boris_chan1

"ISO 100........test f1.4 - 8 @ 1/30 - 1 sec.......focusing

spot.......person, a broom, a shiny thing, a lamp, with a

hole-punched black card.......or a big leafy plant........"

Do it and enjoy it, but don't pretend it's anything to do with

photography. Bokeh, or whatever you want to call it, simply

doesn't make or break images.

"There should be comprehensive descriptions of lenses' bokeh,

just as there are for sharpness and contrast."

Should there be? I'm not even convinced that we need to test for

sharpness and contrast anymore. Lenses from all the major

companies (not just Leica) have given an acceptable level of

performance for many decades now. Look at a Don McCullin

print from the 60s and show me where those Nikon lenses were

limiting his vision. Look at a Marc Riboud print from the 50s and

show me how the qualities of those half-century year old Leica

lenses were compromising the quality of his work.

Lenses have been good for a long time now. The fact that many

of the Leica forum heroes like Nachtwey routinely produce

enormous exhibition prints from their cheap, "plasticky"

16-35mm zooms seems to have passed many people by.

You don't agree with Fusco's spin. Fair enough, but, why do you

imagine that a "release" was signed by anybody in these

pictures? Or even that there was any dialogue between the

photographer and the families? I don't think you're

understanding either the law or how photographers work.

Gilles, whenever an EOS1 comes back from Canon following a

repair or service the number of shutter cycles is printed on the

report sheet. So you can always ask the seller if the camera has

had a recent repair/service and ask to see the report sheet.

However, I recently sold two 1ns which had way in excess of

200000 cycles and were still operating just fine. 100000 cycles

really isn't much to worry about - a camera that's been used

regularly (and may even be cosmetically messy) is probably a

better bet than a camera with just a thousand cycles that's spent

10 years sitting in a cupboard.

Why cripple the wonderful functionality of a Canon with the clunky

Leica R lenses? You'll lose way more than you'll gain.

Rene, if you want to continue these threads I don't see any

reason to stick to a strict page by page, picture by picture,

chronological format. Fairly soon you'll find yourself in a situation

where you reach blocks of pictures by individual photographers -

12 weeks of, say, Gilles Peress Rwanda images is going to

challenge everyone's stamina. Why not just give links to

individual picture stories or photographer folios on the Magnum

site? It should lead to a much better understanding of what the

photographers are trying to achieve, and also spark more

intelligent discussion.

Crying to the moderators? I guess irony is as far from your reach

as decency..........

Randy Skopar: "If you find us unbearable, you could always

request a "females only" Leica forum.........."

Or, more postively, Quiche and others could request an "idiots

only" Leica forum. If that was available then "Randy" could

continue his racist and misogynistic rants in more appreciative

company, and the rest of us wouldn't have to listen to him

howling at the moon. How about it Tony?

Randy, I feel your pain. Who couldn't be moved by your

descriptions of discrimination against the white Christian male

in modern America? If anybody doubts the very real effects of this

vile anti-male, anti-white, anti-Christian bigotry look no further

than George W Bush. We can only wonder how far this humble

genius of a man would have got in life without the madness of a

politically correct establishment thwarting his every move and

aspiration. Shame on people like Another Bob who are blind to

this blight on our society. Let's all stand shoulder to shoulder

with Randy and light that cross for Jesus.

God bless America...........

Joe, Harvey, and John, if you've got the time go to Richard's

Magnum link and click on Delahaye's Winterreise set. I'm

curious as to what you'd make of a coherent body of his work,

rather than this single picture shown out of context.

Rene, once you've given a link to an individual picture on the

Magnum site it's really easy for people to see the image in it's

wider context - all they need to do is click on the story title and it

should take them to the thumbnails from the whole set. The

single picture thing probably works fine for more mainstream

photographers like McCurry or Franklin, but when it comes to

people like Delahaye and Gilles Peress it's just not going to

make much sense. They work in such a dense and concentrated

way that you need to see the images in context. If you get the

chance check out Delahaye's book Winterreise (published by

Phaidon), it's an astonishing set of pictures taken during an

extended winter journey across Russia - it's as groundbreaking

today as Robert Frank's The Americans was in the fifties.

This isn't a particularly interesting picture in itself, but it comes

from a really strong set of pictures of the conflict in Chechnya. I'd

suggest that people check out the larger set, but, since Delahaye

has resigned from Magnum, they're not available online at the

present time. There's a real problem with these Magnum

threads, because you're taking individual pictures out of context -

it would make more sense if Rene aimed people towards the

stories that the single images come from (with the exception of

Delahaye they're all available on the Magnum site). For what it's

worth, a lot of Delahaye's peers regard him as the outstanding

conflict photgrapher of the last 15 years. He doesn't yet have the

public profile of Nachtwey, at least not in the USA, but he's

definitely pushed the bar higher.

Trevor, I've no idea why this thread has upset you so much. If

Rene had posted this out of the blue then you might have cause

for concern, but, as I'm sure you know, he's simply been moving

through the book chronologically - there's no reason to suspect

sinister motives.

".......I've spending at least 20x reading about the Hitler regime in

the last 20-25 years......."

I believe you.

"........I'm happy that people assuming others need assistance in

thinking are not in charge today......in Europe........"

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what debate is

about. For the last time, I believe in total freedom of expression.

You have the right to celebrate the life and work of Riefenstahl,

and I have the right to express revulsion at that same life and

work. If someone tried to physically stop you praising

Riefenstahl, then I'd do everything in my power to defend your

right of expression. I had hoped that my earlier reference to

David Irving would have made my attitude clear.

"Lee Miller......nice photos.. but sorry not at relevance........"

Miller is relevant as a direct contemporary of Riefenstahl. She is

also relevant as a talented woman whose reputation has

suffered as a result of misogyny - something you erroneously

implied may be behind my attitude to Riefenstahl.

Frank: ".......I have seen all her films......critical articles about

her......for more than 15 years......countless

TV-documentaries......and interviews........I doubt if Susan Sontag

has spend so much time........."

I'm more than prepared to accept that Sontag, myself, and

probably most others have spent nowhere near the amount of

time that you have studying Riefenstahl.

".......you mentioned only........Sontag.......as argument so I guess

you don't know anything more......."

I mentioned Sontag only in response to the suggestion that I

was unique in seeing anything remotely dubious about the life

and work of Riefenstahl. There's a great deal of critical analysis

other than Sontag's out there.

""Olympia".......show the rassistic scenes. If not, end of debate."

The debate is about a life's work and motivations, not a single

film.

"I will go in for *any* other artist.......when I read stupid

things......from ignorant and hypocrisy people......."

Well that wasn't very "courtly". Do you believe that everyone who

has reservations about Riefenstahl is ignorant and hypocritical?

Or just me?

"I know........strong independent woman is too much for certain

people (men)."

So the primary motivation for being wary of Riefenstahl is

misogyny? Where does that leave Sontag? If you want to

champion the cause of strong, talented women in general, let

me suggest one of Riefenstahl's contemporaries, Lee Miller

(www.leemiller.co.uk). Miller produced work of the highest

standard (I particularly recommend that you check out her

photographs of the liberation of the Buchenwald and Dachau

concentration camps) but, until recently, was dismissed as little

more than an adornment to the men (such as Man Ray) in her

life.

".......could it be that you see Nazis all around........"

It could be, but I don't think so. I'm certainly not comfortable with

the current climate in which any critic of Israel is likely to be

accused of anti-semitism. However, I also think it's naive of

people to believe that the beliefs espoused by the Nazis have

simply evaporated.

"Where do you live?"

Asia

"Man, I pray you'll never meet a Nazi in person to learn about Nazi

politeness."

If it's OK with you, I'll cheerfully go without your prayers.

"OK?"

If you don't want to clarify why the defense of Riefenstahl means

so much to you, then, yes, it will have to be OK. However, I don't

believe that it's inappropriate of me to be curious as to why the

two primary supporters of Riefenstahl in this thread have shown

no interest in any other thread pertaining to photographers rather

than equipment. I also believe that it's not inappropriate to be

curious as to why the person who ignited the thread, and then

simply stood aside during the debate, apparently also goes by

the name "Parakommando"?

Vic, because the world is "still a cesspool" we shouldn't discuss

the past? Your point still evades me.

Frank: "My way is to argument by facts........."

Sadly, despite your claim, throughout our dialogue you have

misrepresented my statements, and, seemingly, feigned

ignorance of the possible implications of the imagery produced

by Riefenstahl in her later work. I welcome debate, but I see no

reason to hide my revulsion towards those who seek to sanctify

a woman who was a key Nazi propagandist, a personal friend,

and an admirer of Hitler. I'll ask the question again: Why is this

the only non-gear related thread you've contributed to? Many

photographers have been criticized in these forums, but you've

never felt the need to defend their honour. What makes

Riefenstahl so worthy of your defense?

Frank, you need to get out there and engage with some of those

students who are studying the life and work of Riefenstahl. They

certainly haven't all come to the conclusion that she was simply

a misunderstood environmentalist and philanthropist as you

seem to imagine.

Questioning what Allan, or anybody else, has done for the

Sudanese people is an utter irrelevancy to the debate regarding

the motivations of Riefenstahl. I have a question for you though:

Why, like David Fink, is this the only non-gear related thread

you've ever shown an interest in? I'll be honest, I find your

contribution here really disturbing. Am I saying I think you are a

supporter of Riefenstahl because of Nazi sympathies? No, just

as with Riefenstahl I haven't met you in person, so I don't know.

But your demeanour while discussing a key Nazi propagandist,

and your insistence on "courtliness", certainly gives me pause

for thought and an overwhelming feeling of being soiled by your

presence.

"Does anyone care?" Yes Vic, I think people do care, including

those of us who, from time to time, show hypocrisy. I'm really not

understanding what point you're trying to make.

OK Andrew, we know what you don't like: David Alan Harvey; US

photographers with single names; Australian photographers

whose first names end with the letter e - Narelle and Trente;

Australian photographers who win the Oskar Barnack award -

Autio; Australian photographers who win the Gene Smith grant -

Parke; Bob Appleby; digital cameras; and me.

What do you like? I'm serious, I'd really like to know. Which

currently working photographers make you wag your little tail?

Vic, I'd settle for just the one crucifixion of the lovely Leni. Rather

than defending the reputation of Riefenstahl shouldn't you be

spending your time more constructively beating beggars to

death? Or have you grown out of that?

Andrew Nemeth: "What? No hysterical retorts from

the........Manhattanite Mono-name........Posse.......too busy sniffing

each other's backsides........"

Rather that than, as in your case, talking through your

backside.............