macgregor_anderson

Chuck, that's a very interesting point and one I will take to heart. When I first got into black and white in high school, almost 20 yrs ago, I felt my printing skills were pretty strong relative to everything else. 18 or 19 years went by, and I picked it up again. While I still enjoy printing, I tend to focus much more on finding great light and interesting shots. This has made printing easier, but I bet I'm not getting nearly what I could out of my negatives. I've been using Ilford Multigrade IV in Dektol (big surprise) and fooled around a little with Seagull. I adjust my contrast, dodge and burn, but probably haven't put in enough effort with these things. I've got a backlog of negatives I want to print. Sounds like greater care in the darkroom may be the most important next step for me.

 

Scott,

 

Thanks for the suggestion on the new developer for T grain films. I haven't used the 400 speed T Max yet (suggested once before here) but I certainly could use the improved reciprocity and speed.

Graham,

 

That's a very good point and I touched on it I think earlier in the thread. Do I need to see a problem or some missing potential before trying something new? There is a good chance that I do. I certainly don't have any complaints about the film and developer I am using.

 

However, I do see other people's shots from time to time where I can't imagine my film and developer returning a similar look. It may be darkroom skill, or better light, a finer subject, etc. And I'm not talking about a case where it's just a much better photographer taking a much better picture. It's like oils, or water color, or ink. Not so pronounced, but a different medium. Does that make sense?

 

I suppose a better way to go about this would be for me to look for other people's shots that I admire and that I don't think I could come close to replicating (even if I had the vision and technical skills), and see what combo they have used. Try it for myself, and see if it makes a difference.

 

I must say, it would be very interesting to see a real study on this. That's why I hinted at it's being a great class project. Or photo club project. I'd just love to see a few examples of the same thing shot with different films and developers. And a few of those scenes.

 

I guess playing with TMax has my curiousity up more than anything. It is unpredictable for me. A LOT of washed out muddy looking shots that I think FP4 or HP5 would have handled better. And a few fairly striking results that I wouldn't expect to see on those other two. But I'm afraid I don't have the vocabulary or critical experience to describe what is sometimes lacking and sometimes rewarding with a given film. Maybe I should read a bit more on the subject.

 

I would say that it is less accutance for me than it is tonal subtleties. But beyond that, I feel like I'm trying to describe a good wine and what I like, or worse, trying to describe an ideal wine and what I'd hope to find in it.

 

Mac

I haven't been out to a movie in four years. I watch very little television (maybe three hours a week). I wake up at 6am and go to bed around 11 mostly. I go out to eat once or twice a month.

 

I do enjoy cooking, however. I spent four hours yesterday making a nice Osso Bucco and safron Risotto (from Mario's cookbook). That morning I was rolling out homemade pita with my girlfriend's 3 y/o for turkey sandwiches. I smoked the turkey breast myself the night before. The day before I spent most of the day at the zoo with a that 3 y/o and her mom.

 

I've had my 4x5 for just under a year now. I've shot several hundred sheets of film (not including testing), sticking to the advice that I should learn one thing before jumping on to the next. Incidentally, I've also had a digital SLR for just over a year, and I've shot about 80 memory cards with on average 30 to 40 photos per card download. My passion is 4x5, but I find the DSLR to be a good tool for exploring new ideas. I also can't possibly afford the color film needed to shoot that much color 4x5. I've only just loaded color film holders for the first time a few weeks ago.

 

So photography is pretty important to me. I tested my FP4 and HP5 and tried testing TMax 100 (at the time I couldn't get consistent results on that one). I spent several weekend days with good even light exposing sheet after sheet on my shaded porch, running into the darkroom and tray developing. Finding standard contact printing times, making those contacts, inspecting my arrays of contact sheets and adjusting development times. It was fun, I learned a great deal, and I plan to do it again. Maybe I'll use a stepwedge as a time saver next time.

 

My point here is that even if you set your paper and paper developer constant, testing several new films combined with several new developers in several different real world situations would require an immense amount of work. And take time directly away from taking photographs. And I really need the practice there. Testing is very important to me and ultimately a time saver. But blind testing all those possible permutations seems a little nuts.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to inquire into these possible combinations. Makes more sense than randomly setting out.

 

When I need a new vehicle (not very often, I run mine til the wheels fall off) I don't just hit every single car dealer and testdrive every vehicle on the lot. I do a little research into what might fit my needs. Then I might test drive a few of them and make a decision.

 

I love the article on LFphoto.info on magic bullet chasers. I'm not expecting magic results without any effort. I know my vision or ideas will make the most difference. And then proper and careful technique. That some new combo won't suddenly propel me into the land of great photographers.

 

I just don't know what the kinds of things I like to shoot would look like if they were done on FP4 in Pyro, or Tmax or HP5 in Rodinal, or any of the other zillion combinations. I figure a real look at lots of examples might help. And while it really does matter to me, I'm not about to spend my life blindly testing one film and developer after another. There are too many good pictures to take with the films I know run through D76 1+1. There is too much good cooking to do. And did I mention I also like to fly fish? I cut down on that from four times a week to twice a month so I could take more photos.

 

Mac

Thanks, some very good suggestions. I think I may place an order at Photographers' Formulary for a couple of these and try for myself. I've got some fairly "static" scenes around here that I have shot already so I can compare the results.

 

I wish I had the time to pick a few scenes with very different light and contrast, shoot them with a couple different films, and try those films in different developers. Even with a couple films and a couple developers and maybe three scenes you are talking about a lot of work. Just finding your e.i. and normal and +/- development times takes a lot of time.

 

Great project for an intermediate or advanced photography class I'd think. If there are any schools out there or groups of students that want to tackle it, and post the results on the web to help guide others, I'd supply some film and developers.

 

Mac

Oh, and did I mean "crap shoot" or "craps shoot?"

 

And does the ? go before the " or after?

 

Mac

I've taken the advice. I've limited my film and developer choices

for a year now. FP4 and HP5 in D-76 1+1. Fooled around with Tmax

100 but really it's those other two. Tested for personal exposure

index and plus and minus developing. Shot several hundred sheets of

4x5. I know what to expect most of the time from these films with

this developer.

 

What's the best way to branch out from here?

 

Try a couple new developers?

 

Try some new films with the same developer?

 

Try a new combo of developer and film?

 

And with all the options out there, how does one find the most

promising new avenues?

 

Are there any websites with comparisons of the same shot using

different film and developer combos?

 

Any general info like "if you want subtle tones in zones VI and VII

while maintaining crisp blacks try this..." ?

 

Not expecting anybody to respond to all those questions. Just

curious, really. Are there any good resources for this next phase,

or is it a crap shoot?

 

Do I need to first figure out what I'd change about my shots, and be

able to explain this, before I can find my next combo?

 

Thanks for any answers to any of those questions, plus thanks for

the inevitable "you need to spend at least two decades with one film

and developer and one scene in one type of light before you even

think about shooting it vertical instead of horizontal, and then,

and only then, can you consider a different lens. Don't even think

about changing film or developer."

 

Cheers,

 

Mac

Thanks Dave, I'm still reading. I know slide film isn't anywhere near as forgiving as black and white. I don't know how to read film curves, and so I was looking for a highlight boundry where things go from slight detail to no detail. Figured I would expose my first few shots with that in mind, protecting the highlights, and also spot metering the shadows and keeping notes. I'm going into this figuring I've got about five stops to work with (I think you or someone earlier said three, but most of what I've read indicates five). I've got a year's experience exposing for shadows with b/w negative film and adjusting development for highlights. Here, I'm not planning on any adjustment, so I'll just spot meter the scene, throw out the specular highlights, keep the bright spots and let the shadows fall as they will. Unless I have a different idea for the scene, in which case I'll compromise a bit more.

 

Not sure what I'll do with these chromes. Flatbed scan to start, and if I ever get anything good I'll pay up for a drum scan.

 

I think shooting digital SLR stuff for a year has me pretty well trained in shooting with limited latitude. I don't have any noise reduction software and I figure I'm stuck with about the same choices as I will be with slide film. It's just real expensive stuff, this 4x5 Velvia 100F and I want to know where it will start blowing out before I try 1/2 stop bracketing, etc.

 

Thanks again. Maybe one day in a few weeks I'll have a photo to display here from all this. So far, in three days of looking, I've shot two sheets of b/w and no color. 4x5 teaches that discipline.

 

Mac

Thanks Dave. I like your bio..."try to do it for fun." That's what it's all about.

 

I only started thinking about blown highlights when I got a digital SLR that flashed them at me. But truth be told, I'd usually prefer a lot of dark areas without detail vs a lot of light areas without detail. I think.

 

That's for now. As I learn, I hope I can figure out how best to balance that in whatever scene I'm shooting. But right now, I'm just trying to figure out where that threshold is between bright but still a picture of something and bright plain and simple.

 

The hard part about black and white is figuring what to print. The great thing is the choices that negative gives you.

 

At the end of the day, I know I'm just going to take my careful meter reading, figure out exactly how to place my highlights, then let the cheap shutter on the cheap lens run for it's approximate time. My aperature will be accurate to within a half stop if I'm lucky. Then I'll slide the aperature a tad, and try again. And probably twice more, once up and twice down.

 

I'll write it down in a notebook that I'll forget to check. In some sort of short hand that I wouldn't be able to translate if I could find the notebook.

 

And I'll stare at the 4x5 chromes in wonder and hope I can do it again. Maybe even a little better next time.

 

I'll learn slowly because I'm just doing it for fun.

 

Thanks.

 

mac

I just got back into black and white a little over a year ago after many years away. I'm using a 4x5 camera but was otherwise in the same situation shooting similar subject matter.

 

I found FP4 to be very good to work with. I did my own speed and development time testing and this film was a breeze to work with. I tried Tmax 100 and it was much tougher to control. Finer grain, and some infrequent wonderful shots. But many more disappointments. I'm trying again with Tmax but I'd say FP4 is great to start with.

 

I'm just about to start shooting color 4x5. Bought some Velvia 100F after reading a bit on it. I'm trying to nail down the best exposure technique (see thread on Large Format forum) and I came across this article today. It shows some comparisons against the standard Velvia 50 and I think also Provia. Didn't answer my metering questions, but it might be of interest to you.

 

http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0803/gt0803-1.html

 

Good luck. I'll be interested to hear what you decide on.

 

Mac

Thanks for the responses. I plan to spot meter and keep notes. "field testing" you could call it. I've shot this stuff on 35mm and even a little 645 but I always bracketed. And this film is expensive enough that I figured a starting point was in order. That zone VII answer was just about what I thought, but I wasn't sure if I had another 1/3 or 1/2 or 2/3 stops beyond that. Now I've got a good idea where to start with the spot metering.

 

Since I'm using a Nikon F100 for a meter right now, I'll also check it's recommendation for the matrix metering and keep notes on that.

 

Thanks again.

I'm about to shoot my first 4x5 color after a year of black and

white. I got a box of Velvia 100F.

 

Where should I start with exposure? Measure the highlights and open

up 2, 3 stops? I understand I'm not exposing for shadows but to

protect highlights (in general). Just don't know how far those

highlights retain detail above zone V.

 

I know my meter is a factor in this. And my shutters. But, if it

helps, I shoot FP4 at 100 and HP5 at 320 for development in D76 1:1

at 68. That's just visual inspection testing.

 

I know I'll need to fine tune any responses here with good notes and

carefull metering in the field. Just hoping for a starting point.

 

So, where do you usually lose your detail with this film?

 

Thanks!

I visited Mt St Helens today. The Castle Rock observatory. Roads were completely clear. The views from the deck are out of this world. Weather could change, so check before heading out. I haven't worked on anything yet from today, but here is a jpeg snapshot...

Thanks for all the emails and further suggestions on the thread. I've had a very busy weekend and won't have a chance to respond right away to everyone, but hopefully within a couple days. I have received an number of extremely thoughtful emails loaded with information. Every single one has been clear and carefully written for someone with my limited experience. I really can't thank you all enough.

 

I did send an email to Wisner Sales the other day and was told that the problems are not normal and that they are covered and would be fixed if I sent the camera back to them. My decision to send the camera back to B+H is based on personal preference in situations like this. I just wanted to credit Wisner with responding immediately to the mail. No time frame for repairs was mentioned, and clearly that has been a problem for some people in the past. I won't be able to comment on that. All I can say is that I heard back right away.

 

Mac

It's going back to B+H soon as they reopen and I can get a return ref number. I'll be starting over from scratch. I'm sure Wisner makes great cameras but I got a serious lemon here.

 

Thanks for all the great help and advice. If anybody has any suggestions for a folding 4x5 field camera in this general price range, up to about 2500 max, I'd take it. Looking for solid build, smooth accurate movements. My lenses run 90-300 but I might expand a little in either direction.

 

I thought I researched this carefully ahead of time...and I probably just had bad luck. What a pain. This was a tough purchase for me and I was pretty excited about it.

two of four lensboards double as pinhole cameras...each has a distinct pin sized hole off center. That's the big problem. Bellows are fine. Seal around lens boards pretty good, around bellows perfect, questionable around darkslide to camera body.

Test images today produced a ghost image from the center of the frame up into the upper portion. Tests in the darkroom with a flashlight confirmed two of the four lens boards I received had pinholes in them!

 

Further testing revealed a faint amount of light escaping around the film holder/camera back. This was in pitch black with a mag lite shined right at it, so perhaps this is normal and won't fog the film unless I am careless with darkslides staying out for long periods.

 

To top it off, when I closed the thing up (very carefully, I know I may need to send this back so I'm using max caution) one of the spring pieces that hook onto the pegs to keep the thing folded up shot off. Two tiny screws holding it down were stripped. This was under very little pressure.

 

What would you do at this point? Is this all part of the fun of a wooden camera, or did I get a lemon? Obviously the lens board holes need fixing but...

Thanks very much for all the great responses. I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Didn't realise there was a Q+A board at the Wisner site. That's great.

 

Mac

Thanks H.C.

 

The film holders are a year old. Also, I took four shots using two holders and had identical leaks. So I don't think that's it.

 

Detective work, really.

 

I will try testing with some other lenses/boards tomorrow.

 

mac

Before anybody gets cute, I'm talking about the upper left quadrant. That U shaped bright area. I can just see it "ya, I've seen that, it's called a lousy composition and crummy technique."

 

Thanks for any help on this! It's driving me nuts.

 

mac

I recently upgraded from a Toyo 45cf to a Wisner Mohagany Technical

4x5. Took my first four shot today with the new camera. It looks

like there is a light leak of some sort on the negatives. I don't

see anything obviously wrong with the lensboard, bellows attachments,

etc.

 

Has anybody ever seen this sort of problem with a negative and if so,

any idea what caused it?

There is one good solution to the problem that you have not yet considered.

 

Selling is hard enough, and selling for a steep loss really hurts.

 

You need to buy.

 

Buy a 4x5. You'll need a light meter. While you could use your D70 for that, the N80 has film speed settings below 200. So if you are shooting 100 speed film you won't have to double your exposure or open a stop against the D70 reading.

 

Pretty thin argument, granted. But it works for me, my D100, my F100, and my 4x5.

 

And now seriously, what kind of stuff do you like to shoot? That D70 can't do everything the N80 can, or not as well. Color negative film has way better latitude, and black and white negative film even better than that. Shooting fast can be tough with my D100, bet it is with the D70 as well. Sometimes it's nice to go to a darkroom, away from the phone and the computer. No point with a D70, but with that N80 and some Tri-X you can have a nice old fashioned time away from the modern world.

 

Or just sell the thing...

 

Mac

Alan,

 

Tried getting your email address from the site but it didn't show up. Not in spam folder either. Anyhow, I took a look at that KEH page you mentioned and was about to buy the digital meter they have listed (I've been looking for a while) when I realised that would be kinda lousy since you brought it up on this thread. If you decide against it, let me know please and if it's still listed then I may go ahead and buy it.

 

Mac

I'll be interested in the responses to this thread.

 

I thought I'd point out that finding a new one can be difficult. I thought badgergraphic had them but when I ordered it turned out they were not in stock. The bigger online guys haven't had them for some time (at least when I looked).

 

I'm still making do with my F100 in spot mode, but I'd sure like to get a good spot meter one of these days without spending $600.

 

Also wonder how those Adorama spot meters are. Only a couple hundred bucks, look like the Pentax.

Thanks. I was afraid of that. At first I thought it was due to temperature while shooting, since there were a few days well below freezing. But yesterdays shots were done in comfortable conditions and still exhibited this problem.

 

I have learned my lesson. Ordering some new film now. I intend to take better care of this batch.

 

Mac

I recently started using my 4x5 after many months off. I forgot to

refrigerate a couple packs of film. They have been exposed to temps

in the 80s and down to the 50s.

 

I'm finding that carefully metered scenes don't have the shadow

detail I expected. Even bracketed exposures that would have the

shadows in zone 4 are nearly clear. The rest of the negative seems

fine to my novice eye. The highlights seem plenty dense.

 

I'm using fresh chemistry. I'm shooting FP4 at 100. This has

happened with several different lenses, so I don't think it's a

shutter malfunction.

 

I did full testing about a year ago and definitely got better shadow

detail back then.

 

Does old film lose shadow sensitivity? Or is it something else?

 

Thanks,

 

Mac