ramiro_aceves

Hello

I have just made my first try with Kodak HIE infrared film following

your directions and I can say I am very happy and lucky with the

results :-) . I used ID-11 1:1 developer for 10 minutes at 20 degrees

(this 10 minutes time is my starting point for any unknown film

without better data), 5 inversions/minute agitation. I have developed

only half roll in order to save film in the first tests(This are the

advantages of a manual old camera:-D. I used Jessops R2 filter and

old Pentax-50 camera in manual mode of course.

I exposed 1/125 sec and f11 in sunny day with +2 to - 1 stops

bracketing. I found the best exposure at 1/125 secs f11. Contrast

seems to be right with my diffusion enlarger and Ilfospeed grade2

paper. I have to tell you only some observations:

1- I have got unven density areas near the film holes as you told me,

this uneven areas affect the final image, so I would like to

eliminate them. Is a five inversions/minute agitation too violent?

Should I reduce agitation, for example to two inversions/minute, will

be development time affected too much?.. I will retest again, no

problem.

2- The missing antihalation lyer is noticeable near the brighter

parts of the image.

3- The pictures have a nice "dream look" , I am happy, but, do you

think it worths buying a more expensive opaque filter to get more

dramatic feeling?

4- grain is big and sharp but I like it. Beautifull.

5- I got good shadow detail although I thought I was going to get no

details in zones illuminated by sky blue light. Will shadow detail be

worse with the opaque filter?

I have attached tree images. One shows the same "cityscape" I see

from my window taken with TURA-P150 and with Kodak HIE to see the

diference.

The other picture is a landscape in wich you can see the uneven

developed film holes on the top. It is a pitty that the tree on the

left does not have leaves now in wonter, but I will wait for spring

to test.

Thank you all for your help.

Hi B/W friends.

As I promised, I send you my results about using 1 minute water stop

bath instead 3 minutes acid stop bath for development of TURA P150 at

EI 70 in Rodinal 1:50 for 11 minutes. I can NOT see any diference in

grain pattern between them. I have compared same density frames to

avoid diference in grain caused by exposure diferences. So I will

use the water bath from now with,although grain is the same here, it

is cheaper and avoids pinholes.

I am planning a detailed grain test among Rodinal 1:25, 1:50 and

1:100

to see the real effect of dilution in acutance, resolution and grain.

I am trying to get the same contrast index in all dilutions to make

good comparisons. Also I need to shoot the same target and avoid any

camera shake to make a good test.

I will keep you informed. Any ideas will be welcome.

Ramiro.

Hello friends.

A friend of mine and I have just bought our first roll of kodak HIE

infrared film and before using it I need to ask you some questions

(expensive film....:-) ). I am using a Jessops red (R2) filter with

8.0 exposure factor (3 stops). My friend is using a opaque filter, I

do not know the filter type and exposure factor but I will know

tomorrow when I speak to him....

Can I we do the standard EI and development time tests or I miss

something?. I had planned measuring a white card in the sunlight,

apply the exposure factor and do the traditional Zone I and Zone VIII

tests. Can I do it, or I should forget it and take some real pictures

in sunshine days and adjust EI and development time acording to the

results?

Thanks.

Hello Lex and friends

I am using that Spanish tank ( I am Spanish too...:-), I used a Jobo tank until it had too much chemistry leakage ) and I always use plenty of developer to avoid that problem. The first time I used this tank I got a partialy developed negative in the edges. But another bad experience with that tank is that, when using only one reel, the reel slides up on the spindle and goes out of the developer. I have fixed that problem adding a "ring" to the spindle using an Ilford FP4 box top with a big hole.

Have this in mind or one day you can end with a half developed negative as it happened to me. The reel is not tight with the spindle and can "float".

Sorry for my poor english.

Many thanks to all for your valuable responses.

Mark, sorry, I wanted to say "dark spots" in the print, so they are holes in the negative. I have just exposed this weekend another Tura P-150 35mm roll. I will develop it as soon as possible this week, this time with the water stop bath instead of acid bath. I use to use vinager with the following dilution for films and papers stop bath, as I read in a book: 25ml of vinager in 1000 ml water. I do not know if it is right.

I will tell you If there is a noticeable diference.

As I use 11 minutes development I supose that there will not be any change in development time, as I read from your posts in the forum.

As Mark recomended to me some time ago, I controll now also the stop bath and fixer temperature at 20 C (+-1 degree)

Thank you!!

Thanks Mark and Lex, that could explain the increasing grain. I am going to try the water bath instead acid bath and see what happens. How much time do you recomend for the water bath?

I have also noted some dark spots in two frames, but not sure if they are the pinholes you mentioned before or handling marks.

I will tell you the results.

Thanks.

Hello B/W friends

Yesterday, I made a mistake when I developed Tura P150 at EI 70 for

11 minutes in Rodinal 1:50 as usual. I let the film stay in the stop

bath for 3 minutes by distraction ( I thought I was fixing). I thing

that grain is a bit bigger, but not sure if this can be the cause. My

5x7 prints exhibit the same grain size than 9.5x12 previous

enlargements.

Can grain be afected by longer stop bath?

Thank you.

I am not an experienced shooter, but I have been one year playing with films and developers seriously, and printing density curves graphs. I have read Ansel´s book and I think is the right book, as he was the inventor of the zone system. Once you read the book, you will have a good understanding of how a film works, and you will have your own thinking and you will be able to apply your own Zone System.

I started in B&W 15 years ago when I was 17, and I did not really know how things work, I developed my films in the first found developer in the shop, for the time recomended in the package.Results were good for me in that time, but when I have seen the negatives 15 years after, it make me laugh. Many of them were underexposed, and really overdeveloped. Development was for me something magic, and I did not understand the efects of temperature, time, etc..

After some years of taking no photos (other hobbies, amateur radio) I started again, but I wanted to improve my understanding. Luckily, Internet was a new great tool. I downloaded all Kodak and Ilford datasheets from their WEBs, and studied them carefully. Soon I notice that when a manufacturer propsed a development time for a film in a developer, The manufacturer of the developer said a different time for that film. That made me think and I wanted to learn more.

I started reading books about sensitometry and I built my own densitometer, it made me learn many things about how films reacts to light and development. It is a very simple thing when you have learnt it, but it is confusing when you do not have your mind clear. Nothing magic! The film curve will say you precisely how film works. No more unacurate ambigous words!("contrasty", "tonality", "blocked highligts", creamy highlights) The graph is all. Many people say that "this film has got blocked highlights" in a developer and abandon it when what they should do is reducing development time. Other people say, "that film do not render shadow detail" and abandon it or switch to anoher developer when they should reduce the Exposure Index.

I think that for 35 mm, the zone system can not be used at its full extent, but it usefull to "expose for the shadows" and ensure shadow detail. Then, you let the highlighs to fall where they want. Then with variable contrast paper, you can adjust after development.

The most important thing is to make a film test to adjust the exposure index and Normal development time that will worl for you and your equipment. Once you have the correct EI, you will be sure you will have shadow detail. You also can test the N+1 time. You can use the N time for normal full range scenes in wich there is white in the sun and black in the shadow. Or you can use N+1 if you are taking flash photos or overcast days. These are simplifications of the zone system that work with variable contrast paper. Once you know how it works you can make your own methods.

With variable contrast paper you can fix a negative with too much contast because modern films uses to have a long curve and records details in very high zones (X, XI or XII)(we know that there will be a sharpenss decrease and grain increase). The issue that is imposible to fix are underexposed negatives without shadow detail, with "holes in the shadows".

This is how I work now, If I am going to shoot pictures in the sun and include shadows, I use N time. If it is an overcast day , N+1 will work.

If you want to practice real Zone System, you can have several camera bodies for N-1, N and N+1, or even cheaper, load film cartridges with only 3 or 4 shoots. In my opinion, it is a bit overcomplicated.

Good luck, and keep in mind that you do not need a densitometer to adjust your film!

Your paper is enough!

Enjoy!

Hello,

During the week we have been talking about Rodinal aging. I thought

that when Rodinal turned dark it mantained its strenght.

I have run today an experiment with Delta 100 at EI70. Some days

before , I developed it in Rodinal 1:50 for 9 minutes, using a bottle

opened 4 months ago, with purple Rodinal that contained one fifth of

125ml. I estimated a bit high in contrast, so today I have developed

for 8 minutes using a fresh NEW 125ml bottle, with Rodinal almost

clear.

Well, the experiment showed that both curves are very close to

eachother. So, old rodinal at 9 minutes equals to new Rodinal for 8

minutes in this test.

From now, I will use marbles now with Rodinal bottle also!

Hope this helps.

Yesterday I run my first test with HP5+ at EI 280 in Rodinal 1:50 for 10 minutes, 20 ºC , 5 inversions /minute and it passed Zone VIII test ok in Ilford RC grade 2 paper. It is incredible because I choose that time and EI by feeling.......

The densities are:

Zone0=0.025, ZoneI=0.095, ZoneII=0.2, ZoneIII=0.345, Zone IV=0.475, ZoneV=0.615, ZoneVI=0.735, ZoneVII=0.925, ZoneVIII=1.135, Zone IX=1.335, ZoneX=1.585.

Grain is noticeable but acutance is very good.

Hello friends.

I do not know about D-76, but I had the increasing strenght problem with ID-11 (some people think D-76 and ID-11 are very close). I develop with all variables well controlled and I have measured carefully densities and I got a very big increasing in contrast. First time I notice it, I was developing HP5+ in ID-11 1:1 for 10,5 minutes, and the results where as if I used 12 minutes. Second time was with 100 Tmax, and got another tremendous contrast increase. I posted some e.mails on this forum with a graph, but I can not find them now. This made me think, and in both cases I was using the last 250ml of a litre bottle, 15 days after mixing the powder!. After that, I am searching for glass bottles to improve the developer storage. I stored the 1 liter stock solution in a adjustable plastic bottle, but when the amount of developer is 250 ml, the last batch I use, the bottle top can not be lowered anymore and half the bottle is air. I used tap water, I do not knot if that could make things even worse.

After this bad experience, I am searching for 250ml glass bottles, and I will fill to the top with marbles. As I mix always ID11 at 1:1 dilution, I use 500ml of solution into the tank. I prevent developer exhaustion and avoid diferences if I use a 36 or 24 frames roll.

It could be a good idea buying a PH-meter, but I do not know if it is expensive.

Hope this helps and sorry for my english, It is difficult for me to explain this things.

Hello Peter.

I see that we get similar results using the same 13 minutes time!.

I use a difusion enlarger and I found that the numbers given by Ansel are too high for me. Perhaps modern grade 2 papers have less exposure range than Ansel`s, .....I do not know, but the best is to test with your paper and forget the numbers. You must create your own numbers. Once you have the numbers for you, you can use the densitometer to do a quick check. I always shoot three frames at the begining of each roll: ZoneI, ZoneVIII and B&F, in order to have a a reference to see if all things are under controll.

In my opinion, I think you can use the densitometer to measure the Zone I, as it is faster than testing with the paper, and once you get the 0.1 density, then you can test development time with the paper.It is important not being obsesed with 0.1 number, I have tested that a 0.8 density over base and fog is enough for giving a different shade from black into the paper. Once you have tested many films, you can estimate zone I density visually, watching trough the negative over a light table . I have found that when Zone 0 frame is almost the same density than base and fog,just a slight tone, Zone I is near the right value.

Acording to the data I have, I would do the next test for 8 minutes at EI250 and check the zone I density. If it is on the 0.08-0.12 range, you can test development time. If not, change EI acordingly and retest.

The zone VIII test is very easy:

Use fresh paper developer, controll temperature and agitation well. Place the enlarger head at medium height, and choose the lens aperture you use to work with. Place the Base & Fog frame on the negative carrier and focus. Now, make 1 or two second interval exposures on the paper. I use to turn on the enlarger light and put a black paper over the photographic paper and move it at 2 seconds intervals. Develop the strip and use a hair drier( do not evaluate the print until it is dry). Choose the minimum time that turns the paper full black, and use this time for the Zone VIII and Zone I tests.

Now the Zone VIII test. Put the Zone VIII frame on the enlarger, put a piece of paper on the enlarger board and cover half the paper with a thick paper, and expose it under the time found before. I cover half of the paper to have a true white to easy compare with the zone VIII. Develop and dry as before. Watch the test frame on good light. If you can see a slight shade of grey you have the ZOne VIII test ok. If there is no diference from white, then it meens that your development time is too long. If the shade of grey is more than a slight tone, your develpment time is to short and you have to increase it. That´s all!

When you have it please read you densities and tell us the results. I am curious about that.

Only a recomendation: Use always fresh ID-11 and store the stock solution in glass bottles with no air inside (use marbles to avoid air). I have experienced an increasing developer activity as long as developer bottle gets air. I have noticed that increasing strenght in storage periods as short as 15 days in half filled bottles!!) You can get mad and think you made something wrong in the tests if you forget that!!

Good luck.

Thank you friends:

I have got several wine green 1 litre bottles at home. Only a question. Does the cork breath oxigen?

Thank you.

It should work. I am using Tura P150 film with expiration date January 2002 and I am getting very good results with Rodinal 1:50 for 11 minutes. All you need Is divide one of the rolls in three pieces and make some EI and contrast tests. When you get the desired results, you can asume the rest of the rolls will be in similar condition.

I got this expirated film at 1 euro each. I bought it to experiment and learn the Zone System, but at the end I like the results as if it was a new film.

First, I agree with Mark, the paper test is the best.

I tell you some data:

I seems like you are developing too much. Please, tell me what time and agitation you use. I have some tests here with HP5+ and ID11 1:1, 20C, 5 inversions/ minute. I would reduce around 15-20%, but sure you will have to reduce EI.

Here: 13 minutes resulted EI400 Zone I =0.12, Zone VIII=1.51

10.5 minutes EI280, Zone I =0.11, ZOne VIII= 1.35

8min EI 200, ZoneI = 0.135, Zone VIII= 1.18

I hope this helps.

Hello wise men:

As I told in previous posts, I found that ID-11 developer gets

stronger as it oxidice with air, and I had no consistent results

when I use the last 250 ml of the 1 litre stock solution, I mean,

after being exposed to air( it is incredible but 15 days are enough

to have not consistency in developing). You told me that D-76/ID-11

sufered this fenomen( thank you) .

I am trying to find suitable bottles that avoid air. I have read many

posts in wich you recomend dark glass bottles. Before trying to find

glass bottles (I think they are dangerous if broken), I want to make

two questions:

1- How can I know if a plastic bottles breathes air? . Could I use

COKE (Coca Cola) plastic 500ml bottles?. Can I asume that If they are

designed not to pass CO2, will they be suitable for storing

developer, If I store it in a dark place?

2- Does tap water cause only inconsistence in developer strenght doue

to PH diferences or It causes also quicker developer degradation?

I am very happy with Rodinal as I could not find any of this problems

as it turns dark. I get very consistent results with it.

Many thanks.( sorry for my poor english)

Hello B&W fans

I am starting to play with filters and I have just receive an HOYA

ORANGE (G) filter from my photo dealer, but there is not spectral

response data inside the box. Could you tell me where can I find the

data of this filter or what is its Kodak equivalent?. I have searched

in the web for HOYA filters and I can not get the spectral response

datasheet.

Watching trough the filter I can see clearly that it darkens the

violets and blues, leaving greens, yellows and reds unaffected. I

thought an orange filter would darken also the greens, but this is

not the case. I have some Pentax filters spectral response data and

it should correspond more exactly to a dark yelow (Y2 (Y48) in Pentax

nomenclature).

Also, if I watch my monitor in Photoshop trough the filter, I can

test where the filter starts to "cut the waveleghts". I do not know

if this tests I have done are reliable or not.

Any information will be valuable for me.

Thanks

I do not trust anymore in any published time, since I had the same problem you had with Rodinal. I had tremendous high contrast and grain.

Good luck now and enjoy!

For Kevin:

Thank you very much for your response, it is exactly what I was asking for. With 6.5 minutes at 20C for 100TMAX ID11 1:1 dilution, I get a very very slight gray at zone VIII. I think I have it now.

Thank you, your posts always have been very valuable for me.

For Lex Jenkins: Many thanks for encouraging me. I like everything that is related to the technical aspect of everything, but now that I have it understood, I want to start making pictures, not test frames... :-)

Also many thanks for Philip Sweeney for his interesting post.

Thank you to Chris Waller also.

I have read many times "The Negative", Ansels makes a very detailed explanation on zones, but He does not explain how to match to the paper. That is the thing I do not like about Adams Book, he only give us densitometric data for zone VIII and not for zone IX, I do not know why he bases on densitometric data instead of matching experimentaly the negative to the paper.....

It is a pity not being able to ask him now....

Hello,

I have seen different Zone System literature in wich it is said that

you have to do the development time test in order to get a very

slight shade of gray different from white with the Zone VIII frame.

Other literature sais that it must be done with zone IX. If you do

it with zone VIII, then zone IX does not exist anymore (paper base)

and zone VIII will not have any texture.

Other web page says that you have to print a ZONE 1.5 and zone 8.5 at

the same time in the enlarger to get a slight shade of grey different

from black and a slight shade of gray different from white.

So, the zone VIII test and the ZONEs (1.5 to 8.5) test implies 7 stop

range, while zone IX test implies 8 zones.

Perhaps the zone 1.5 to 8.5 test is better adjusted to the 7 stops

average scene luminance with zone V in the middle.

What do you think? The zone IX is too much range for me.

Thank you.

Contrast is a function of development time, try a 30% reduction and see what happens. In two or three tries you will be in the ballpark.

Good luck.

For Bob Thompson:

Thanks, I only wanted to know if someone has ended in the same short times like me. Any 100TMAX densitometry developed in ID11 1:1 will be welcome.

Thank you, I think that using LEDs as light sources is a great idea! Avoiding infrared in the light source is better than trying ti cut-off in the sensor!...

I have been in the electronic shop today and they only have green, red and yelow LEDs, not white , so, what would you use for my black and white densitometer?

I think I should change to photodiodes and operational amplifiers to have more sensititivy, the photo resistor is not sensitive enough for that little light source. I have to experiment more, your idea has opened my mind!!

Thank you.Sorry if my english is not understandable.

Hello , I have not tried that film, but when I developed FP4+ in Rodinal for 9 minutes at 1:25 dilution, as suggested in Rodinal box, the results were very contrasty and grainy. I use difussion enlarger. I think Agfa recomends too long times. 6 minutes was much better. Try yourself, is is the only way to have success. Control temperature well and have standard agitation procedures. I prefer the 1:50 or 1:100 dilutions, you have longer times to improve control and get uniformity in the results.

Hope this helps.