iván

. . . what for, Al . . .?

-Iván

Hi, all:

I think this might well be the most interesting thread in the site since I joined . . . though the far it has drifted from its original content.

I have really enjoyed Rob's well thought and best written arguments the same as most of the others'. . .only that I already went through this during my university years (the mythical 60's) here at my alma mater Concepción University, in Chile. Here is where the most radical left wing chilean movements were born. Right during my student time. And many times I argued at students assemblies regarding these same subjects since I was an extremely extrange case in those days: I was one of the very few student representatives elected with no political party support, just by students who thought that rightists and leftists (no intermediate position is possible after things get tough enough, you be sure) alike were damaging our political life trying to push the political game beyond the limits of feasibility . . .which they finally succeded at: the democratic system was lost in Chile for close to 20 years.

Now, since I already went through all the stages in practice, I'll risk to take the short way and, based on actual experience, tell where this discourse ends up: after the concept that people belong in two "classes" has been stablished firmly enough, the realization that the wide and deep social, educational and economical differences will prevent the "havenots" from ever getting political power enough to really start changing things in order to improve their share of the wealth is the next obvious logical step, and the conciousness grows up that the only way to change things is the armed way.

At the same time that the "haves" realize that the only way to preserve the democratic order and the prevalence of the christian-occidental values is the armed way, too. What a coincidence . . .!

Some say (and I do so) that education is the real (maybe the only) way out from poverty. The trick is that the leftists say (and I think it's mainly true) that education contains the very seed of the regime perpetuation because it's been designed within the system and promote the values that support it. Can you see why the armed way is said to be the only one . . .?: out of hopelessness.

My point is that education is NOT what the system gives us. That is training only. Education is what you find out about the world you live in, through your own effort and thinking, based on the values your family passed along to you, after you processed that legacy through your own personal filter as an intellectually grown up individual. But (and this is a huge "BUT") that is not an easy excercise and it will take years . . . maybe all of the ones you are entittled to. Furthermore, it can only start after you became able to take control of your intelectual liberty, the hardest one to gain and the most difficult one to step in (see Erich Fromm's "Fear of Liberty", an extremely lucid and enlighting study on this subject).

Ufff. . . this has went far beyond I planned. Sorry . . .

Final statement: lets trust the human person to be able to be by her/himself, not as a social item at either side of the property of the production media. And lets promote education over plain cultural training.

At present, I own the production media where I work. And this is my own creation; I haven't inherited anything but my education. But still I think (and far more important, I act - or try hard to ) the way I propose: as been equal to my employees in my basic needs and human characteristics and I share with them the limited wealth our effort gets us in the more equitative proportion the subsistence of our office can afford. Delicate excercise nowadays, for sure.

And this is not personal propaganda. I tell this only to make clear that making substance out of clever statements coined during the french students revolution is far more difficult than just citing them. Though they are certainly true, IMHO.

If you happen to have read this long, please excuse the lenght. I think it's easy to see why this subject is so important for me.

In my favor I have two photos posted in this thread, though certainly not at Salgado's level (just a lousy joke, of course . . .) certainly in connection with my own thinking.

Enjoy your weekend, friends. Best regards

-Iván

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Regarding the substantial and most interesting ideological debate: here in Chile and over my life time we have gone almost all over the ideological spectrum: from extreme right to extreme left through demochristians and the local version of socialdemocrats too and my personal conclusion is not as optimistic as I'd like but haven't got arguments to believe otherwise. After so much seeing, expecting and suffering I think that ideologies are absolutely out of practical consideration mostly all over the World today, except for the presently vastly dominant one: individual and corporate ambition.

Lets hope that will change in time . . . this forum (or some special people in this forum, perhaps)gives me some hope some times. Others, it sends me into a deeper depresion.

Regards, friends.

-Iván<div></div>

Sorry, Patrick. I got green daisies here. I assume it's a case of colour handling by monitors. In fact, if your original is the way you say, this a good example that scanning and posting do little justice to our pics . . .

Regards, Patrick

-Iván

Ray:

I live in Chile. We are said to be the ones who are presently doing better in the whole South America. And still your vision is grossly over optimistic. I'm afraid it corresponds to an over simplified model easy to reach at if you are not close enough to the real thing. I'd be happy if things were that clear . . .!

But,please believe me, they are far from that. Sorry . . .

-Iván

Moments in memory go away with us. Photos tend to last somewhat longer . . .

And though I tried real hard I couldn't share what you saw, based on what you told us here. Because you really were willing to tell us, didn't you ?

And then again,if some shots are best left unmade why should we tell others about them . . .?

Sorry if this prevents you from feeling better, BVA.

-Iván

Welcome, Michael !

I'd completely adhere to Andrew's opinion if it were not by the fact that it is exactly what I have done: try mostly everything. And I have actually had lots of fun in the process BUT I have expent much more money and a hughe (for me) amount of money along half my life to get to my present conclusions than I had if I only knew this:

a.- In order to learn what one is actually able to do in order to improve one's photography in a reasonable lenght of time, the best way is to shoot slides: you don't have to go through the pain of film development and you quickly get back from the corner lab right what you did at a reasonable price.

b.- For B&W work there is Agfa's SCALA film: it will give you what I only can dream about: B&W slides. Getting your job processed could be a little more difficult and time consuming because Scala is not handled in most corner labs since the process is a special one but you have far more opportunities in the States than I have in Chile (the nearest place to have my slides processed is in Argentina !!)

c.- Chromogenic films (Ilford's XP2 S is my favourite) allow you to have your pictures developed at the corner lab at a lower price that you usually get for colour prints (you need your pics to be developed only, not printed) and you can do the rest of your B&W work at home in a "dry dark room". That's what I do at present, except that I use a wet lab because my table top scanner doesn't handle film. And I prefer the web lab anyhow . . .

Regards, Michael. You have a hard job in front in order to analyze your options, I wish you the best at it !

-Iván

. . . one more vote to support Andrew's opinion ! I own a 35/50/90/135 mm set and seldom use the 35 and 135 but miss a 28mm lens. After all, wide is meant to be wide, right ?

Best of luck, Samuel

-Iván

Thankyou, gentlemen !

I agree on the relatively low visual impact of this photo. In fact I considered posting it many times before I did. But I like it mainly because I have kind of a personal challenge: to make the best I can in B&W with subjects traditionaly considered colour photography items. Perhaps the most common ones are sunsets and flowers. And though in this particular occasion the results are not to make me famous, it is a decent attempt. IMHO, at least.

I'd like the legs of the lonely runner to be seen against the bright sea ... but he was running in a direction that would soon bring him inside the dark area so that I had to shoot right away and make the best I could or forget about it completely. So I run to the right spot to shoot, and shot.

Regarding Johann's Photo Shop help: I have to thank the time you took with my photo. I feel honored. However when a photo needs so much work in Photo Shop the results tend to make it look kind of soft, I think. I couldn't really go any further in this explanation but I assume that the software treatment takes away some numerous little graphic items that were validly present in the original, along with the defects like dust and scratches. Just an assumption. In this case I tend to feel that the sea (which was not too alive in the original because of the light angle at that moment) is definetely dead after P.S treatment. I'll have to increase my efforts to make photos able to succesfully resist additional digital treatment and I certainly welcome your comments. Oh, something else: mine are 50's lenses without any coating, I think, and direct light is hard to handle with them.

Thanks again. Best regards to you all and I hope to "see" you soon once more . . .

-Iván

Sorry I uploaded a version that didn't go through the much necessary Polaroid Dust and Scratch Remover that was advised to me in this site and which has been a great help . . . when I remember which files are which.

I owe you one. . .

-Iván

Welcome, Charles !

Be aware that there is a certain number of us here who speak M3 instead of just Leica. I tend to be in that group maybe only 99.9999 % of the time but I expect to improve in the foreseeable future.

And there is also a certain reduced group of us who certainly couldn't be blamed of being of any help. But that is the way we are so that lets go to the important issues: relax and post photos; Leica photos, of course; it would be extremely embarrasing to choose the Bronica one ... in the extrange and highly improbable event that some of us could make any mistake, let that particular one alone!

Regards, Charles !

-Iván<div></div>

All opinions welcome, gentlemen.

Regards

-Iván<div></div>

Ditto Patrick's opinion. . . wholeheartful congrats, Mike !

-Iván

Hi, Marc:

Thanks for posting your images.

At first sight I found them well done, with a good (though conventional)treatment of colour but irrelevant in the same extent that they belonged to a much explored way of painting all over the World since it was created. I one word, I thought yours were "beautiful" images with an artistic value proportional and limited to the beauty of the pictures. And I didn't really understand why they should be classified as either art OR photography as if they couldn't belong in both categories at the same time. And I was also surprised by the discussion about them. In MHO these beautiful images were not worth so much noise.

And then you said "The common elements of Cubism and Photography are "time and space ( I.e.; place /percpective)." So photography felt like a natural medium to use for cubist work. In fact, it seemed to me to be more of a natural medium than did painting just for that reason. Recording images at different times from different perspectives alters our perception of time and space. So, it follows that, both being a strong aspect of photography, why not try it? " and everything became clear for me: the most lucid explanation came the logical way, right from the author. In that context, I still like the images but don't consider them real art expresions but very good graphical constructions based on a clever interpretation of a normally hermetic way of artistic expression. Which I honestly thank since it is the most clear and meaningful explanation I ever saw.

Thanks again, Marc, and best regards !

-Iván

Hi, Bob:

I'd like to congratulate you for the exhibition and thank you for your kind invitation to go have a look. But, please, remember that you are talking to people all over the World, here. I'm sorry I won't be able to attend your exhibition but be sure that I(and probably many other people too) will appreciate to see your work if only you were kind enough to post it . . . will you ?

Congrats again, Bob, and best regards

-Iván

Paul:

Are you taking B&W photos on a colour roll . . .? I used to do so too until I realized that my preferred stuff (and vision, perhaps ?) is B&W ;-)

I mostly agree with Lutz's comment: the horizon line centered on the vertical axis of the photo and the almost centered boat on the horizontal one make the image somewhat static. Just a thought: could some additional meaning have been added like trying a vertical framing in order to highlight the little size of the man and boat in the middle of the open nature? I certainly know it is kind of a cliché but sometimes "the dumb's guy photo" is a solid decision.

But you were the one in front of the image and behind your camera at the moment you fired the shutter, hence the best entittled to make the decisions, right ?

Thanks for sharing, Paul, and best regards !

-Iván

James and Doug:

Would you mind having a look at <a href="http://www.apogeephoto.com/bimonthly_contest.shtml">this</a> . . .?

Lutz: Thanks for your kind comment. This is something surprising: ALL you said about composition on this photo was intentional and aimed to get from the viewer EXACTLY the reaction you describe so I felt rather pleased with myself after reading your posting. Whether it was right to do so is another subject: I think that a better balanced composition was possible indeed, but I thought it would have been boring. A comparison shot could be helpful, but I didn't shoot but the photo I posted.

The exposure issue is something different: because of the storm there were too many little things all over the beach and I assumed they would be distracting items on the photo so I decided to bet on a low key exposure in an attempt to throw them mostly into the shadows. And I didn't want to get a washed out sky because it was a strong component of my composition, with the diagonal light line and the clouds, which reinforced my former decision. Only that I was a little too succesful at it, I guess. BTW, Lutz: the lens in this enlarger is right what one needs in order to make justice to the 50mm Cron ! !

Thanks, gentlemen, for taking your time to make me know your comments.

Best regards

-Iván

Hi, Grant:

I have tried shooting from below waist level in public places with similar results and, in my case at least, I've found the results not worth posting: it makes for a hardly controllable process and, consequently, the results are beyond control, too. Sometimes, mainly out of chance I think, one gets interesting images specially because of the odd angle of view, but then again, in my experience it is only by chance. I still continue doing it when I think the odds are favourable enough but, in average, my results are as already described.

On the other hand I just loved "Girlcine" and "Exit". I specially liked the old fashioned look you were able to get and the composition in both images. IMHO they are in a different and higher category than the rest. Just a matter of tastes, perhaps . . .?

But thanks for sharing, Grant. Best regards

-Iván

Hi, James:

Ollie said it all.

Congrats !

-Iván

Hi, Boon:

Good shot ! The expressions of the boy with the ball and the one at the right upper part of the frame saved the day.

Congratulations and best regards, Boon

-Iván

From my last vacation day in Pucón.

Comments / critique welcome, as usual.

Regards, friends

-Iván<div></div>

Hi, Marc:

One more vote for the Young Bride (exceptional, IMO) and the guys by the lake.

I have done some few weddings with M3s, 50 Cron and 90 Elmar, no flash, and I know well that it's no easy task to do.

Regards for you and José (interesting city Lima and very agreable people over there)

-Iván

Hi, Todd:

What a photo !

IMO you need technique comments the same as much as I need a bullit in my head . . . but I agree that so much equipment oriented chat can be boring.

Thanks for sharing.

-Iván

I, for one, will stay tuned to your posting: my vote for the uncropped version. If cropped, I'd do it at his RHS sleeve height. Not ideal, right; but distracting items taken away.

All in all: good photo. Or, at least, I really like it.

Regards, CK. Thanks for sharing.

BTW: I don't feel confortable calling you just "CK" and tend to feel in need of apologyzing for it . . .