johnmarkpainter Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 OK..... Someone made a casual comment recently that the temperature of your Stop Bath and Wash don't matter as long as they aren't WARMER. Is this true? jmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_benskin Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 John, why waste your time thinking about such things? Just get out there and shoot! :>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeiffel Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Well, though I try to stay within reasonable limits - above and below development bath temp (20°C) - I've never noticed an incidence on the negs. Usually my fixer is around 22°C and wash 18°C, but sometimes it's the opposite or at least different, and still I can't see any obvious difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad_hoffman Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 I saw the same comment and wondered the same thing. It makes a certain amount of sense, but I prefer to keep everything within a couple degrees of each other. I also just read that washing in soft water can cause reticulation. A rinse in distilled is ok, and mixing chems in distilled is obviously ok, but an extended wash might not be. Conrad "eats shoots & leaves" Hoffman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmarkpainter Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 Stephen, Err.....because I process my own film? I have always made a big effort to keep Temps + or - 5 degrees (F) as I read that somewhere (probably Anchell). BUT if I can avoid having to get hot water balances correct to get my rinse water within Spec I would be happy about it. Generally I fill up a pitcher of water for Stop and Wash at the same time I am filling up my Developer water. When it isn't WINTER I would keep Gallon Jugs already filled with water and they would usually be in the 68-70 range. jmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige_buddy Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 did they say to what extent? Manufacturers usually quote minimum temps to accompish effective washing. A few degrees warmer isn't going to hurt either. I personally prepare a bucket of 20C water from which I mix my developer (sometimes with a bit of hot or cold to get the developer temp right) and do my rinses for stop (2 x fill, agitate, dump - I don't use a chemical stop bath) and for several rinses after the fix. I either do a Ilford fill, invert, dump routine or fill the tank with the 20C water and plug in the Paterson tap washer hose and let it go at whatever temp is coming out the cold tap. Since the water coming in is only a trickle it takes a while for the temp to change to the tap temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn_thoreson Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Save yourself some headaches and keep your temps in line. It's not hard to do, under any circumstances, and one ruined "once in a lifetime" shot will make you wish you had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholas_t. Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Valid question. Never mind the naysayers (you know who you are)...<p> Unfortunately I don't really have to anything add... apart from a wise man once told me that every ten degrees C doubles the activity of a reaction... or thereabouts :-)<p> So, if you think about what is happening essentially you are increasing the effectiveness of a chemical reaction the more you increase temperature. Other than that, you can also be exposing a substrate to an environment outside of what it was designed for. So, in my mind, as long as you are careful a few degrees above or below a previous solution will not cause undue <i>shock</i> to film--not that I've seen anyway. I try and keep my washing temperatures to 21C because having temperatures up to temperature seems to make a difference as I don't get water marks with the method I use (LFN). It also gets to dishes cleaner so that must be proof :-) (hotter than 21C)<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_benskin Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 John, err, I was just giving you some of your own medicine. You always seem to add the "just shoot" statement in the more technical threads. I've always found that extremely rude, contemptuous, and ignorant. Where do you get the nerve to reject out of hand something like sensitometry when you don't even know about the importance of temperature consistency? Someday you may realize there's more than your limited perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmarkpainter Posted May 15, 2004 Author Share Posted May 15, 2004 Stephen, You must have me confused with one of the many grouches around here...one of which seems to be YOU today :) You know all you have to do is click on my name and you can read many of my boring posts where I patiently give information when I think I have something to add and humbly ask dorky questions (like this thread) when I just don't know. Oh yeah....go out and take some pictures :) (and no brick walls) jmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_eaton Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I don't use stop bath for film and haven't since I saw the entire veteran staff for a local metro paper laugh at me for bringing it up. I've worked with several very well run B/W departments and never saw stop bath used, nor effort made to keep wash temps up to developer temps. In an E-6 or C-41 line the final wash is often 30degrees lower than developer. I use the same water for all the rinses, so it's easier to simply drop my fix temp down to the same temp as the first rinse, which in the winter can get down to 50F. Feel free to drain your water heater, but it's a lot easier if you simply keep your fix at the same temp as your cold water wash, in which case this usually means your developer is going to be warmer. As long as you don't go from cold to warm again you won't get reticulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen_benskin Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 <i> John Painter Photo.net Patron, mar 13, 2004; 06:47 p.m. <p> <b>Don't forget to take pictures :)</b> <p> jmp</i> <p> John, O.K., maybe you're not one of the major transgressors, but not totally innocent either. This is a pet peeve with me, and maybe I jumped on you too hard. But let this be a lesson to all those others.;>) At least I'm not yet at the point where I'm out walking around the streets spouting something about socialism. <p> About temperatures, it's best to keep them close together to avoid shock to the emulsion causing reticulation. There's less chance of reticulation after a hardening fix. Some people might argue, but plus or minus five degrees for the stop and fix from the dev. temp shouldn't cause too much trouble. I've never tried going from normal dev temp to ice water, but can't see how it could be good. So, I guess the general rule should be don't have extreme changes in bath temperatures. <p> According to LP Clerc's <i><u>Photography, Monochrome Processing</i></u>, <i>In general,reticulation is liable to be caused by any circumstance tending to cause very rapid swelling or shrinkage of the gelatin.</i> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_wilson1 Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I've got a print in my final portfolio of a neg that accidently got reticulated because of poor developing practices when I first started out. It looks fantastic with the shot, but save yourself the trouble, and keep your temperatures pretty consistant. Dev is the important one, however keep the rest of your chemestry at the same temp. It's all about consistancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmarkpainter Posted May 15, 2004 Author Share Posted May 15, 2004 That's all good information. Scott, I do use a Water stop...I was so happy when I found out I didn't need to mix a stop bath. I use TF-4 Fixer (I reuse it) so my Fixer Temp is going to be "room" Temp (in my basement...it stays in the 68-72 F range until the Winter. Stephen, No worries and thanks for the science :) jmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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