darius.tulbure

"With a better camera I'll be a better photographer." This is in my opinion also not true. Of course, a better camera means better image quality and more flexibility. But that's all.<p>

 

For two years I have been shooting with point and shoot cameras and I plan to buy a D80 the next year. In these two years I learned a lot, I've done lots of experiments and discovered plenty of things. I'm not saying my photography is good, but surelly is better than it was two years ago. And btw, I don't think I will be ever a "professionist". I shoot only for the art's sake. I'm not sure I will ever make money from this.<p>

 

However - you know why I have decided to buy a DSLR? <b>Because I feel I have squeezed all that I could from my P&S cameras.</b><p>

 

Did you sqeezed all that you could from your D70? Do you feel that with your D300 you could make more money, or better art? If yes, don't worry.

Congrats and thanks!

 

You made a good job with the site. The menu gives us full control and the "my

workspace" section is more comprehensive. A good point is that you've

incorporated the site feedback forum in the Community menu, which makes it much

easier to access. The same thing with "Register/Subscribe". I love the fact that

I can actually manage my portfolio from my workspace - it is now no longer

necessary to click "Manage your portfolio".

 

The best thing now I guess is the fact that you can choose the order of your

photos within a folder. That's great! Now you can precisely choose the photos'

order and perhaps create a story line. I'd had a single suggestion: to align

right the "add a photo | re-order photos" menus in order to make everything

easier to read.

 

Anyhow, a good job my friends! Thank you!

My tone was too ironic. Not proud of that. I have a big mouth.

What I do not understand is what is a bogus account. A software led account? Who is doing that? And what is the reason to make the effort to create a software which gives high ratings?

<p>

Anyways, if these bogus ratings are given by machines, the captcha is a good, full automatic solution to block them.

<p>

The idea is that since now there have been lots of symptoms of the system's PROBLEM (no "s", it is just one) and the PN crew tried to fix them. One of them is the mythical 3/3 rater. I see rare complaints about him/her. That's clearly a good thing. But you never know, maybe there still are some people rating everything low or randomly. (I don't know. I have no proofs. I'm just saying that you never know. It's just a premise - I'm trying to make a point.) The second is the ratings that are blocked for the reason that the rater is new. It is just not the best solution. Firstly because you cannot judge one's integrity by his seniority. Secondly, the moderators don't have the time to verify the ratings in question and the ratings are unblocked... we know both how. Thirdly, the system revokes a part of the already small number of ratings an average photo receives.

<p>

<b>And here is the point.</b> The problem with the rating system is the <b>small average number of ratings a photo receives on PN</b> (let's call this number <b>"qr"</b>). <p>

 

The 3/3 rater, the bogus accounts, the anonymousness of the ratings, the mate rating etc. etc. are just symptoms of a single problem. Just one! And that's very good news!

<p>

If the qr would be - let's say - 30, all these symptoms would dramatically diminish in magnitude. It's clear that if 3 bogus ratings out of 10 may alter the final score, 3 bogus ratings out of 30... well that's mathematically unlikely to happen. So, all the symptoms above should be solved if somehow the qr would grow somewhere beyond 20-30.

<p>

What can PN do about that? Well, find a way to stimulate its members to rate more. Could set even a norm: for each photo a member wants to receive critiques and ratings, that member has to rate... 15 photos for instance. This is not too hard I guess, and BTW, it's not my original idea, but I find it genius!

<p>

I'm very enthusiastic about this! Just think, Josh! How much time do you need to anonymously rate 15 photos? Minimum 2 minutes! (but if someone wants to give more selectively 15 ratings, he/she can spend 30 minutes for that - there is no rush). And now that you introduced the captcha, there is no risk that someone could set a software to give the 15 required ratings...

<p>

And there are much more benefits: a more accurate photo ranking, a more illustrative TRP, more feed-back (if the comments lack, an average of 30 ratings can be an accurate indicator of a photo's quality), members would start to think about giving feedback not just posting 4 photos a day without at least rating some photos if not commenting some, and many others yet to be discovered.

<p>

I'm very interested about what do you think about this, Josh.

Thank you for being patient with me :)

You don't like me too much, Mike. And I don't blame you. Why don't I just shut up?!

Maybe I post the same questions because I never receive a decent answer. I'm not that obsessed with ratings how I may seem, I just want to understand how is this working, cause it's really a mystery. And Harris, it's not about what I deserve. Frankly I find my current ratings as being quite fair. But of course, you all think I'm desperate to get the highest ratings on Earth and become some kind of star on PN. LOL.

 

Acid an ironic answers don't help anyone and I surely don't feel like being more diplomatic. What for? What I'm saying bothers not how I say it. And I'm not the only here thinking this way... or maybe I really am... everybody else is gone now or uses the site sporadically.

 

As I said in the past - quality is not that important if you can sell in big quantities. For short to middle term of course.

 

Sorry for being ironic. Nothing personal.

Kill the rebel. Kick me out. Whatever. Photo.net is not that unique anymore. Unfortunately...

The mysteriously disappearing ratings. You know, yesterday I had 14 ratings for

a photo, today I have 9. The same thing happened to another one... The curious

thing is that they were all good ratings (above 5). So... let me get this

straight: somehow some buggy ratings passed the "new members' ratings" filter

and haven't been blocked. Maybe it's some kind of software which randomly and

unexpectedly gives me good ratings for no reason.

 

Thank God we have a captcha! Definitely it will solve all the system's problems.

 

Another crutch to an already crutched and patched system. What's next?

A university, a church, a professor, a radio station - they are all service providers. Even the free hi5 is a service. So how come, PN, a subscription-based online community isn't a service?

 

PN is a business, even though for me or you looks like just a mere "website".

Thank you Ryan for your feedback - I was looking for it. The image's aspect is intentional in every aspect; the grain is due to the paper's texture I've used and maybe I've added some B&W noise as well. The out-of-focus appearance is due to the post-processing in its whole.<p>

David, I agree with you. But a rating is better than nothing. However, to make a comment compulsory won't make any good. There are two possible things that could happen: either the comments would be even shorter than they are today, either the number of ratings would be fewer than today. And that's not good.<p>

The best solution would be to compel every member who wants to upload a photo to rate a certain number of images, anonymously or not. I thought about a number between 15-25 ratings per uploaded photo. That isn't too much, knowing that normally you don't upload 4 photos in 24 hours, excepting the case you post everything you shoot... The effect would be great: fewer rating scams, a more reliably selected TRP, a more pronounced interest for others' work, a better customer satisfaction.<P>

 

Yes, PN, you are a service provider, and the quality of your service depends greatly on the customers' behavior. It is not so hard to use marketing levers to enhance your service. After all, ideas don't cost much, but they can worth alot!

Yes, and of course new members are vandals whilst the elder ones are gentlemen. It wouldn't be a problem if those ratings will be ever verified. It's a cheap bot's game: block all the anonymous numberz from the less than 1 or 2 or 3 month(s) old members, and unlock them after a period of 3 days (making through this sure the photo doesn't get in the TRP) when a new rating comes along for that photo.<p>How shouldn't I be angry? When I see good numbers blocked and bad numbers on? How can the bot say which numbers are valid? What? A 3/3 from an old leach is more valuable and upright than a 6/7 from a new member who might be a very good photographer and/or critic? And again, definitely an anonymous 6/7 from a new member demonstrates that that particular member isn't a leach nor wants to play the mate rating game. <p>Or what? Maybe I've asked 3 buddies to create an account and to rate my photo high? That's ridiculous! <P> The rating system is ill and this kind of patches make more bad than good. If a photo would receive a number of let's say 25 ratings in average, all this kind of nonsense would be risible.<p>So, the photo.net admins found a solution to the low average number of ratings a photo gets: they block a considerable part of them. Gush!

Of course I'm talking about the anonymous ones...

I've posted <a

href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?topic_id=1481&msg_id=00MbVf&photo_id=6422878&photo_sel_index=0">this

</a>@4AM and it seems only the 5, 6 and 7s are blocked ('cause you know, they

are from new members)... Therefore, my photo in stead of having a decent

4.80/5.20 it has 3/3.50. Give me a break! I'm not looking particularly for the

ratings, but they are a good quality and/or value index, especially when

comments are missing. <p>What can understand a newbie? That his/her photo is

crap only because a bot blocked the good thoughts of the "new members"?

Mike, all the way I was thinking about the photo.net mission. My comment was based on that, not on a subjective argument like what is important for me. But then again, the PN's mission is not specifically stated in the about us page. <p>However though, the phrase "We started in 1993 and strive to be the best peer-to-peer educational system for people who wish to become better photographers." seem to be very prominent. <p>Tell me how can I get to be a better photographer by talking on all forums other than the critique forum, without viewing the really best uploaded photos and without getting a decent (amount of) feedback (comments & ratings)? Maybe through a tutorial or a practical inquiry on a specialized forum? Yeah, i agree those are good tools too. But definitely, you need more.

Oh, spelling errors! In the beginning of my post I wanted to say "as in members or managerial staff". Nobody means therefore all the people here.

Josh, I was saying that nobody (as in members of managerial staff) cares about the specific problems pointed by me. I was certainly not pointing at you or anyone in particular. I read the whole list from the Letter and I think there are good ideas for improving the user experience (usability), software issues, account management and so on. <p>But, I was talking about marketing and the most important feature of PN: the critique forum. Then come along the TRP and the rating system. These things are the major priority, although the forums and the tutorials have their importance too. <p>Maybe I should stop complaining and just leave... Donno, I still believe in this site.

The way things work now here, photos might as well stay days in the critique forum without gathering a decent amount of feed-back...<p>Fred, as a programming problem, this is a piece of cake - I work daily with programmers and I know what I'm saying. You know what is difficult though? To find WILLING.

Jayme Hall, I am 100% with you. I've said these things not once, but no one seemed to agree. Maybe because I have no credibility? Sad however... PN is falling apart and nobody seem to care. Some years ago, PN was a place for professionals and eager "students". Now? A photographic nursery school! A photographic hi5! The average quality of photos has lowered, nobody critiques and almost nobody rates anymore. Everybody frenetically uploads tones of sloppily crafted images. And even if you take the time to express your honest opinion about it, they don't care! These "photographers" make photographs, not art and they are not here to learn, neither to form a community. I'm sick of it! And what I find particularly sad is, as you said, the serious people packed and left the site, a year-two ago and they keep leaving! I there a solution? Plenty! Is there someone who cares? No. There are a lot of subscribers and a lot of audience for the site to make more money it ever made!

I will give each of you a reply. And a honest comment on your portfolio. I am aware of my mistake, and this is not a way to make things up. Under my disappointment and anger my words became acrid and rough. Please excuse me and please, above all, don't take it so personally. Some of you made me be ashamed by what I said, some of you responded at least with the same coin, only that my comment was a general one, not intended at somebody in particular.

It seems I am the black sheep here and I take full responsibility for it. Maybe my message sounds worst that I wanted to. However, I don't know why do you all think I have something against the learning system that photo.net provides. Actually it stops working - that is the problem. Everybody posts frenetically and nobody comments. God forbid to leave a honest comment on a bad photo! You will get a beautiful revenge comment and a bad rating at best! 90% of those who post bad photography aren't here to really learn, and neither they critique dare I say. And yes, the quality threshold here has lowered greatly in the last year. I'm here from 2005 so I should know what I am talking about. <p>By selecting its audience I didn't meant to make PN members leave or ban them, gush! I was thinking about a sign up - acceptance system though which only the people who are really interested in photography and want to learn something should be allowed. However, I'm sorry I've offended and bothered you with my "elitist" complaints, particularly because for many of you I have great respect.

Maybe it's just me... But sometimes I really can't click on any photo in the

photo critique forum. Why? Because no one "promises" me I will see something

good. Are just snapshots. Seriously, if photo.net wants to last forever, it

needs to select its audience... Otherwise? Well, it will become an autistic

photographic hi5.

 

I will be very sad if that will happen... but anywayz, I'm preparing...

You are right. IMO we should rate at least one extra general aspect like the Technical Execution.

It is about <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?topic_id=1481&msg_id=00M8WA&photo_id=6280475&photo_sel_index=0">this one</a> and <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?topic_id=1481&msg_id=00M8W1&photo_id=6280464&photo_sel_index=0">this one</a>. <p>Thank you guys. I'm not sure I want to make a big case out of this...

Somebody must have searched for them, of course, in the rate category section!

He or she must have browsed a lot. But he or she must have had a really

compelling reason. Revenge? Not excluded; I make uncomfortable comments

sometimes... <p>But here we go again: if you really want decent feed-back for

your work you have to make "constructive-eulogistic" comments to as much photos

as possible. Is this normal? 90% of the photos posted here are tasteless

snapshots. What should we do? Lie? Not comment them at all? Make constructive

critique? As I heard somebody saying, you can't make constructive critique to a

really bad photo, because otherwise you will finish by saying "the photo would

have been great if you had shot another subject, with a different light, with

different gear and set of skills".

I hope so. Thanks!

Why every time I want to access the site, it requires me to sign in, and then to

sign up, and then again to sign up?... And finally - it seems - the only way to

access my account is to go to the forums menu where I have to post a question.

There again I have to fill the sign in form and... TA-DAAA! Here I am.<p>First

I've thought the site needs my detailed personal info like the address and I've

tried to complete the "join" forum. Of course - error. So... What could be the

problem?

Pete, John Henneberger pointed out one of the many reasons for allowing the anonymous ratings.

 

Once I used to hate myself too the anonymous rating system. But once I understood that this is the only way to keep things cool, while the ratings would reflect realistically the value of the photos, my hatred disappeared.

 

That doesn't mean I'm happy with the system. On the contrary. And I have a lot of ideas for improvement. Some of them were expressed in several previous postings...

 

But here I won't come with solutions. Not until we will agree about the problems PN has.

 

DIAGNOSIS

 

Symptoms:

 

1. Low number of valuable comments. This number has lowered (and it's still lowering) since the day I've joined the site, back in December 2005.

 

2. Low number of ratings. This number is getting lower and lower allowing and encouraging 3/3 raters, bogus raters, bots, fake accounters and random raters to take action, powerfully tainting the system.

 

3. The average photographs' value has lowered too. More and more novices are joining whilst experienced photographers are leaving. New people is a good thing when there is an equilibrium. What it's happening now is PN becoming a photographic hi5, 'cause since everybody can handle a camera, everybody is a photographer. I can say without mistaking much that the nowadays' TRP looks almost like the 2005's photo critique forum queue, and the nowadays' critique forum queue looks like a bunch of photos you find in a commercial photo laboratory center where people go printing their trip or family photos.

 

There are several other smaller "symptoms", but I would like to know if you more or less agree with these 3 in hand.