Flash for weddings

[doug_spafford]

I have some weddings to shoot this summer and I am trying to decide

what kind of flash to buy. I already have an EOS 10D and Elan 7ne

along with a 550ex flash. I'm considering another 550ex plus 2

420ex's with E-TTL vs the sunpack or vivitar route and shooting

everything manually. Anyone have any advice. Cost is not an issue,

but why spend alot more if you don't need to?

[timberwolf1]

If you are going to go manual, you are smart. Use a Norman 200b with a

www.paramountcords.com cord that has a voltage drop device in the cord. Search for

"norman 200b photo.net" to find many posts on the features of this flash. Try "Norman

200b timber" also.

 

This unit has real power and versatility. Use it with a Stroboframe.

[picturesque]

You're going to get a huge range of answers on this question because everyone has a different opinion about how flash should be used at weddings based on the style of weddings they shoot. I personally like using manual off-camera flashes for the control, but if you are happy with your E-TTL results so far--some are, some aren't--then get the 550 and 420s. Do some research on this forum and maybe some others about the gizmos needed to hook up E-TTL systems. I have heard of some problems associated with these. I have also heard of some problems associated with E-TTL and digital cameras. I can't speak from experience because I don't shoot digital, but there are plenty of threads about this on this forum.

[andre_noble4]

Quantum "QFlash T2" head on a bracket powered with Quantum "Turbo" battery pack.

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

Shooting a wedding reception with a digital camera and manual flash is absurd. Manual flash was viable in the old, MF film days only because of the large exposure latitude of print film. With the narrow latitude of digital, forget it. Even back then, photographers usually used a single, fixed focal length lens and followed rules like: close enough for a head & shoulders shot � f16, half length � f11, full length � f8. You either have to change the f stop, or power setting on the flash every time you change your flash to subject distance. I�ll bet that you don�t find anyone actually using manual flash with digital for receptions, and for good reason.

 

If your shooting PJ style a bracket mounted flash, fast lenses and a 550 is all you need. For formals you can use the flashs fired into umbrellas, in manual, for better looking light.

[picturesque]

Another thing to consider would be the quality of light from small shoe-mount flashes vs. parabolic or larger reflectored flashes (such as Metz 60s). Because the flash reflector is larger, the light is a little more even and perhaps less harsh. I do know of at least one pro who uses manual flash--multiple flash and all manual--with digital.

[timberwolf1]

The Norman 200b or 200c or 400b has the softest light accessories available for any

system. This is a large, very large for a portable unit, softbox (actually two of them) of

about 19" round that fits on your flash head. Then they have the white domed reflector in

about 5" size. You have far more options available to you than these plastic hotshoe and

TTL type flash units.

 

On the issue of "old style" manual systems. The reality is that unless you want to distort

people and get complaints in any photographing endeavor, you need to stay at a distance

from your subjects. You need to use discipline to do this. Furthermore, you realize

after taking 100,000s of shots at weddings as I have, that you will be at two major

distances from your subjects: about 5 feet and about 11 feet. These just happen, by

coincidence to be where a major f stop change happens for a normal type lens, and slight

wide angle.

 

Now, given this discipline and this knowledge of what happens in photojournalistic mode

as you are photographing people at tables, dancing, standing in front of fireplaces and

talking with one another you can easily select f stops without need of any auto modes. As

a matter of fact, where auto mode would be fooled, you can rise above the problem and

get great exposures.

 

As for "converting to digital" and the "less latitude" so called problem. Actually, digital has

more latitude than film. But to use it, you need to use an exposure change that places you

under the highlights about 1/2 f stop more than you would have using film. The software

will "dig" for any details in the shadows. As for worry about highlights being "blown out",

no problem. Nearly all night you are actually only using 2 f stops. Occassionally, you use

a 3rd or 4th f stop when you do a group photo. Given this real knowledge that you can

instantly apply at any time, you simply set a constant, that is right, constant f stop on your

camera of, oh f8 +1/2 or f9 and proceed to photograph anything up to a group picture of

5-6 people. If you need a larger group, you drop down one stop and use f6.3.

 

In otherwords, weddings are really exposure simple most of the time. You simply need to

know more about what is happening at weddings. You can easily find an exposure for

bounced light, too.

 

You see, the nice thing about the Norman 200b is its rocker switches. These allow the

photographer to change power without looking at the unit.

 

There may be more explanation I could give you. But I have explained elsewhere on

photo.net concerning the benefits of becoming a discliplined photographer rather than an

out of control photographer. You want control. And you want to know what the control

should be at every shot. It becomes as easy as typing on your computer. But it is truly

easier, because the Norman 200b has only 3 "keys"!

 

That is right, you use digital by simply dialing down the camera a slight amount, then

proceed to have success. As it is, I am not off ever by more than 1/2 f stop. And normally

it is closer to 1/3rd f stop. I contact strip my own weddings proofs and have done so for

decades. So, I can see the results of my procedures.

 

Again, digital has MORE latitude due to the ability of the software to "dig out details".

Furthermore, Sigma SD10 digital camera has "fill in flash mode" which is something you

should investigate at www.dpreview.com This is a mode that provides real time contrast

adjustment of the scene. It is something other digital cameras do not have.

 

The Norman 200b is very powerful for digital useage. But when you add the soft diffusors,

you lose 2 f stops anyway.

 

An advocate of diffusor useage and large portable Norman softboxes is Tom Meyer. He

has a number of photos here on photo.net showing his skill with these manual systems. I

think he has Lumedyne. Lumedyne and Norman can share the same reflectors.

 

So, let's get past this techno-ignorance that we need to rely upon auto modes to do our

job. These opinions come from those who never developed the skills of using manual

flash in the first place. They do not understand how it can be that a human can out do an

auto mode. Not all auto mode functions give a better result time after time. They need

to be used with care and applied intelligence.

 

A Norman 200b will simply have the power to be able to add-on diffusors and to use them

at good distances while set at ASA 100.

[doug_spafford]

Thanks for all of the advice. You have given me alot to think about. I am a bit confused about the latitude of digital though. I was thinking that I had about 3/10ths over and 6/10ths under for a good exposure. Is this correct?

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

First off, Timber doesn't shoot digital, is regurgitating hearsay, as usual, and doesn�t know what he�s talking about, as usual. �3/10ths over and 6/10ths� is probably what you want, particularly if you�re shooting JPEG and not RAW.

 

If you look at the shot of Tom Meyer�s rig, you�ll see that he has the auto exposure module for his Lumedyne. He may be using a Norman softbox, but he isn�t using a Norman light. If you want to shoot at either 5� or 11� from your subject, and have pictures that look like your parent�s wedding album do like Timber.

 

I happen to use Quantum T2 lights. They are the same sort of flash as the Lumedyne and Norman (they use all the same accessories), but they can be used in full TTL mode even on Canon and Nikon DSLRs. At a client�s instance I shot a Bat Mitzvah with slide film. About 99% of the shots had perfect exposure, because I ran a test roll with a light meter and knew how to set the compensation before the shoot. At the shoot I just had to concentrate on getting the right image at the right moment, and not having to think about if I was exactly 5� or 11� away from my subject.<div></div>

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

Bar/Bat Mitzvahs are a little different than weddings.<div></div>

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

They dress a little different too.<div></div>

[doug_spafford]

Thanks to everyone for the input. Great pics Bruce! I have considered the Quantum T2D as an option. This would give me more power and still be able to rely on TTL metering. At the same time I realize that the Elan 7n can take advantage of Canons new E-TTL II metering and wonder if it offers any real advantages.

 

Thanks again

 

Doug

[bill c.]

Good answers from a lot of people. I am investigating the Q-flash, but right now for my DSLR's I am using Nikon and Olympus dedicated on-camera flashes with off-camera cables hooked up to an old Stroboframe.

 

The most important thing is to have the flash directly over the lens, so that you don't get the dreaded side-shadow. And the fellow who says that exposure at weddings is usually quite limited in scope and simple in nature is quite right--but that doesn't necessarily make it easy in quick-shoot mode.

 

Right now, in combination with the on-camera flash I'm using two to four radio slaves set up in corners of the room, usually bounced off the ceiling but sometimes direct. Currently they're Vivitar 285's with big gel-cells on them, supplemented by Alien Bees if the room is really massive. The on-camera flashes will be set on TTL, except when I'm shooting with a Vivitar 285 on an Olympus E20n. In that case, the sensor on the flash suffices.

 

Sometimes the backgrounds will get blitzed, but if you hide a light behind someone's head in the image, the effect is a nice rim light with a lighter background, really cool looking. No matter where the lights fall, they usually have the effect of cutting way down on the contrast, which allows more exposure latitude. It does quite well with digital, from my experience, and gives a different look than other photographers usually get, which can help.

 

The Q-flash looks to be a great system, and the Normans are powerful, simple, and reliable. The important thing is to know what effect you want to achieve and set up your system to make it happen.

 

-Bill C.

[mike_kearney]

Also, I understand that Quantum is coming out with a new flash, the Q4 or something like that. I'm not sure what features this new flash will have but it is worth looking into.

 

Also, my earlier response was deleted. Accidently?

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

I saw samples as of the Q4 flash last fall at Quantums booth at Photo Expo. The differences are: smaller, lighter body, a second multipin connector on the body (so that multiple flashes can be daisy chained in TTL mode) and there are flash conformation LEDs on three sides of the body. Light output and accessories/reflectors remain unchanged. The T4/X4 will replace the T2D/X2D models.

[tomweis]

<p><img src="http://www.tomweisphoto.com/weddings/svetlanavitaly/

pages20.21.jpg"></p>

<p>I shoot with two Nikon F4s', each with a Pocket Wizard Multimax attached to the

bottom via an aluminum plate and plugged into the PC socket on the camera. The

plate is screwed to the tripod socket, and the transmitter is screwed to the plate at

the rewind crank end of the camera body. This way I can fire on-camera flash (usually

with Omni Bounce's attached) AND fire the transmitters simultaneously.</p>

<p>Usually my remote lights are two White Lightning Ultra 600's which recycle fast

and will fire even if they are not fully recycled. I also use a Q-Flash X2 with a

Lumedyne 400WS pack on a self-collapseable Redwing lightstand. These stands

automatically close when you pick them up which is really nice at a crowded reception

hall! Hopefully, I am able to bounce the WL's off the ceiling for softer light. These

three lights are used in manual (sometimes I use the Auto setting on the Q-Flash).

The WL's stay in place and the Q-Flash is mobile, so I always have at least two

sources of flash for almost all shots.</p>

<p><img src="http://www.tomweisphoto.com/weddings/morewedpix/

gn23.jpg"></p><p>Of course if the available light is beautiful, I'll not use any of this

stuff. :-)</p>

[twmeyer]

nice stuff, Tom. <p>The editorial pages are cool, consistently interesting. You've found some good models... got a steady client too, huh? sweet.... t

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>

 

The Norman 200b or 200c or 400b has the softest light accessories available for any

system. This is a large, very large for a portable unit, softbox (actually two of them)

of about 19" round that fits on your flash head. Then they have the white domed

reflector in about 5" size. </I><P> these reflectors will also fit the Quantum,

Lumadyne and I believe, the Sunpak 120 flashes. You canalso use Chimera Mini or

Maxi softbox.<P>Very nice work Tom W.!

[doug_spafford]

I'm getting lots of ideas here for flashes, but is anyone using Canon speedlights to shoot weddings with the 10d? I just can't seem to get a consistent histogram shooting e-ttl. When I shoot portraits I use a light meter and alienbees and get beautiful exposures. I am just not sure I trust e-ttl for a wedding. Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

[ellis_vener_photography]

your histogram will be different depending on the qualities of the subject: a

bunch of guys in black tuxedos will push the histogram to the left end -- you

just want to be sure it isn't so far under that you are clipping. On the other

hand a bride and bridakl maids in white and near white dresses will push the

histogram to the right, but once again you want to be sure you are not losing

detail from over exposure .

 

A frame filling shot of a groom in a black tux and the bride in a white dress will

give you peaks near both ends ofthe histogram and a valley in between the

peaks.

[picturesque]

Doug, you might want to do searches on this forum and maybe some others where wedding photographers post, about Canon digital and E-TTL. Also, if you're not familiar with the photonotes.org/articles/eosflash site, go there and read about E-TTL and digital. Some wedding photographers have been using the Metz 54MZ3 in auto mode (with the Metz adapter it also does E-TTL) or old Vivitar 283/285 in auto mode (with a Wein safe-sync) because of inconsistent flash exposures using E-TTL with digital. There are multiple posts in the Canon forum right now about this topic. I don't use digital, but I have Canon film equipment and Metz flashes, and when I use 35mm alongside my medium format at weddings, I use the Metz in auto. I recently tested the flash/camera using controlled situations and a gray card and determined that the camera's E-TTL was off by 1/3 to 1/2 stop under and was very biased to what was directly under the active focus point. This is not news to anyone familiar with Canon, and is what you will find in the photonotes article. Best to make the decision about using E-TTL before spending a lot on equipment.

[twmeyer]

If I understand TTL correctly, it's success is contingent on software interpreting the reflectivity of an "average" piece of film and adjusting the flash unit's output based on the amount of light that reflects off the film into the TTL sensors during a flash exposure. <p>I know that my SB28 worked pretty damn well with the F100 and the N80, but when I set it on a Fuji S2, I was better off using manual. Since I've changed to the Lumedyne Auto Module, my rate of success with candid flash has increased exponentially. One of the best wedding photographers I know uses 283s and Metz CT60s on auto with his Canon D1 instead of TTL. <p>I think the reflectivity of a CCD may not be (and I use that word "may" advisedly :^) the same as film. Hence the inconsistent exposures with high dollar TTL flashes that weren't made for digital cameras. Has anyone had these problems with the newer, digital-specific flash units?.. How's that for a theory?... t

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

As I recall, the problems with the Canon E-TTL flash stem from the connection between the metering and the focus point selection. I think that if the center AF sensor is manually selected the problem is mitigated. There have been several threads on the www.robgalbraith.com Canon forum related to this.

[picturesque]

Go to the Canon forum and look up the thread, "Anyone Want a 10D". Also, Tom, E-TTL doesn't use off the film readings (or off the CCD)--it has it's own sensors in the camera which are tied to the focus points. No one can really explain (at least I haven't heard any that make sense) why the inconsistent exposures with digital. Even with film, E-TTL is very finicky. I have read on various forums that with the 10D, E-TTL uses focus points to bias flash readings, and also the contradictory statement that it uses a center-weighted metering pattern. Which is true? ??? I read on the robgalbraith forum, in an answer from Chuck Westfall (a Canon representative), that one can trick the camera into using the whole frame (all metering segments) in an averaged way by using custom function 4 to transfer autofocusing to the AE lock button, because if the camera thinks you're using manual focus, it will meter flash that way. You'd have to keep your fingers off the buttons before releasing the shutter. I personally don't like E-TTL, even for film, at weddings because you have to shoot too fast to carry out flash exposure compensation for everything you shoot (focus and re-compose is a no-no with E-TTL). I'd try shooting fast (not on a real wedding) at a less important event with E-TTL to see if you can live with it. Also check out smartshooter.com. It has some lessons about shooting with digital at weddings that I found interesting.

[picturesque]

Oops, I meant flash exposure lock, not compensation, above. In fact, one should use compensation, and I use it with auto flash (thyristor) but auto flash is predictable, and I have found E-TTL more erratic.