zone System film speed test.

A photo printer

 

Step 1. After completing the film speed test, then expose a negative for Zone VIII. Develop the film normally according to the manufacturers instructions.

Step 2. Scan the photographic tablet (step wedge) and print it on your printer.

Step 3. Choose the step that best represents a Zone VIII print value that has just a bit of tone before all other steps are pure white.

Step 4. Measure the density of the step that prints Zone III.

Step 5. Measure the density of your exposed Zone VIII negative and compare with the density of the step wedge in the previous step.

If the step wedge density is greater than your exposed Zone III exposure increase development time by 25% and re-test as above.

If the step wedge density is less than your exposed Zone VIII negative then reduce development time by 25% and re-test as above.

I believe this system will yield Zone VIII negative values that will print as Zone VIII print values.

 

If you don't have access to a densitometer you can try and eye ball the comparison between the step wedge and Zone VIII negative. It will at least get you in the "ball park."

 

Thoughts?

I wouldn't recommend it. Too much agitation and possible damage to other negs banging around. Just use tray development.

The nitrate negs concern me. I would separate them and do research on how to safely store them. I would scan them and

then either destroy them or freeze them since they are more unstable than safety film.

I would use your Canon 10D as a benchmark for exposure and then match your Seconic to yield the same shutter speed

and f stop. You could just adjust the film speed on the Seconic to yield the same shutter speed and f stop you got on the

correct exposure with the Canon.

I recommend you try a graduated neutral density filter for shots that include sky. This will lower the brightness of the sky with sun.

Wonderful for sunsets. I use a Cokin P.

<p>The best presentation of how to achieve the results for shadow and highlight detail that I have seen is the DVD sold by Calumet on the Black & White Negative by Fred Picker. Just do a search on Picker. There are 3 videos, all excellent. The one will show you the testing procedures you will need to do with your own equipment. You will do a film speed test and then a Development time test. Great stuff and easy to understand. The best $40 I have ever spent!</p>

<p>You should get archival results from using two fixing baths (split the total fix time in half for each fixing bath) and then use hypo-clearing agent before good washing. The goal is to get rid of all remainng fixer. You can check your results with Kodak's HT-2 but I don't think it's necessary. I would vote to save toning for final prints and not negatives. </p>

<p>The best resource I know of is the DVD sold by Calument called, Black & White Photography. It has 3 videos by Fred Picker. The one on the negative is great. $40.00. It has a clear presentation of the film speed test, proper proof sheet, print speed test and talks about expansion and contraction. You will need to do those tests to properly use n + 1 and n-1 refinements. Basically, for scenes that lack contract you want to expand the negative to get good blacks and highlights. For scenes where the range of tones is too high to print all values from black to white with detail, you will want to compress the negative so that all of the values will fit the tonal scale of the photo paper you are using. </p>

<p>Now I realize that this is a film processing forum but I think it would be much easier with probably better results, to just scan the negatives and convert them to positives. Save the positive image file onto a CD or DVD and put into a Powerpoint presentation. Then you can view them on any computer or use a video projector. My guess is that older B/W negatives will be helped with some photo editing software, like Photoshop Elements.</p>

<p>An old-fashioned mercury fever thermometer is pretty accurate. Place it in water around 99 F and then measure with all of your other thermometers. You are better off using three to compare the results. Of course, you must hope that your other thermometers are actually linear down to developing temps. If you can adjust your thermometers to agree to the mercury then you will have a pretty good benchmark. </p>

<p>A Zone I exposure should be .08-.10 above film base plus fog. Zones 2 & 3 will be higher than that. There are lots of variables at work here so I wouldn't be too firm on an exact density for Zone 8. The best explanation of all of the Zone testing and procedures was a video made by Fred Picker of Zone VI studios in the early 1990's. You can buy the 3 video set (now on DVD) from Calumet for $40 off Ebay. You could also buy the original VHS tape Photographic Techniques. What you want is a Zone 8 density that will yield a Zone 8 print value from your enlarger on your paper.</p>

<p>When film is properly exposed you will get a good black level when printing. Longer development times add more density to the highlights. The goal is to obtain highlight densities that will result in good white, or highlight values in the print and good black print values. If you under-develop you will lower the highlight values and it will be difficult to obtain good whites in the print. In this case, it would be wise to use higher contrast paper. If you over-develop then it will be easy to get highlights that are "blown out" with little or no detail in the print. You can increase exposure in the enlarger to tone down the pure white values so you show some detail but that usually will yield black values with little or no texture detail. The goal is to get rich dark values with detail and highlight values that show detail, with little or no print values that are pure white (no detail). Getting a correct development time is important. </p>

<p>Since it's a special B'day I would buy new. Be aware that the new Canon 60D should be available in Oct. That will, no doubt, depress the 50Ds selling price. It has an LED screen that articulates and is smaller and does HD video too. It's worth a look, at least. I would be tempted to just buy a kit since you save a bit. My Canon 40D kit came with a flash and bag from Costco. I like my 18-55mm kit lens. It's a good place to start.</p>

<p>If it were me, I would set the film speed on the camera at 125. That should yield photos that an accurate meter would render at ISO 200. In my book, I would rather over-expose than under-expose if I am wrong. I hope your meter is linear or it will be difficult to understand all the variables in play here. I think it's a good suggestion to shoot another roll at ISO 200. That would be about what an accurate meter would render at ISO 320. At least you could compare what you get and go from there. If you really want to nail this down, I recommend you buy the DVD Black and White Photography by Fred Picker. Calumet sells it and you can find it on Ebay for $40. The clearest instruction I ever received! Good luck and keep learning!</p>

<p>If your sky values are too high, you might try reducing your development time. Are your other highlight values blocked (too light with no detail) along with the sky? If so, it sounds like too much film development to me. The best explanation of all this that I have found is the Zone VI workshop video (Ebay) on Film and Processing techniques. Calumet still sells the 3 video series on a DVD. It's got clear directions and you can view it over and over.<br>

You might buy another graduated ND filter. Cokin sells them in different densities. I recently needed to use all three on one image to bring the sky values down.</p>

<p>To be sure, you could always develop and fix a roll of unexposed film, and see if there is any fogging. It looks like there is some on your film edges. If it doesn't go much deeper into the negative area, you will probably be o.k.</p>

<p>1. I don't think mixing different brands of chemicals is a problem. They are just slightly different.<br>

2. 1:9 means one part solution A to 9 parts water. That's different from 1:14. That would be one part solution A to 14 parts water.<br>

3. You pre-mix these solutions in separate containers. I suggest you get the chemicals within 1 degree F of each other before processing. Use a large tub of water to put the containers in with mixed solutions. That helps a bit for consistency.<br>

4. Fix film in Rapid Fix for 1-2 minutes. Fix film in regular fixer 5-10 minutes. There should be little instruction sheets included with your chemicals. You should read these. There is a difference between fixing film and paper, whick takes longer.<br>

5. Sure, use Stop Bath for more consistent results. You can agitate a bit more with Stop bath if you want. I think the standard time for Stop Bath for Film is 30 sec.<br>

6. The test procedure is the time it takes for a film to clear to clear film. I wouldn't worry about this. Just keep your fixer fairly fresh. Use Edwal Hypo testing solution to test your fixer. If the drop of Edwal turns white, then throw out the fixer.<br>

7. After the Stop bath, (save it) you can rinse with water if you like. No harm and it helps the fixer last a bit longer but you don't have to.</p>

<p>It sounds like you would like to focus within 18 inches. If so, a true macro lens would be my recommendation. With a crop factor of 1.5 for most Nikon bodies, a 50mm macro becomes a 75mm which is decent working distance and is cheaper than the 100mm macros.</p>

<p>This seems like too little development time to me. Check your developing procedures and developer dilutions also. Are you agitating 5 sec every 30 sec during development?</p>

<p>Well, you can do a film speed test for BW film and test for a Zone I density .10 above film base + fog (clear film). Then, you can do a print development test and test for a Zone VIII print value. After you get that, you can read the density of the Zone VIII negative and set a development procedure that will produce consistent Zone VIII densities at your value. So that's a good way to use a densitometer. You can also develop a method to read your negative densities before printing and you can zero in on an enlarger exposure time pretty quickly.</p>

<p>The best explanation of the Zone System for me was the video "Photographic Technique" by Fred Picker of Zone VI Studios. Calumet now sells it on DVD with the other two he made. I think you only need a densitometer or the film speed test. Everything else is done with an enlarger and paper. I have all the books everyone else has mentioned, and I still prefer the video. I think all of those tests will work with any of today's films and developers. A classic combo is Tri X with HC110 solution B. If you can't find anyone else to do the film speed test, contact me, if you can. I can do it for you with my densitometer. Good luck.</p>

<p>For your long shots of deer you might consider the Canon 200mm f2.8 L lens. Your Canon 40D has a crop factor of 1.6x. Thus, a 200mm lens is equivalent to a 320mm on film cameras. That's not a bad telephoto and f2.8 helps with light and deer movement. You can always add the Canon Tele-Extender 1.4x. That would give you a 448mm telephoto but you will give up one f stop in speed with the extender.</p>

<p>In my experience, plastic reels need to be completely dry or they can jam. When cutting off the film leader in the dark, which is a bit of a trick, do try and cut it as square as possible. Also, check to see if you have cut into the sprocket holes. If so, that little extra edge of film by the sprocket hole can get caught. Feel the corners of the film where you cut. You can probably tell if you have a hanging edge of film left. If so, just cut off a small corner on each side of the film edge. (Remember that you are working at the end of the film where there are no images) This little triangle of film cut off helps the leading edge of the film slide easier into the film reel. The goal is to get smooth film edges at the corners. If you are into a sprocket hole, just cut the film end again and see if you cut in between the sprocket holes. Practice! In the dark, you can have a pretty good idea of how to cut square by positioning your thumb and first finger squarely opposite one another in the dark, with the film in between.<br>

If your hands get quickly sweaty when loading the film in the changing bag, which can happen especially in the warm weather, your finger prints can end up on the processed film. Here is my solution.<br>

If you have a bathroom (or other room) with no windows and only one door try this. Buy a roll of darkroom cloth (Internet search). It's rubberized cloth about 36" wide. Then buy a 6 foot piece of wood 1" x 1/4" moulding (simple square edges). Cut the moulding to the width of the darkroom cloth. Glue the cloth between the two pieces of the moulding. Clamp overnight works best. Then screw in two little circular eyelets into the wood on the top edge. Then, get two fairly large picture hangers. They have a hole for a nail and a sharp V shaped end designed to hold the picture wire. Make sure that the V shaped end extends beyond the wood door frame. Carefully put a small nail through the hole through the hanger and into the very top of the wood moulding on the outside edge of the door frame. This is on the outside of the door if the door swings inward, into the room. You want the darkroom cloth to hang over the doorway on the outside of the door opposite where it swings. Cut the length of the darkroom cloth about 6-10 inches longer than the doorway. That way it drapes on the outside of the door and provides good light protection at the bottom of the door. Once you construct this you can make virtually any room light tight quickly for film loading and your hands won't become wet inside a little bag. The film can hang down from your hands in the room, so no crinkles. You can leave the little nail through the picture hanger in place and just swing the picture hanger to each side and they just sit on top of the door frame and you can't really see them and you haven't damaged the door frame either. For me, this was a fairly simple, one time, construction that's pretty inexpensive and it works great. Good luck.<br>

(You can also go to stainless steel reels and tanks but be sure to practice with old film to get the bend right when loading the film onto the steel reels.)</p>

<p>Travis,<br>

What you need to find is a Paterson System 4 Force Film Washer. It has a rubber fitting that goes over just about any faucet and a flexible tube with a tapered hard plastic fitting on the other end that fits into the hole in the top of the lid (closed) of the Paterson System 4 tank. (Congrats on finding one! I hope you got the little black plastic extension handle that fits into the top hole used for turning and agitating the film reels. If you didn't, just put on the tank lid and invert the tank once every 30 sec. during developing). Look on Ebay. I really don't know if Paterson tanks and accessories are available new.<br>

Now, if you just can't find it I would recommend a Zone VI film washer (also available on Ebay). These are really nice as you just take the film (keep on the reels) out of the Paterson tank and put them into the Zone VI film washer. Just set the Zone Vi washer in a sink and turn on the water into the Zone VI--no other tubes or connections. Wash for 10-15 min or so and then pour out the water. Pour in the Photo flo solution for 1 min or so and then you can take the film off the reels and squeegee and hang to dry. Pour the Photo flo back into the storage jug. If you want to go cheap. Just put the film reels into some container and let soak for a couple of minutes and then just dump the water and add new water and soak again. Do this several times and you should be o.k.<br>

The point about not being too fussy about all the other chemical temperatures is well taken. But the developer temp is CRITICAL. As the prior poster says, control it to ONE degree. Doing that manually is harder than it sounds. Just put your thermometer in the developer solution and watch over 5 minutes (stir a little). Get a good thermometer than can read in less than 1 degree ticks. If it's hot or cold in the room temp just pay attention to what's actually happening. I highly recommend a water bath for at least the developer to keep that temp controlled as best as you can. Any fairly deep plastic tub will work. Once the developer is warmed or cooled to the 68f (recommended) put the graduate containing the developer into a water bath of 68 degrees. At least you will start development at 68 degrees. This will help maintain the developer temp to give you consistent results. I just got used to doing this for all the chemicals but if your stop bath is a few degrees warmer, you are still fine. Actually, if the house water temperature is much warmer or colder than the developer temp, you might want to actually gradually warm or cool the other processing chemistry to gradually match the final washing water temp. Again, perhaps a little over kill, but it can only help you to do this and requires only a little more effort. I guess the key to what I am saying is that to develop a carefully controlled developing process for yourself to help you get consistent development. If you do, you can then change development in a controlled way for the results you are looking to achieve. I still recommend the Zone VI Workshop book (used) by Fred Picker. It covers film processing. There is even a better video and now DVD through Calumet on Zone VI Studios: Film and Technique, but they may be a bit advanced now. If you discover you love B/W processing you can move to video/dvd later. ---Randy</p>