k_t1 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I used to attend the forums alot, but these days I can't read or respond to a post without having my brain explode.I joined up back right before all the digital stuff. Now almost every question (eos forum) is about, "can I use this flash on the digital rebel" "will this lens work on xx camera" "can I mount X brand lens on my camera". Everything from mundane questions that can be answered by a simple search, to equipment anomolies to camera comparisons. Its all the same, just replace the last model with the current model. I admit I've answered and asked similar questions, but its just so redudent now. Maybe I'm just ranting a lot now, but I'm just gonna stop posting/responding/or reading the site for a while and see how things are down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis_vener_photography Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 You have put your finger on the big problem with these types of forums.: too many people are unwilling to think for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 The problem is that it's impossible to cater to an audience made up of rank beginners who barely know what a camera is and seasoned, experienced photographers, while keeping both camps happy. Since there are more rank beginners - and there's a seemingly endless supply of them - they pretty much win. If and when they become experienced and stop asking repetitive questions, someone else will step into their place. There's no real solution. I could spend half my day weeding out the repetitive beginner questions and directing them to the archives, but then I'd have to ask the question whether it's worth my time to do so. It's not like I'd have to do it once, I'd have to do it all day, every day, forever, and so would moderators of all the other forums. Moderators do weed out some questions, but always "after the fact", i.e. after they have been posted and received answers - and you've seen them and been annoyed by them. I actually throw out some really bad "questions" before they get seen from the archived forum staging area, though that's pretty rare. It's a perfectly legitimate complaint. I don't know of any solution but to start your own forum somewhere and hope only seasoned photographers join. Usually such forums fold for lack of traffic - either that or they become popular and suffer the same fate as photo.net! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_merrill Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 K T, I have noticed that some forums do not act like this, usually the forums that have a bunch more banter between members (leica forum) or say the philosophy of photography forum that just plain takes more time to read. I have noticed on bigger equipment oriented forums like the canon or camera equipment forums, that people just don't want to take the time to search. There are some good threads that start up, but it takes a bit more searching to find one. I personally have to stop getting involved in "what is the best slr" threads or stuff like that. I tend to be a bit too abrasive and people really get mad. But, seriously, how do you answer a question like that without a joking reply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel flather Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 But if they think, how will they ever decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 What? Explain to me please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustinhenry Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Yes, Daniel. Explain this to Carl, or am I going to have to post this question in the Not-Archived forum AND the Archived forum in order to get an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissa_eiselein Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 KT: I feel for the newbies that come here to seek a little help and instead get slammed with hateful responses. Then again, I'm also sick of the same old questions and answers. There's not a day that goes by when I don't see a series of complaints...complaints about posts, complaints about moderators, complaints about ratings, complaints about accessing the site and complaints about people who complain. What we need is a conversation starter. I have an idea, but I doubt that anyone will pick up the ball and run with it. I'd like to see a few more experienced photographers start an ongoing Photo.net workshop. I know, I know...there's archives, google and an assortment of online information...but I'm talking about a workshop where there is a subject, an instruction, then a sharing of related ideas. It might be the same old stuff, but so are all the static questions. At least this would be a fresh way of getting a group on the same page of discussion. And some of us newbies might even pick up a tip or two and quit being such pests. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normusarms Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I am a lazy pest, I love photo.net it gives unlimited access to all. Elitist, the I know something you dont know idiots and my way is best people, eat your heart out, the info is out there. Yes the same ground is covered over and over again, its reassuring to know the interest is out there. If information is not readily available for lazy pests with bad short term memory and limited intelligence it is eventually lost to room 101. If you don't want to read all the blurb, just dont read it, do you read all the same advertisements when you pick up a newspaper. I think not. What's your problem? I find photo net a usefull resource and I am about to make my annual contribution, I may be lazy pest but I pay my way. Photo.net forever Norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark lucas Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Popphoto.com has a beginners, no question too small category - an idea perhaps? I'm more worried about the posters who have just bought a 10D, insist on calling it a D10 and still ask what an aperture is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottershead Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 We might have a "Basic and Shopping (i.e. Repetitive) Questions" forum for the what camera should I buy? which lens is better? or is X compatible with Y? questions, but I don't know if beginners would (a) realize that their questions were basic; (b) find the forum. Nor is it clear that anybody knowledgable would answer, apart from (repetitively) telling people to read the archives. I would characterize the "problem" a little less disdainfully than Bob. People asking the basic questions for the most part are sincere, and for the most part want the answer. Asking the question is easier than searching the archives to see if it has already been asked and answered. People follow the path of least resistance and if searching the archives were easier than asking, people would search. I think this behaviour is completely natural and reasonable and is not to be disdained or scorned, and will only end when there is nobody willing to answer the questions. After all, "Search the archives" is not a basic moral imperative taught by mothers along with "Share your toys" and "Be nice to your little brother". But the person asking the basic question is seeking information and is not seeking to launch a conversation likely to interest people. There is little in these questions to interest more advanced photographers, although the questions do provide the opportunity to be helpful, which is a kind of pleasure too. Forums tend to have questions posted by people looking for basic information intermixed with questions posed by people looking to start interesting discussions (or arguments) and these are somewhat at odds with each other. The basic questions tend to be much more numerous. (I notice that the Leica Forum tends to have more of the interesting discussion/argument genre of questions, but it also has more banter between the regulars.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Improve the interfaces to reflect the changing demographics of the site. Make links highly visible. Compartmentalize - ie make it clear that different areas of the site are intended for different levels of photography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs chua Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Here is my view of photo.net. I had known about photo net for a long time. Only joined after I purchase a digital. I have always as is still regarding PN as an art gallery. In fact it's more than an art gallery to me. It's a window to the world via it's citizens' eyes, warts and all. I would sit for hours viewing photos upon photos, not so much for the artistry and orginality (although I do enjoy viewing them) but more so to 'see' the world. It doesn't really matter to me a photo is not composed per Ansel Adams' technique. All it matters to me is the photographer new and uniformed of the basic techniqes of photography or a professional purist took the trouble to share them with me. I see every photo in PN as a expression from it's photographer. A vast majority will never make it to be a professional, if they do I don't really expect them to post them here. Me include, I will most probably retire on my day job. I post because I want to share what I 'see' of the world around me with fellow PN photographers. Critiques are useful but not the ultimate purpose for my been on PN. The ability to view the world through the eyes of others and to be able to post my view less than 2 hours of the actual event is an adrenaline rush I look forward to daily. Some will say go watch Discovery channel. DC is way too perfect and sanitise. PN has the both 'low downs' and 'eagle soaring' photos, just what a typical real life is all about. If I do get good comments it makes my day. If I get bad comments I assess the validity of them and take note. I don't have to agree and I don't take offense. If I don't and if the view count increased since last login I am glad someone 'saw' my work. p/s one actually email me from the shores of Lake Superior to thank me for a photo I posted. The photo wasn't great, it was a typical touristy photo. This gentlemen was only surprised by the fact my country had such architecture. I had given him a view of my world he did not know about. It did not really matter that he did not tell me, why he found the photo interesting to him. All it matters was the photo I decided was interesting enough to share it on PN caught his eye and he took the trouble to request my email from PN and email me he find it interesting. Know what? He didn't rate it .. but his private email made my day of all days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustinhenry Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 <b><i>photo.net is more than I can bare now</b></i> <br><br>If you're any more bare, we'll be seeing your birthday suit KT! But please, bear with me, it's 7:30 in the morning and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet! <br><br>I just HAD to point out that grammatical error...it was eating me up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark lucas Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I thought it was going to be another complaint about nudity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normusarms Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Brian, well said, nice one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_henderson Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 As somone who probably looks at Photo.net at some point on maybe 250 days a year, this isn't an issue that bothers me greatly. It's a bit like going into a store- I know when I go in that I'm going to see a lot of stuff I don't like or don't want, but I value the place based on its ability to give me what I do want not on the incidence of things I don't. I don't expect to find most PN questions interesting, but I do try to access the site in a way that it's easy for me identify threads I might enjoy or wish to contribute to. I share the view that its pretty difficult to get people to search rather than post a question. In any case it's not difficult to resolve the issue if it is irritating a lot of people. Now that there are lots of forums it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that moderators review new questions before they go up. A standard email of "look in the archives and this is how" to those asking repetiitive questions. I suspect however that Photo.net wants to be seen to be a busy site and so acting to reduce the volume of forum questions might not be on the agenda. Far more irritating to me, and much more difficult to control, is the fact that many of the postings to a thread are made without reading the replies made previously. That does often create major repetition, difficulty in introducing a new perspective to an issue and spoils some threads that are interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxz Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Today the web based forums have taken over the role of Usenet groups, but unfortunately the practices of how to use the forums has not followed over from Usenet. Most large trafic groups had a FAQ and the netiquette stated that you should look through the FAQ before you asked a question in the group. You were also encouraged to start out as a "lurker" (just reading for a while before posting), to get the feel of the groups level. Of course this do not work all the time but a well-structured FAQ beats searching the forums. Perhaps it is time to start collecting material for forum specific FAQs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 The forums were intended to generate their own FAQs via the archives. That's why posts were archived and a search function provided. <p> Brian said "<em> People asking the basic questions for the most part are sincere, and for the most part want the answer. Asking the question is easier than searching the archives to see if it has already been asked and answered. People follow the path of least resistance and if searching the archives were easier than asking, people would search</em>". <p> I'm not so sure people would search if it were easier. It's pretty easy now, but even if it were easier, people still want feedback and validation. They want a response to <em>their</em> request, not some generic, anonymous question asked last week, last month or last year. They want personal contact and they perhaps want the opportunity to enter a dialog. So even with the worlds best search engine, people will still prefer to ask "What should I buy?", "When will Canon replace the EOS 10D?", "What's the best film for horses in Italy" and so on. Most of the questions are equipment biased and equipment advice, like bread, goes stale pretty quicky! <p> Now this is, of course, no problem for newbie users, but it is a problem for more experienced photographers who, whether it's reasonable or not, get really tired of these simple, repetitive questions. Sure you can tell people to ignore the stuff they don't like, but if you had a newspaper that was full of stuff you didn't really want to read, would you just ignore that stuff and read the few things you were interested in, or would you stop reading it and look for an alternative? <p> I don't think it's possible to properly serve both audiences in one publication/forum. That's why there's "LensWork" and "PC Photo". They each serve their own audience. They don't merge and form "PC Lenswork" in a magazine that covers both 2MP digital cameras and fine art photography interviews. <p> <p> Having "advanced" and "beginner" forums doesn't work well. We tried that back in the USENET days. Beginners don't know they're beginners much of the time, and given the choice of asking a question to a bunch of beginners or to advanced photographers, who are you going to ask? So "what's aperture" gets asked to the experts in the advanced forum because users figure that they'll get a better answer there - and they may be right, <p> As I see it there is no way out of the "problem" of conflicting desires and expectations of what a forum should be. All we can do is to try to strike a balance between providing basic information and not driving away more experienced photographers through bordom and frustration. Some will leave, some will move to other forums (maybe they'll start reading the Large Format forum, or the Philosophy of Photography forum. The fact is that any "digital photography" forums are going to be inundated with simple questions over and over again because of the huge number of users who are starting out with zero knowledge on the subject. <p> Tha fact that traffic in the forums is increasing is a sign that more people think they are useful than think they have become unreadable, and that's at least a good sign. When numbers start to drop, then we have sure proof that there is a problem. <p> It's been said before. You can please some of the people all of the time, or you can please all of the people some of the time, but there's no way you can please all of the people all of the time. <p> <b> If I had a magic wand...</b> <p> These are the things I'd do: <ul> <li>Wave it over the servers to quadruple the speed and capacity, since we're going to need it. <li>Rewrite the forum software to allow users to "vote" on the quality of a thread. <li>Use the user ratings to decide what should be archived and what should be rejected <li>Present highly rated threads with some icon to show they have a high rating <li>Allow users to vote on the quality of a response, and so develop ratings for users based on the quality of their contributions. <li>Write a site search engine (give up on Google) which presented search results on the basis of user ranking <li>Allow users to vote on threads already in the achives, so maybe over time they would also be ranked <li>Allow users to "reject" existing threads, so that with enough "reject votes" they would be purged from the archives <li>Give moderators an overriding veto on which threads should be archived or deleted. <li>Have a forum view which mixed the existing "unified view" format with the "top photos" format and present a list of the top rated threads over the last "n" days. </ul> Obviously, currently these things are impossible. The database drops to its knees on a daily basis due to traffic.Adding in a bunch more database functions for it to do on every forum post would kill it off pretty fast. Hopefully once Brian gets the new servers online this situation should change. <p> Unfortunately, I don't have a magic wand and I don't know if photo.net has the programming resources to do anything like this. If it did I wonder of the effort of doing this would be worth it. In what way would this make it easier to get infomation? It might make a better browsing experience (better entertainment), but would it actually make information easier to get? Obviously if I had a magic wand, I'd do it, but given I don't and it would soak up resources, would it be the best expenditure of effort as far as the site is concerned? I'm not in a position to make decisions on the relative importance of the hundreds of tasks that probably need doing on the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 If I had a magic wand, I'd fix some of the burnt-out highlights in a few of my photos, eliminate the blur where there shouldn't be blur, grow hair where it stopped growing (pretty much everywhere on my head), and meet Naomi Campbell on a desert island. (Sorry Bob, I couldn't resist.) Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 K.T. I think I understand what you mean Having gone thru the 70's with the cool people on the C.B. radios, then watching that genre get eat up by the cretins....(anyone understand that comparison?), anyway... if you need mello~ http://www.fotofanatic.com/ ~ might do the trick...;)...J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajpn Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Is this where I go to find out what an aperture-thingie is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_stanfield Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Although I have been hanging around PN for almost a year now, this is only the second time I've responded in any of the forums. I read the headers of the forms I'm interested in and then read them. I just want to thank all of the veteran PN responders (and posters of great photos) for taking the time to anwser the repetitive questions of "the other people" so I could learn the same things without asking. I have learned more about my camera, darkroom, and general photography from this group in the past year then I have in the past 20 of using any camera. Thanks again to everyone. By the way, what is the 10D going to be replaced with? :-) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.e._sherrod Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I really don't understand why anyone gets so upset over questions even if they are repetitive. These days, cameras are so coplex that a person can spend hours trying to figure out a certain function and never solve the problem. By the time they get to Photo.net they don't want to do any more searching. They want the answer & figure this group of fabulous photographers knows everything (not a bad assumption). Try to show some tolerance, or if you don't like the question, then ignore it. No harm no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Perhaps a forum with is geared in particular to new members or those new to photography would be more suited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now