Nature Theatre of Hebron

[john_perkins2]

Rob. Yes we met in April 2002 at the Tobasco. Clem misses you. I'm currently doing a piece on taxidermy in the West Bank. Looking forward to going home, eid al fitr is tiring, and my camera is semi-boken.

[nesrani]

John - give my love to Clem and that bugger Ashraf at Tabasco when you see them. Cheers.

[asher]

Frank... <I>"Israel won"</I> ????!!!???<P>

Dozens of UN resolutions comdemning Israel. None condemning the PA.<P>

Thousands of Israeli civilians killed, injured or with shattered families.<P>

The Israeli economy is in a shambles, despite what Rob says.<P>

On the verge of giving up more land for "peace", yet again, with little hope of actually

receiving ever lasting "peace". <P>

Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once said that there will be peace when they

(the

Arabs) love their children more than they hate us (the Israeli Jews). When the PA stops

sending in

teenage suicide bombers, then both sides will have won.<P>

Until then all have lost and

will continue to lose.

[asher]

Thousands of Israelis vs. thousands of Palestinians. The "ratio" is irrelevant.<P>

Israel has blinked quite a few times since 1948, the most recent being under the

leadership of Ehud Barak in 2000, in which Arafat was offered full control of ~98% of

the territories, including the parts of Jerusalem that were/are of interest to

Palestinians. The price- peace with Israel and recognizing Israel's right to exist- was

too high for him and he thus led the Palestinians down the dead end in which they

AND the Israelis are currently stuck. So, in essence, I agree with you- it's time for the

PA to compromise and to *mean it*.

[edward_zimmermann]

"<cite>Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once said that there will be peace when they (the Arabs) love their children more than they hate us (the Israeli Jews).</cite>"

<P>

But as long as the birth rate continues to be the highest in the Arab world and the rewards for the family of suicide bombers is higher than the job their children won't get.. as long as religious and political leaders push for the cheapness of life. Hardly enough to feed and house one or two children, its 8 or more. Children are the weapon. Just as throwing children in poverty and teething them on hate.

<P>

<A HREF="http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part1.html">PA Indoctrination of Children to Seek Heroic Death for Allah </A>

<P>

"<cite>When the PA stops sending in teenage suicide bombers, then both sides will have won.</cite>"

<P>

That's apriori making the assumption that Palestenians want to live in peace.. Even over 20 years ago, traveling around Gaza, West Bank and throughout Arab villiges I found, unfortunately, little to substatiate that assumption.. and as economic conditions have significantly declined.. the hate has gone beyond rage..

<P>

<blockquote><cite>"Of course Shahada is a good thing. We don't want this world, we want the Afterlife. We benefit not from this life, but from the Afterlife... The children of Palestine have accepted the concept that this is Shahada, and that death by Shahada is very good. Every Palestinian child aged, say 12, says 'Oh Lord, I would like to become a Shahid'.</cite>"<P>

[PATV, June 9, 2002]

 

 

 

</blockquote>

[vic_.]

While people on this thread could argue endlessly that Israel is a Jewish version of the Third Reich, complete with concentration camps, what I find ironic is that Rob Xinbad and other photographers were able to photograph these scenes without losing their lives. Try photographing the repression of Pinochet, Mubarak, the Hashemite Jordanian Kingdom, the Saudi Kingdom, the Kuwaiti Emirdom, most African/Asian/Middle Eastern/South American democratic dictatorships, or any other regimes. I think not. This dramatic essay by Mr. Appleby demonstrates man's inhumanity towards man, and one is left with the feeling that Israel is the only bad nation on earth. These other nations I mentioned are not looked upon in such a bad light because there are NO images coming out of them. A picture is worth a thousand words, and not having any pictures seems to mean that nothing bad takes place.

[nesrani]

I'm beginning to notice a bit of ... bias ... in this thread. LOL.

 

Most of these arguments are totally specious - the generous Barak offer, Land for peace, etc etc. But there is no point arguing it. No doubt Robin Smith will now say that these fantasies are based on an unbiased understanding of the facts.

 

Interesting that the people saying this stuff are all called Zimmermann, Yoni, Asher... I suppose that is proof of their objectivity!

 

Enjoy yourselves, children. There _is_ a real world out there somewhere.

[edward_zimmermann]

"<cite>..beginning to notice a bit of ... bias ... in this thread.

LOL.</cite>"

<P>

Why not be clear in your language and say "<cite><strong>Jews</strong></cite>"? That's what you are thinking, right?

<P>

"<cite>Interesting that the people saying this stuff are all called Zimmermann, Yoni, Asher... I suppose that is proof of their objectivity!</cite>"

<P>

Reminds me of when I crossed the border in Poland with my father in the 1980s. The border guard examined his US passport.. turned to its entry for place of birth: Poland.. He looked to my father and grumbled in Polish: "<cite>David. That is NOT a Polish name</cite>".

[nesrani]

Because, fortunately, not all Jews are quite so "biased". To tell the truth, I've never been in a more racist country than Israel, but I have been fortunate to work with and know many Israeli Jews who don't share those prejudices.

 

BTW - the only time I ever heard the words "Hitler" or "Nazi" in Hebron, were in the mouths of settlers and soldiers. But even there, there were many honourable and open-minded soldiers who impressed me with their humanity and sense of justice.

[edward_zimmermann]

"<cite>Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.</cite>"

<BR>

Haj Amin al-Husaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, 1944

<P>

<HR>

<P>

"<cite>Our fundamental condition for cooperating with

Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew

from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an

explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish

problem in a manner befitting our national and racial

aspirations and according to the scientific methods

innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The

answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours."

</cite>"

<BR>

Memoirs of Haj Amin al-Husaini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

<P>

<HR>

<P>

And today? Rahman Abdul Rauf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, the nephew of Haj Amin al-Husaini (known "popularly" as Yasser Arrafat), has time and again openly venerated his Uncle's path...

<P>

<HR>

And the current Mufi, Ikrima Sabri?

<P>

<P>

From interviews:

<P>

"<cite>Six million Jews dead? No way, they were much fewer. Let's stop with this fairytale

exploited by Israel to capture international solidarity. It is not my fault if Hitler hated

Jews, indeed they were hated a little everywhere.

Instead, it is necessary to denounce the unjust occupation endured by my people.

Tomorrow I will ask John Paul II to support our cause. </cite>"

<BR>

La Republica, 24 March 2000

<P>

<P>

<P>

<B>Die Welt</B>: <cite>In your July 2000 Fatwa you declared: "We insist on the Right of Return for all the 1948

refugees and prohibit them from getting compensations for [the loss] of the Holy Land, for it has no

price. What are the borders of this Holy Land that you refer to? </cite>

<BR>

<B>Sabri</B>: <cite>From an Islamic point of view, it stretches from the Mediterranean to the Jordan [River]. It is Palestine in its entirety.</cite>

<BR><BR>

<B>Die Welt</B>: <cite>And there is no place for the Israelis? </cite>

<BR>

<B>Sabri</B>: <cite>For the Jews who lived here before, there will be a place, of course. But all those Jews who came here from all over the world, must return to the places from where they came. The Jews from Germany should return to Germany. (laughs) After all, you like them so much, don't you?</cite>

<BR><BR>

<B>Die Welt</B>: <cite>Does this mean, that there is no place here for a Jewish state? </cite>

<BR>

<B>Sabri</B>: <cite>I didn't address this issue in my Fatwa. All I said was that the refugees must return. I didn't say anything about the borders.</cite>

<BR><BR>

Exerpted from an interview published in "<cite>Die Welt</cite>" (a mainstream German news daily), 17 January 2001

[nesrani]

Edward, there is, lamentably, plenty of antisemitism in the world. That does not mean that all criticism of Israel (a national entity, not "the Jews") is antisemitic. However, I think we've reached the end of this thread.

 

Thanks to everyone for their interest.

[cd thacker]

What about the <a href="http://www.eccmei.net/j/online.html">Jews for Palestine</a>? Maybe they deserve a mention before the thread ends.

[cd thacker]

A better link might be <a href="http://www.eccmei.net/~eccmei/j/orgs.html">here</a>.

[edward_zimmermann]

"<cite>Edward, there is, lamentably, plenty of antisemitism in the world. That does not mean that all criticism of Israel (a national entity, not "the Jews") is antisemitic.</cite>"

<P>

Clearly. And there is enough to be critical about--- and a political and social system that not only tolerates but also encourages critizism and open discussion. The current Palestinian leadership's message is little different from those of the Mufti. The target is not soldiers but civilians. The means is terror and the modus is bombs against civilian targets (restaurants, discos, Synagogues). The enemy is not Israel but jews. The urge is genocide. There is an opposition in the PA managed territories but the oppression of any dissonance to "established" edict is brutal. As in fascist Germany of the 1930s you don't want to be seen as a "Zionist Lackey" or "Jewish Spy".

<P>

Some months ago I was again in the Mediterianen region to try to get some movement on information cooperation and development throughout the area. I spoke with some of the many Palestinian students about the hopes for peace indicative of the naming of Mahmoud Abbas as Premier. Some called Abbas a traitor but many said he was a clever ploy of Arrafat to distract, to sabotage and subjugate any movement towards an end to violence and the acceptance of partion. The overwhelming message was that Abbas had no power and no mandate... and so, Months later Abbas goes..

<P>

A good friend also did the Haj this year. We would often over the nearly 20 years we have known one another have heated discussions on the Israel-Palestine conflict. He was a outspoken advocate of the "right to return" and supporter of the "Intifada". Upon returning he called me on the phone "<cite>I saw the devil</cite>" he cried. He added that the mob was worse than in even the least of my non-sympathetic postions.. and said "<cite>to let Arabs 'return' is to invite a bloodbath, life does not matter, just the thirst for blood and death</cite>". He found a mass in a frenzy dreaming of genocide.. and not even about Israel.. but to kill Jews.

[nesrani]

Can't help you with your paranoia, Edward, sorry.

[eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331]

Rob: Brick-wall. Head. Banging.

[nesrani]

Indeed.

[robert_clark]

Not quite Rob. These are good photo montages that show well your main contention that this is a sort of theatre of the absurd. As you know I'm in my mid forties, and I can't remember a time when we weren't treated to our nightly/weekly look at what's happening in Palestine. Needless to say there have been ups and downs: ceasefires, peace movements, assassinations, Camp Davids and the ebb and flow of various Prime ministers and US Presidents. As a number of contributers have pointed out, they have done little to alleviate the attrition, bitterness, hatred and suffering.

 

I have never been to Palestine, so can only speak from the perspective of a long distance spectator. It is interesting to me how much you emphasise the 'performance' aspect of it all: for this is what it seems to be when watching the news or reading reports - an endless performance where every death is pored over by an ever-present and obliging media.

 

You also describe a situation which seems to be an uneasy (but long established) blend of a few humanitarian/liberal values (allowing journalists to be there, who are 'generally' safe; allowing some criticism etc.) and a nasty, selfish brutality on both sides (the more familiar aspect of war). Is this the essential mix that makes it all so endlessly coverable?

 

I certainly do not want to diminish the atrocities that are carried out, nor the suffering that has taken place. Nor would I want to undermine the interesting speculation behind the motives for all parties (including the US) for perpetuating this grim impasse. Yet I do wonder why it has become such a media event.

 

There has been far more death and injustice in many other places in the world - some have already been mentioned - but also spectacularly less media coverage. We do not get nightly bulletins on the plight of the Tibetans, for example, even though they have also been murdered in their hundreds of thousands and their culture has been ruthlessly and systematically destroyed - even though the Chinese government to this day is intent on outbreeding them into irrelevance and repressing any sign of political, cultural or religious autonomy.

 

Yes, it is much easier to get cameras and photographers into Palestine than into Tibet, but can this really be the only reason why this theatre runs on and on? I think not.

[robert_clark]

The 'not quite Rob' referred to your sensing it was the end of the thread - too many posts in between!

[nesrani]

Edward, it is so easy to find quotes to support a position. Maybe you'd like to see a few examples of Israeli hate-speech about the Palestinians:

 

1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

 

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

 

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

 

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

 

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

 

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

 

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, June 15, 1969

 

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

 

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

 

9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

 

10. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

 

11. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

 

 

Unfortunately, while the paranoia and hate continue - and they show little sign of slacking - the ME problem will continue.

 

Robert - I think it a central confict not numerically, certainly, but because of its strategic importance. And also because Israel, which conceives itself as a European country in the ME, exemplifies the worst (in certain sectors of its populace) of European/colonialist thought. This conflict is a monster we have created, and it shines back at us. We are dazzled by our own reflection.

[h._p.]

The trouble with the Israelli-Palestinian conflict is that there are psychopaths a-plenty on both sides as Robert and Edward have shown. There's no hope of any settlement until someone actually does something positive - such as the Israellis pulling out of the West Bank completely and handing back the settlements to their rightfull owners or the Palestinians making a decision to stop the vicous and ultimately pointless suicide bombing campaign - preferably both.

 

Unfortunately, it won't happen. In these situations the lunatics invariably take over the asylum while the huge numbers of good people on both sides look on wondering what in hell (and I chose my words carefully here) they can say to get through to the madmen.

 

The only thing that will stop them killing one another is (a) running out of bombs and bullets or (b) someone with a seriously big stick invading both countries and giving them someone they can both hate. I shan't hold my breath pending either of these events.

[Allen Herbert]

such as the Israellis pulling out of the West Bank completely and handing back the settlements to their rightfull owners or the Palestinians making a decision to stop the vicous and ultimately pointless suicide bombing campaign - preferably both.

 

Good thoughts,Harvey. However. the 'interest groups' on both sides, well, it would'nt be in their 'interests' would it! That's what it's all about really...otherwise it would be stopped very quickly.

 

It's all about greed and and gain, especially for those who will gain the most.

[vic_.]

The problem with these world problems is that most people just don't care. All the jawing going on here is well and good, but the high IQ types here cannot influence popular opinion. Why? Because most people don't want to think. They just want to be entertained. They want their news in sound bites, making it easy for Nazis like Karl Rove can control a nation.

 

Probably the most impactful photograph in next year's elections will be the one of the draft dodging president Bush in the flight suit, with the silly cod piece and helmet, doing his goofy Top Gun routine aboard the aircraft carrier with the banner "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" in the background. Film sure isn't dead.

[cd thacker]

<center><img src="http://www.rachelcorrie.org/racheladpic_files/image002.jpg" width="356" height="396"><p><a href="http://www.rachelcorrie.org/news.htm">Rachel Corrie</a></center>

[nesrani]

Ha! It's taken a while for her name to pop up. Despite my reservations about ISM, her death was deplorable and probably avoidable.