chip l.

Chris, your images remind me of a co-worker and his son. They were out one day and he

mentioned to his son that there was a backhoe machine. His son corrected him, that it was

front end loader with a roll of the eyes. LOL....

It is very possible that Canon (or others) will take and make it harder to "add" functions to

the "newer" products. It will all depend on the cost of rewriting the firmware in order to

prevent "hackware". Apple has decided that it is not worth the cost. And the percentage of

300D users that did the hack is probably very small over all.

In cases like this, it helps knowing what country you are coming from.

Chip

Have to laugh. I helped out at our stores Leica Day recently. I was corrected more than

once when I mentioned my own M6TTL's as just as an "M6".

I think that it is a positive. We need a standard that can be used for the future. Now if we

can have the same standard for storage.

Maybe i am biased, but the Tamron 28-70 f/2.8 and the Tamron 90mm f/2.5 (?) are great

choices IMO.

Jeff Conrad,

Attended an event at the MCI Center recently. They had a no "professional camera" rule

posted on the door. At least they described it further meaning no interchangeable lens

cameras allowed.

Firs there should be a lot of Nikon N55/75, Canon Rebel, and many others that will be

happy to know that they are now "professionals". And then there are those like Michael

Reichmann at Luminous Landscapes that have done wonders with cameras like the Minolta

A2 and Sony F828.

Thought that was what I said Bob. Along with giving some background to help others

understand the "science" behind it.

Thanks for adding a couple points.

Kelly, I know that. But there are cases (Amber Hagerman) that helped create the AMBER

Alert system. And this is used regardless of whom abducts a child. The point I guess I was

trying to make was one of small events having big changes in the laws, rules, and

attitudes.

What seems to be missing from this discussion by both sides is how do we balance the

needs/desires of people in the mall now being promoted as the new "town square"? For

those that say there is an expectation of privacy, what about security cameras that seem to

be every where in a shop or mall?

In the thread I mentioned, it appears that the parking lot of the mall had be legally

considered "public property", though my take was the inside was considered "private

property".

Then we have the issue of proper notice. It has been a while since I have been to a mall.

But my thinking is that if the "rules" are not clearly posted, and there is no clear "law" on

the books as to what can and can not be done (ie, theft is against the law, as is "peeping-

tom" photos) that is hard to detain an individual that is willingly leaving the property. An

arrest can be made for "trespass" if you choose not to leave. That is not the case with this

situation. James was stopped, questioned, rules explained; and was on his way out. All

perfectly legal IMO. The second stop and detention is where the mall crossed the line.

As with the post by Calico, we have a situation growing in some places of "profiling". Look

or act in certain way, and you risk being hassled or detained. What i hear from some of the

posts here is, "Well, this has never happened to me. You must have given them a reason.

Any how it was private property.".

I would be interested in knowing if this mall has events (halloween contest, car shows, or

such) that people take pictures of the participants and productions? Are pictures taken

during these events? If so, does security stop them?

I keep hearing that malls are "private" property. This is a matter of local and state law.

Blanket statements do not help. The private/public status of malls is still being fought

many times over in the courts.

For an example see this thread:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=009yEb

For James B., I would suggest that the DA is the best first option. Also going to most

libraries, they have the legal text for their states in most cases. It takes work, but it shows

how serious you are about the law (Did this when a friends car was repo'd with my

belongings in the trunk. The dealer refused to release my belongs, even though I could

prove they were mine. Did the research, sent a letter and got my belongings back. )

James B. - Back in the 80's the malls in the DFW area had problems with unescorted

minors in the Malls. Some tried banning unescorted minors. Some did "shadow patrols" to

make unescorted minors so uncomfortable, that they would just leave. It may seeem that

things have not changed out there.

Christopher Colley - I thought that there was a recent SOCTUS ruling that said that the

police do have the right to demand an ID.

Bob Atkins - On face value you are right. But the the situation is different by locality. Some

(Ca. as an example) have stated that certain parts of a mall are actually public property. I

remember reading one courts opinion that the mall has replaced the town square. And the

malls entice the public with much more than just shopping (car shows, pet shows, and

other performances). And that rules like laws need to applied equally. In this case the mall

allowed pictures at these events, but not outside of those events. The court did say that

stores themselves were "private property" even though they were in the mall. The point is

that with this subject it is impossible to have any blanket agreement as the rights of taking

pictures in a mall.

Kelly Flanigan - It is not just the post-911 world that has caused this. It is the abduction

of children, "up-the-skirt", and other situations that has caused a knee jerk reaction. For if

a photo could be proven been taken at a particular mall, that mall could face a lawsuit.

Kevin Mendenhall - I am not a proponent of filing a lawsuit at the drop of the hat. Though

in this case if checking with the DA that the mall and guard had detained the kid illegally,

they should request the DA file a case. If the DA won't, then the only recourse is to file a

private lawsuit. For if the mall did break the law and are not held accountable, they will

repeat it. Sometimes it takes one person to make a difference (Rosa Parks comes to mind,

though this case IMo does not raise to that level of course).

The Tamron is a good lens. Shot an assignment with one on loan. The only thing that I

spoiled on is the motors for AF being built into the lenses. I would say that if you are

happy with the way the Tamron focuses, then it is a buy.

For many people the 6mp APS-C sensor can give great prints, even large ones. So the 4/

3's from Oly will be able to so the same, because if you "crop" a 35mm/APS-C image to a

8x10 format you have effectively reduced the 6mp sensor to 5mp.

In many ways we need to look at this as an issue of the RF vs. the SLR. there are enough of

us that see RF as having advantages over the SlR. As there are of the SLR over the RF.

If there are any differences between the original poster and his fellow student it may have

to due with optics. Been involved with classes in recent years. Those of us that "scored"

higher were for our skill, and in some cases for the "same" shots - shot with a zoom and

those that were shoot with a prime.

Meaning that if you have a shot with a lens that does not have contrast or sharpness - it

may be hard to gain that in the darkroom. On the flip side you can have some oe that is

skilled with PS and come up with something that you could only dream of in the darkroom.

There is always two sides to a coin.

Bill, just an FYI - I saw a couple, one with a "Vote or Die" shirt and the other with a a

"kerry" (I believe). The "Vote or Die" was allowed in. The other was not.

In the Herndon/Fairfax area it was difficult to photograph. Only because of the "major"

activity being moved into the school building, rather than on the outside of the building. I

went to a couple of schools nearby, and encountered the same changes.

All you have to remember is which film you have any back that you attach. That is the only

gripe I had on the ERTsi system....

Based on some of the comments, what was so wrong about comparing it to those that on

Leica Forum that talk about silver and black bodies?

It does show that there are people that the color of teh body matters both for

"photographic" and for "looks".

For some, they would know that I subscribe to "tools" for a purpose. this whole silver vs.

black body seems to rank with the Leica people IMO.

In some ways you describe what many of of hit upon. I live in the DC area. So much is

difficult to photograph (despite some comments to the otherwise). Some of my haunts

from 20+ years ago are now gone. Even some that 10 years ago, are now looking like

Arlington or the MCI area of DC.

In some ways I look at some of my photography to be for the "generations"; rather than

the here and now. I am not sure how HCB and others from his generation looked upon

their "their" world.

Having been down there your shots are very nice indeed.

I try to capture more of the "still lifes" than the "actors" myself. But that is me....

Al, to be honest I think the issue with Rollei and the their RF was that it was a total rip off

of the Bessa series, The ZI series may have legs since the body has "enhancements" over

the R series. Add to that the "new" ZI lenses have their design based on a digital future,

than the CV lenses that seem to be built for film. And the wider Leica lenses that are a

mix.

After this thread that I posted elsewhere ;

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041101/ts_alt_afp/

us_vote_media_violence

I thought twice about my initial thoughts going out to "record" the the events of today....