Developing for a 5 stop range in negatives.

[brad_smith2]

I recently got my first 4x5, and I'm starting to learn the zone

system. I am kind of frustrated because nowhere can I find good

explaination of determining developing times for N+1/N-1/N+2/N-2

developing to create a desitired stop range (for contrast control) in

negatives. Can anyone tell me where I can find some good resources to

become clear on this technique? I am currently using a 4x5 toyo with

Tri-X 320 film developed in T-Max Developer.

[hkbmac]

Check out Les McLean's Book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0715314483/qid=1076645338//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8156513-2085724?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[brad_smith2]

I also bought the minor white book about the zone system, still on order.

[david_goldfarb]

Ansel Adams, _The Negative_.

[conrad_hoffman]

I think Adams "The Negative" is quite clear and readable, but lots of people disagree. The Minor White book (the little paperback?) is (IMHO) pretty weird and confusing. Read it after the others, lest you never understand the ZS.

[stephen_benskin]

I feel Adams' book lacks some specifics on the topic of pushing. Phil Davis' book "Beyond the Zone System" is a good one to start with. There is also "Sensitometry for Photographers." It might be out of print, but you can find it on Amazon.com.

[m0002a]

Check your local library for "Zone VI Workshop" by Fred Picker. His method is based on total system contrast (which includes your printing technique). Picker uses Ansel Adamss' method, but explains it much better. But if you have a condenser head on your enlarger now, and are thinking of ever switching to a diffusion type later (good idea IMO), then you probably want to do that sooner rather than later (before you do testing for N, N-1, etc.).

[richard_ilomaki]

Brad

 

I second the recommendation for Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop. The best and clearest explanation of exposure, contrast development times etc. I have seen. Fred was a bit of a nit picker but he knew his stuff. His finished prints are as good as anyone's, so he did as he said.

 

Cheers

[tim_curry]

If you do your "personal E.I." testing (Fred Picker's book), there will be a lot of data generated which is useful for zone system testing and placement. Once you have your film speed nailed down, the tests you do for zone VIII development will provide an answer to your questions. Keep track of these development times, as they are the door to expansion and contraction of the Zone System. You will see a pattern, but it may take a while until the understanding sinks in.

 

This understanding is based on a subject I have not yet heard discussed in this forum, the "Personal Density Index," mine is actually quite high.

 

In general, a faster film will require more development time for expansion than a slow film. I use numbers based on a percentage of "N" development time for N+ and N-. A slow film may need 20% for plus or minus and a fast film may need 35% for plus and minus times. You will have to work out these numbers for yourself, that's why you need to pick one film, developer, meter and paper at first and stick with it for a while to really understand what is happening. Try it for a year and write back to us. It has taken me that long to understand what I did last year, hence my high "Personal Density Index."

[david_f._stein]

Fred Picker and if you read the newsletters over the years, Fred is honest enough to

de-emphasize the need to customize every single negative to the Nth degree.

Materials and working methodology have changed since the Zone System was first

described, especially the prevalence of variable contrast enlarging papers and, it

seems, the re-discovery of "automatic" developers like Pyro and developing by

inspection. The latter goes to the roots of photography in the glass plate era. Divided

D-23 is also superb. David Vestal in a column related the following, "Ansel, if I

understand the Zone System, isn't it expose adequately and don't over-develop." To

which Adams replied, "Yup."....

[michael_young3]

There are likely better sources, but there is some discussion in Schaefer's "Basic Techniques of Photography, Book 2". He talks a little about step charts and basic poor man's densitometry in the darkroom. I don't particularly recommend the book, not because it isn't good, but only because much of the content is about alternative processes. I have little interest in cyanotype, for example, except as a historical curiosity. What would help me is browsing through the private cookbooks of those who have already done the leg work. I must not be looking in the right places, but I reckon if anyone is doing this for themselves, the results are jealously guarded. I haven't found characteristic curves published by anyone but the film manufacturers.

 

The best I can suggest is to follow the data sheet push and pull process charts, which is somewhat close to N+, N++, and N-. Some film makers publish delta gamma charts for various of their own developers. It's a good starting point, and for me, quite adequate since I'm scanning and processing digitally. In any case, it will have to do, since I have very little interest in printing and measuring step charts.

[stephen_benskin]

I just found the attachment among some old papers. I think it might be helpful. It's a chart defining Contrast Indexes for various luminance ranges.<div></div>

[christopher_nisperos2]

Hi Brad,

 

You say, "nowhere can I find good explaination of determining

developing times for N+1/N-1/N+2/N-2 developing to create a

desitired stop range (for contrast control) in negatives."

 

First, I agree with everyone else: buy a good book (Adams'

Negative or Picker's Zone VI Workshop �or heck, why not

both?).

 

Then, I'd like to offer the following explanation for finding your

correct N+ or N- times; you must TEST. The above-mentioned

books will give you enough basic information to conduct your

testing and analyse your results in a rudimentary way. A

densitometer would be helpful, if you want more precision ...

but I believe that going "beyond the zone system" encompasses

a related, though subtlely different hobby �sensitometry. If you're

just starting out, stick with Adams and Picker at first. It'll avaoid

alot of confusion.

 

Anyway, books or even densitometers aren't going to tell you

everything. You'll also have to use your head and your eyes. For

example, if "N-2" doesn't look like what you think it should, you'll

end up adjusting your development to fit what feels right for you

anyway!

 

"It ain't the sheet music that counts, it's the performed music".

(Mozart) (I think). Good luck, be patient and have fun.

[gone nomad]

Ansel's "The Negative" is likely the best place to start. Les McLean's book is well written; however, I prefer to use a densitometer. Thus, Adam's book is better for me. Davis's "Beyond the Zone System" is outstanding. It goes beyond Adam's book.

 

Knowing what paper you plan to print on is also very important. Some papers, e.g. AZO, require higher densities than VC papers.

 

Thus, it stands to reason that you first want to know your papers (and light source). Then, you can establish the necessary densities. From here you can establish the correct speed and developing times.