Life expectancy of 120 film

[james_mullineaux]

There's alot of talk about digital vs MF, and the dealth of film.

Does anyone have an educated guess as to how long film (specifically

120) will last? Any nubmers/stats/experiences corroberating your

theories? Will film ever die? They still make oil paints, water

colors, etc (remember photography was going to put painters out of

business). I have a couple of MF cameras, a kiev 60, two Koni-Omegas,

and I was thinking of gradually piecing together a Hassy over a year

or so. Will I be able to enjoy the camera long enough to justify the

expense? Are there alternative processes that can be used with MF

equipment? Most of it seems geared towards LF. Do I worry too much

about things I have no control over? :) Thanks in advance.

 

-James

[john_stockdale2]

My guess is that the last couple of manufacturers of film will find it very profitable, and will continue to manufacture. Maybe black and white will continue longer, since it's cheaper to make, and doesn't need exotic chemicals for processing. Film isn't much good without paper, although you can make it yourself if necessary.

[j king]

Will 120 film be around? Yes. Will Kodak/Agfa/Ilford/Fuji be making a wide range of films? I'd guess no/no/yes/yes.

 

If there is a market, however small, someone will find a way to make a profit by servicing it. It will probably not be Kodak or their ilk, but in many film sizes, the 'major' companies have already abandoned the market. The smaller companies are moving in. I understand there is a growth in ULF camera sales - a TINY market compared to 120 cameras, and there are film suppliers for these huge cameras.

[benny_spinoza]

Buy a film camera and enjoy. There are alot of people in this world who shoot 6X6cm, 6X7cm, 6X9cm, 4X5, and higher for the wonderful resulting images. Do you think there will ever be reasonably priced one-shot digital sensors for these formats? I doubt it. And there still are many people in this world who will be shooting 35mm for a very long time. I can see where the R&D spent on film may decrease. But once the technology and captial equipment has been paid for, I believe it is relatively cheap to manufacture film because there isn't much labor involved.

 

So don't worry about it.

[maylon_roberts]

No.

No.

It all depends.

 

To say that we have no control over whether or not 120 film will be made is not correct. If we enjoy taking pictures with 120 film, then we should do so. I think it would be a mistake to artificially shut down demand because we think it's "on its way out".... if we do that, then it really will be "on its way out". Keeping 120 film alive starts with each one of us. It's not too late now, but if we give into to the fear and abandon MF then it will be too late- and we'll have only ourselves to blame.

 

Yes, James, piece your Hassy together, and while you're at it, show your children and your children's children how fun MF photography is.

 

Peace.

[erik scanhancer]

I've been reading these discussions for some time now and it

seems that it didn't occur to anybody that once the market for film

was VERY small. Yet, there have been several players for ages

and they all found it worthwhile to invest in R&D. In the late '60

and '70 the film market exploded, but was still a lot smaller than

it was in the late eighties. Today film is a decreasing market for

obvious reasons. But before it will be back to the levels of the

sixties (worldwide) we'll have to go a long long way. And

especially since R&D is no longer badly needed in this field it

may be extremely profitable to produce film till the end of time.

Even at much lower amounts than today's. So please, let's quit

this discussion and have fun with all the magnificent films that

are around (and will be as much longer as we need them).

 

(Having said that, yes, Agfa will probably get out of this market

soon, but that has to do with their change of focus, away from

photography. All the more market share will be left for the

companies left over.)

[joseph_c._ohlsen]

Considering that mainly "pros" use medium format and they are suddenly going digital with their digital backs for medium format cameras, you can expect 220 film to quit first. There are sufficient numbers of amateur photographers to keep 120 going for a long time. Eventually, I suspect 120 will quit before 35mm does. Oddly enough, it seems 4x5 and 8x10 cut film will continue to exist even after rollfilm is gone.

 

Having said that, and even though I believe it, it seems I am selling off most of my 35mm stuff. I like medium format too much.

 

J.C.

[victor4]

For many of us photography is a hobby. Not an investment, not a business. If my hobby was motorcycles it would be quite easy to dump many thou into just one bike. I would use it, perhaps abuse it and fully expect that it would wear out. Perhaps I would only want it until something newer and shinier or faster came along. When I sold or traded it I would only naturally expect to take a loss.

 

Other 'hobbies' consume money without any visible accouterments, eg: clubbing, bar-hopping, travelling, whatever.

 

Photography is fast becoming a disposable industry. The cameras of the future will only have repair parts available for a short time, just like current electronics. Buy one, wear it out, buy the new improved version...

 

My Hasselblads may likely outlast film, even if film is still around after I am long gone, and I plan on being around for quite some time yet.

 

120 film will last far longer than a family vacation to your favorite offshore luxury wherever getaway, probably at least as long as your next car or motorcycle, but probably not as long as a new roof on your house. Purchasing a system at this point is the same as buying a new car or bike though probably a bit cheaper, maybe. The resultant photos should last the rest of your lifetime providing continued pleasure long after films demise.

 

Zeiss is apparently working on a new lens for the 6x6, I seriously doubt they would invest the time and effort if they thought 120 was about to take a permanent dive.

 

I was considering an H1 and a digital back but have instead decided to enhance my existing gear and possibly add a mamiya 7ii. Again, it is just another hobby. Cheaper than some, more expensive than others but like the others the equipment may change, wear out, or interest may wane. Unlike the others the results will last a lifetime. When, or if, film does disappear then you will be able to pick and choose from a mature digital selection, rather than be concerned with the frailties of an industry still in its youth. In addition the new digital backs are being designed with the Hasselblad V series in mind.

 

Although the above idle thoughts may be easily challenged they are presented merely as another way of looking at the film/digital situation. So pick your hobby, spend your money and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

 

Jeez, that sounds corny. Oh well...

 

vic...:)

[pat_wilson1]

People will always be shooting film, just as there are still blacksmiths, people who do stonework by hand. The following will get a bit smaller, but I think of it like I think of the people who still do oil paintings, as long as people paint, people will take photographs on film.

[mike r]

Videography has been around since the 1950's, and everyone back then figured that videotape would soon replace film. Well, here we are some 50 years later, and film is still the preferred medium for motion pictures. Now of course the comparison isn't exact, since motion picture film is meant for projection, similar to slide film, but that said I still believe film will far outlive all of us who are around today. I'm contemplating getting a medium format camera, and the least of my concerns is that I won't be able to buy film for it.

[lachaine]

We've been there before. Even just as far back as the 80's, a great many chickenlittles already foresaw the death of film (and virtually of photography itself), due to the sudden affordability and rise of video cameras. I remember being in Epcot Centre and thinking, "Geez, I'm the only one with a camera here". Well guess what. It didn't happen. Now we have a new generation of chickenlittles.

[nick_wilson2]

I generally agree with the above posters that someone will make film. My bet is Fuji of the major colour manufacturers, if only one is left standing.

 

FWIW, I was recently told by an Ilford rep in Australia that they won't be stopping making film in the conceivable future as it is basically what they do. But in 120????

 

However whether they will make film at all or film in 120/220 size depends on whether people buy it. A completely self fulfilling situation.

 

Also, what are the ALTERNATIVES to film now? Buy a digital back or a DSLR? At least the DSLR will be better and/or cheaper in the future and so money will be 'lost' buying even vaguely comparable digital gear now. Seems that worrying about film now is not worth it for most.

[van_camper]

I think film will be around a long time. Right now digital is not archival with CD's lasting 5-7 yrs, and DVD's they say a bit longer. Many are using hard drives for backing up, they say more reliable and much faster, but they DO break down. So you buy a few hard drives to get around that. Commercial shooters won't care, but fine art photographrs want long lasting, and a shot on film is around a long time. Also, as scanners get better, so will the scans off your film. On the other hand, once it's captured with a digital camera, that is it. Bottom line is film will last easily 150-200 yrs depending on type. Just imagine all the backing up you need to do if you have 5000 images or more, some have 100,000. Do you want to do this every 5-10 years with your fine art images when once on film is enough, and no more worries. Also, film doesn't go obsolete like digital media does (5.25 to 1.44 to CD to DVD), and all in less then 20 yrs.

 

Until CD's improve, that is the question. Even then we got obsolesence working against you if you save to digital. I think film will always have its place, and scanners will get better. It boils down to what your needs will be, and digital cameras and film will serve different purposes, kind of like one film format isn't enough either. One thing can't do it all. I think fine art photographers will keep film selling for a long time, but I do see the average household using digital and not film, so film will become a professional medium. Pro films will stay, amateur gone, and Kodak has already announced that.

[jody_dayton]

Don't ever give up on 120 film. It's the reason National Parks were invented. It's the reason brides get dressed up on their wedding day. I was horrified to find out the bulk of my wedding reception was shot on 35mm film. (The photographer thought he could fool me by cutting 4x6's down to 4x5's.)

 

I remember standing in a photo shop in the early 90's, asking if Advantix was going to be the death of 35mm. Does anyone own an Advantix camera? I thought not.

 

We will hold true to what we believe in... and film manufacturers will continue to profit from our beliefs. And if I can't find my favorite film at WalMart someday? I am already there. Not only do they not sell 120 film, I can't even find 100ASA 35mm any more.

 

It's cheaper on the net anyway.

[kelly_flanigan1]

The current 120 format; ie the Brownie format came out in 1901. This was one of the most popular amateur formats; before the Kodapak; ie instamatic arrived in 1963. It will die off before income taxes disappear; war in the middle east disappears; before ants disappear; before kids ask their parents for money the last time. If folks used 120 more than worrying; the film might last longer./

[douglas_green1]

I believe that it is more accurate to ask how long that there will remain a GOOD VARIETY of 120 emulsions. Because today, you can still get one good B&W and one good color neg emulsion of 127 film, which has a demand of less (perhaps MUCH LESS) than 1/1000th as much as as does 120. It's very possible that major companies like Kodak and Fuji might bail on 120 within the next 5-10 years, but it's FAR less likely that smaller companies that mainly cater to serious amateurs and pros, like Illford will.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the last 1-2 companies in the 120 film business will thrive for at least 15-20 more years after the largest companies bail.

 

And, BTW, if I'm wrong, I personally would buy the brand and production line of the last 120 emulsions left standing, and keep the business running myself - it's too good a niche to let die, even at orders of magnitude lower volumes than are used now.

[hendrik]

Hi,

 

A while ago I invested in a cristal ball on ebay - very handy, but expensive to maintain.

 

This is what the ball said:

 

Within 36 months CD ROM will become obsolete in PC's - all the images stored on such devices will slowly become only memories. The data will become corrupt shortly afterwards.

 

Digital cameras will be disigned with built-in memory that can transfer data via bluetooth so all the images on SD,MD,MC etc. will become memories as well.

 

Throw in the energy crisis looming in the first world and in 4-5 years it will become hard to take,store,print your images.

 

The cristall ball says - " Enjoy the new technology while it lasts, buy cheap deals on ebay, invest in a wet darkroom that can make BIG prints AND do not sel you MF gear"

 

Well it is only a cristall ball - and it does have a few scratches and chips - so who can tell.

 

All I know is that the scenario is much more complicated than just the coming of a new technology. (Wasn't the internet the end of all printed matter?)

 

Guns have been around for a long time yet when there aren't any bullets, knives and swords do the task that they always did.

 

I short. We all have tools to do the task with, don't bet on only one to do all the work all the time.

 

Myself - I'll do it digital on a camera that can also do film.

 

Regards

[gary_ferguson1]

Because of my job I occasionally meet chemists and technicians from the big film companies, when I do I always put the "death of film" question to them.

 

Once you get past the corporate bravado the answers tend to be the same. Yes, the market's declining and we should expect some rationalisation of products and perhaps manufacturers. However, the profitability of film, paper and chemicals, even with smaller scale production, is such that we can be reasonably confident regarding its long-term availability.

[martin_patek_strutsky]

The supply of film is my smallest concern. I guess it will be around for a very long time. The question is more if you are willing to pay the prices asked for it in some years.

 

My concerns are more related to the processing side. What will happen if the last local E-6 lab will have closed?

[gary_ferguson1]

"What will happen if the last local E-6 lab will have closed?"

 

It's a good point, and no-one can deny that over the last year labs have been falling like flies. However, E6 and C41 chemistry aren't that exotic, so even in the worst case scenario you can expect a mail order service plus a few over-the-counter operations in the big cities.

 

I'm no film fundamentalist, I use a DSLR and I've got a medium format digital back on order, but medium format film has never been as affordable as it is today, and if photographers want to enjoy the medium format advantage they should do so untroubled by concerns that their investment will soon be redundant.

[jay_.]

Is everyone really this naive?

[phule]

<< The supply of film is my smallest concern. >>

 

Buy a large deep freeze freezer unit and a large number of lead shields like you find in the x-ray area of a hospital. Fill the freezer with all the film you can find and surround it with the lead. Put the whole thing in the basement too.

 

You'll probably want at least two scintillating paddle/photo tube combos hooked up to an incident counter to ensure you have enough lead. Hooking them up in coincidence will ensure an accurate count.

 

:)

[lachaine]

Unlike some others in this thread, i AM a film fundamentalist, and proud of it. I wouldn't buy a DSLR if my life depended on it. Digital imaging is digital imaging. If you want to pretend it's photography, fine. I knew someone would mention that local E6 processing might disappear. So friggin what!? It's not that long ago, well within the heyday of film, that most places in the world except the very largest cities did not have local E6 processing anyway. You dropped your film off, and it came back a week later from wherever they sent it off. Buy an E6 kit and develop it at home. It's not very hard. Film use has a long, long way to drop before it drops enough to be insignificant.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Re <i>Digital imaging is digital imaging. If you want to pretend it's photography, fine. I knew someone would mention that local E6 processing might disappear. So friggin what</I><BR><BR>This is why I bought a 35 megapixel digital back for 4x5. Our work flow for "shooting giant artwork" was a 4x5 transparency; then scan the transparency. We still do this every blue moon. But the local E6 lab kept on jacking up their prices; and dropping the quality. This BS of skimping on chemicals is not what a pro calls quality. If you pretend that the horse dung being a passed off as E6 processing is ok; maybe folks are color blind. So we abandoned the 4x5 E6 route; to gain control; and regain a professional image again. As E6 drops into the toilet; many diehards will have to bitch alot to gain quality; as production volumes tank; and chemicals are skimped. Costs will have to radically rise; to pay for the dumped chemicals.<BR><BR>Many 120 films have disappeared since I first started out. Old surplus Kodak ortho Verichrome in 120 was what I started out as a kid; developed under safelight in old soupbowels. Royal-X Pan in 120 has disappeared; Panatomic-X Professional has disappeared; Ektar 25 color negative has disappeared; Verichrome Pan in 120 has disappeared.<BR><BR>The decades long drop of available 120 roll films will continue. <BR><BR>The average asa/iso of films today is alot higher than decades ago; so the shelf life and frozen shelf life is less. This means the inventory control of slow moving films will be more difficult; and scrapped out dated films will add to the real cost of film. The older Panatomic-X pro and Ektar 25 have a low asa/iso; and have a radically longer frozen shelf life; compared to todays faster films.<BR><br>Here the local "camera store" doesnt even stock 120 film anymore; I mail order all my 120 films. But they still sell 110 film at the grocery store and Walmart.<BR><BR>I happend to like the 120 "brownie" format alot; and have used it since the 1950's. Contact prints are nice; enlargements fun to do. But with color work for rushed jobs; my 120 work and 4x5 work has almost been abandoned; since the local pro lab folded. <BR><BR>One local guy stopped doing 120 color; and just bought a Canon dslr. He said he would never use "lame digital" two years ago; and even said the same quote <i>"If you want to pretend it's photography, fine. "</i><BR><BR>

[lachaine]

Well, I'm not a pro, so I don't have to deal with anyone else's expectations, even though I do understand what you're saying. I like simple, elegant things (and not just in cameras), and digital cameras just don't fall into that category for me. Sure, I've seen various films come and go - I've been doing photography for well over 30 years. I don't need that many films. I could be happy with just a few if I had to. I'm a long-time fan of Polaroid. A couple of years ago, I was worried that was about to end. Now, it seems to be rebounding in certain specific sectors of the industry, and in particular, for fine art photography. At least two local stores even stock both pack film and 4x5, and they even still sell quite a few SX-70 (Time Zero) and Spectra film packs. So, who knows. Cameras made virtually a century ago can still be used today, and cameras made 50-60 years ago are not much different than the cameras of today, if you leave out the plastic and the automation. Now, that's what I call simplicity and elegance. I can't imagine living in a world where everything we do, even as a hobby or as art, has to be done using complex computerized systems that put so much between the person and the final product. It's just not something I want to do, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. So, I think there will always be at least some niche markets for film. And if the price of film and processing goes up, so be it. People who can afford a $5000 pro DSLR and $2000 image-stabilized zoom lenses just to take weekend snapshots can probably afford the cost of processing film. If it ever gets to the point that photography MUST be done the computer way, I won't be doing it. I'll find something else to do. But I don't expect that to happen in my lifetime, no more than I except the symphony to trade their real instruments in for synthesizers, no more than I expect people to stop doing fine woodwork and cabinet-making at home (and commercially, for that matter), no more than I expect people to stop riding horses or bicycles, no more than I expect them to stop making handcrafted anything... and I could drone on and on with endless examples.