Again a purple tri-x question

[juno nimis]

Many discussions have already dealed with this problem, but after 2

days of searching I haven't found a definite answer yet. So I'm

sorry but I have to ask for your help again.

 

My problem is purple tri-x 400 negatives. I shot it @400. -

Developed it for 6,75 minutes in D-76 1:1 - Stopped it for 1 minute -

Fixed it for 7 minutes in Amaloco fixer (not rapid) with continuous

agitation, found that it was very purple so I fixed it for another 5

minutes (12 in total!) - Washed it for 40 minutes (because a long

wash was also suggested in some discussions).

 

And still I got very soft and purple negatives! I'll develop it

longer the next time to get more contrast but that won't solve the

purple problem.

 

I used the fixer for the third time, so it's pretty fresh. Right

before I developed the tri-x film, I also developed a fuji neopan

1600 film and this one turned out perfect with a 7 minute fix (as

you can see in the picture). The last time I used it fresh and I

also got the purple coloring.

 

Some suggested alkaline baths or presoaking in all kinds of

chemicals, but isn't there a simple, clear solution to this problem?

 

Thanks (for your patience with this problem)!<div></div>

[chris_waller]

Re: Purple haze (those of my generation will recognise this reference).

 

I don't know the fixer you mention but if it is conventional hypo then it will work more slowly. Is your fixer at 20 C?

 

I fix in Ilford Hypam Rapid Fixer diluted 1+4 for 2-3 minutes (but I test using the leader and work on the 2 x clearing time principle). Then I wash using the Ilford method, but being a belt-and-braces man I double up the number of inversions, i.e. 10, 20 and 40. With some films a slight residual purple tone remains so I give an extra wash (40 inversions again).

 

Now I'm fortunate that I live in an area where the water is slightly alkaline and this helps washing (see Michael Maunder, 'Ag' issue 31. May 2003). If you have a problem, then the first wash should be in water containing a teaspoon of sodium carbonate (washing soda). Then go on to the usual 10, 20 and 40 inversions with fresh water. This may help.

[tklim]

I would like to join in the discussion, as some of its aspects sound very interesting to me. I haven't used the TRI-X for quite some time, but I've shot several rolls of Plus-X recently and, to my dismay, found the developed films to be unusually dark (their base, I mean), while the average density of the silver image was O.K. I use FOMA rapid fixer and a standard washing procedure and haven't had any problems of this kind with other films. My Plus-X isn't actually purple, rather bluish-grey, but with an excessive base density, to be sure. I used three different devs: D-76 1+1, Microphen 1+3 and Aculux-2 1+14. The look of the film base (all unexposed areas) was identical in each case. I guess I'll have to stick to FP-4, even though its Kodak counterpart is considerably less expensive where I live.

[rick_jones5]

Juno-I would like to change the direction of the discussion. Is the base color of your negatives really a problem or are you simply trying to solve a processing quirk? The point I'm making is I can't remember anyone claiming the base tint caused a printing problem. Furthermore, I never remember anyone documenting that a variation in base tint was detrimental in anyway whatsoever. So I'll make a deal with you. If you will explain your thinking on this I will be happy to jump in on the "get the purple out" discussion. Now when you talk about exposing Tri X at 400 and developing in D76 1:1 for 6:75 @ 68 that really would be a problem in my system!

[juno nimis]

Rick - First of all, you're right about the development time. Stupid me used the time of undiluted D-76. So the next time I'll develop it for 9,75 minutes (no wonder the negs look so flat and without contrast). But this won't solve the purple haze, because I've also had the same results with Ilfosol-S.

 

The reason why I want to get rid of the haze is simply the fact that want my negatives to look fresh and clear. And this should be possible, because I don't believe Kodak would produce a film that is supposed to stay purple. And what also bothers me is that some people do en others don't have the haze, why is that?!

 

So yes, maybe it is more the solution to a processing quirk than a printing problem, but still it bothers me. Especially when you see the tri-x hanging next to the neopan film.

 

Chris: My fixer by the way is 20 degrees and I use a hose (force film washer) to wash the film, so I don't invert it.

[jim_appleyard]

Hi Juno,

 

First off, don't dev. longer. The purple stuff isn't related to your exposure. Secondly, Do NOT fix for longer than is necessary. This isn't good for the negs, especially in an acid fixer. Thirdly, the alkaline baths and pre-soaks ARE the simple answer. It only takes 5 minutes at max. to do a presoak and it's fun to watch all that purple stuff (blue with Plus-x, nice jade green with APX 25 and I think Tech Pan is black) go down the drain before you start dev.

 

The alkaline fixer is much more soluable in water so it washes out faster and more completely.

 

If you're using an acid fixer with a HCA, a lot of the purple will come out in the HCA.

 

The puple haze doesn't effect anything except aesthetics and personally it drives me nuts, so I pre-soak, use alkaline fix and wash for 10 min instead of 5. This works.

[rick_jones5]

I have used a lot of Tri X developed in D76 1:1 (both old and new flavor-35mm and 120) over the years and have never seen the tint you and others have described. IMO the difference between your results and mine occurs after the stop bath. My thoughts: switch to a liquid ammonium thiosulfate based fixer. I have used Kodafix to fix my negatives for a long long time using a film end to check clearing time then doubling (some suggest triple) that time. If the liquid fix doesn't do the trick I would try to eliminate the water supply as a culprit by using successive changes of distilled water (say 5-10 changes with agitation) over 5 minutes. I really have no clue why your results are so different than mine but my best guess is the answer lies in the fix or wash. While many believe it not necessary I do use PermaWash for 3 min with agitation before the final wash but can't imagine that is relevant. If after trying these changes you're still seeing purple live with it or switch. Life is too short.

[ed_pierce2]

With the new tri-x (4x5) I fix for the normal time. I then rinse them in a bath of plain water until the water is clear; you can see the purple stuff if you use a white tray. Then into the hypo clear, then a final wash. There is still a tiny hint of purple as compared to the old tri-x, but I haven't had any problems printing.

[conrad_hoffman]

FWIW, I did some Plus-X a while back, using FX2 and Formulary TF-4 akaline fixer. It was brilliant purple. Fixing in old fashioned Kodak powdered fixer yielded normal results. If you have a lot of neutral base density, that's a good thing. They make the base grey to prevent light pipeing (sp?). I too find the purple disturbing, so I keep using acid fixer with Kodak films. My guess is the purple can be killed either in development (Rodinal), in fixing (traditional fixers), or with a post process bath (HCA). No idea why this is such a problem of late. I don't mind a tint, as it causes no printing problems, but the brilliant purple scares me a bit :-)

[hans_beckert]

Use rapid fixer only. Powder fixer is inadequate. Fix for 3-5 minutes in rapid fixer, then use perma wash for 3 minutes, twice. The purple will be gone.

[juno nimis]

Jim: Just to be on the safe side...you pre-soak simply in normal tapwater for 5 minutes before developing. So this is the first step?

And do you maybe have an example of a brand / type that is an alkaline fixer, perhaps kodafix as Rick mentioned or maybe Ilford rapid fix?

 

Thanks

[juno nimis]

Hans: Also 'a just to be on the safe side' question for you: Perma wash is that for example Ilford Galerie Washaid?

[hans_beckert]

Perma-Wash is a brand name. Ilford's product should be similar.

[db1]

For some reason I need to jump in here.

 

First, I too have been shooting the new Tri-X (400TX) and have been getting purple negs. So, I made new Kodak fix (from powder Kodak #197-1746) and the negs cleared after 7 mintues with agitation.

 

Second, if you read the other posts here, you will find that the purple cast has no negative effect on your negatives or the ability to print them.

 

Third, are you sure you made the fixer correctly (I do not mean to be a smart a**).

 

Fourth, I make all of my chemicals with distilled water and tap water does not touch my film until the final rinse.

 

And lastly, Hans, can you tell me why Kodak powder fix is inadequate? I've been using it for about 4 years and never had a problem.

[hans_beckert]

I have not used powder fix in ages (I cannot even remember using it). Kodak Rapid fixer is what I use. Anchell and Troop say that powder fixer is obsolete. I have no notion why anyone would use it. It has lower capacity, for one thing.

[db1]

But why is powder fix obsolete?

 

I have communicated with Steve Anchell and I trust what he says but just because he says it's obsolete, makes it obsolete?

 

Give me a better reason why I should not use this fix. It does what I need it to. So why should I or anyone else stop using it?

[hans_beckert]

It does not fix completely, because of silver iodide used in modern films. Read Anchell & Troop. As I said, I cannot even remember the last time I used powder fix.

[db1]

I just called Kodak (1-800-242-2424 x19) and was told the powder fix will work perfectly with the new 400TX film.

 

Are they going to tell me to use another brand of fix? No. Would they tell me to use the Rapid Fixer? I sure hope so.

[hans_beckert]

Here is the quote from A&T.

[conrad_hoffman]

The Kodak powdered fixer thing has bugged me for a while- that's why I switched to the Formulary TF-4. It has great capacity and is an all around superior solution (no pun intended). Still, in spite of the speculation about iodide, I've yet to see *any* actual evidence of inadaquate fixing from powdered fixer (when properly used). No reports of fading, staining, light sensitivity, or flatulence. Well, maybe not the last. It does have hardener, so if you tone you might not want to use it, but again, I've personally had no trouble. I've certainly had no problems with it fixing Ilford Cooltone and Warmtone RC, nor any film, Kodak or Ilford, and I've been using it for many years. If anything, I have less history with TF-4. Thus, at least with those materials, and with all due respect to A&T, there seems little cause for concern if you want to keep using the powdered stuff.

[jim_appleyard]

Juno,

I pre-soak in tap water at 68 degrees F (that's 20 C right?) with 1/2 teaspoon of sodium carbonate or Borax in 1 liter of water. The sod. carb. or Borax isn't essential, but helps get rid of the purple. If you have doubts about your tap water, used distilled. Try a test roll first. Go take shots of your dog in the backyard or something very replaceable.

 

Pre-soaking is controversial. Some do it, like me, and are happy doing it. Others are dead against it. It, like the purple haze, is a personal thing. Try it both ways and see which you like best.

 

I use alkaline TF-3 fixer mixed from scratch from Anchell's "Darkroom Cookbook". This book, and his book with Bill Troop, "The Film Developing Cookbook", are worth every penny you pay for them. You can also order TF-4 fixer from Photographers Formulary, Photoformulary.com. 800-922-5255. You can order bulk chemicals and mix your own sauces. Fun & CHEAP! You can also try artcraftchemicals.com. 800-682-1730. I like to support Artcraft as they live in a nearby town, but Formulary is an excellent oufit.

 

Hans'--just when I was going to disagree with you on your statement about powder fixer being obsolete, you come up with a page # out of a book I have! I never read that page! You do/should learn something everyday.

[hans_beckert]

As I said, I have not used the plain hypo since many years. I wonder why anyone would desire to do so.

[Andrew in Austin]

With Tri-X - I prewash for one minute in tempered water, that is filtered rather than distilled. This sets the temperature of the film and tank before developing. It also seems to remove a lot of the antihalation pigment.

 

I recommend the use of filtered water when making working solutions, but you can use distilled water as well.

 

With regards to fixer, I use the liquid Kodafix, mainly because with the powdered fixer, the stuff should be allowed to settle overnight in a gallon container and then poured into smaller bottles. I skeptical about to the claim that powdered fixers don't work as well. Both the powdered and liquid fixers from Kodak seem to clear the film just fine.

 

By the way, I've just souped two rolls of the New Tri-X in 120 and yes they do have more of a tint to them compared to a roll of APX 100 that I developed on the same day. The Tri-X was developed in D76 1:1, while the APX 100 was souped in Rodinol 1:50. I'll be printing tonight and will try to determine, if it really makes any difference on the projected side of things.

 

One other comparison, Ilford's XP-2 Super has a definite tint to its base after development and it is truly my favorite film for indoor B&W. Even with its tinted base, XP-2 still prints well, which leads me to believe this isn't something to worry about.

[jim_a]

I fought this for a while and read all the "cures." The only real solution IMO is to go to a two-bath fixing method. Do some Googling on this in the newsgroups. Recently I ran a roll of T-Max 100 and Neopan 400 in fixer that should have still been good based on the amount of film run through it. I keep two snippets from each film. I fixed them for three times the "normal" amount and then took one snippet from each emulsion and and put them into fresh fixer. In just a minute each film was noticeably clearer than the one that only had the first fixer. Two-bath fixer. Give it a try. I'm now a believer.

[jim_a]

Also see this link: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/29ach">http://tinyurl.com/29ach</A>, specifically the first and third posts.