Rollei Service, a recent update on an ongoing nemesis; Robert White, Marflex, and the whole enchilada...

[Robin Smith]

Duncan

 

Is this true - you buy a car in, say, South Africa and take it to, say, Australia and all warranties are honored? I am surprised but I suppose it might be true. I am not convinced that you can necessarily expect this for camera equipment though I have to say. If Marflex is supported by Rollei USA and Rollei USA is paying out to repair cameras and equipment that were not sold in that country then they (Rollei USA) are losing money and receiving no or little benefit. If the branch is rigorously expected to make a profit by the head office then one can see why Rollei might not like this gray market. It is one thing to have bought a camera from an official dealer, but for a gray import which is breaking their (admittedly perhaps silly) rules - I do not really see why it should be so honored. The question is really more about whether the manufacturer has the right to control its outlets and the price of its product in various markets and maintain price differentials if they see fit to do so. I think the answer is perhaps yes if they think it is best for them and they do not have a monopoly position - if you don't like it, you can buy another make that does not do this. Hasselblad have a good system, but for whatever reason there seems not to be gray market in the US, so the warranty honoring problems seem not to be a problem. The same with Leica.

[glenn_kroeger]

Robin:

 

From a legal standpoint you are wrong on two points... end user purchases are NOT grey market. Grey market specifically addresses importation for resale.

 

Second, manufacturers do have limited rights to decide who can sell their product, but they do not have the right to control the final sale price unless direct sale is the only means of purchase.

 

Legally they can control the use of trademarks, but they cannot prevent individuals from buying worldwide, and they cannot legally prevent import for sale by vendors other than the official importer. Case law on this issue is set mainly by litigation by Mamiya-Bell&Howell in the US.

[duncan_ross1]

Robin,

 

I live near the US Canadian border and cars are often bought in from Canada and imported gray to the USA. Individuals will also purchase a car in Canada for use in the USA, taking advantage of the currency exchange. Warranties are honored. Can you imagine being French and driving to Spain in your new BMW, having it break down and then having to pay for the repair because you didn't buy the car in Spain? Granted, cars are larger than cameras. A camera can be easily shipped for service if need be.

 

If I find myself on an assignment in Paris and I need a new or replacement piece of equipment (Tripod, flash, lens, whatever) I buy it, use it and bring it back. That is reality in the small [and getting smaller] world we live in. This has happened to me when my Tripod was mangled in transit and I had to buy a new one [At a much higher price than in the USA, too!] I hope Gitzo will honor their warranty here if my new tripod breaks while in the USA.

 

Hassleblad has quite an active gray market - check B&H - they list both prices.

[john_c.]

My recollection, from a prior dispute with Marflex, is that Marflex is an agent/contractor of Rollei Germany. And I also recall that the worldwide warranty is valid and enforceable in the USA, which means service on a piece of equipment, purchased anywhere, should be available at Marflex.<p>Glenn is technically correct; anyone can import equipment for their own use without violating the trademark or other rights of the official USA distributor. A camera purchased outside the USA is not "grey" simply because you live in America. It's ONLY "grey" if (1) you buy it in this country (2) from someone other than the USA distributor. However, the only consequence of buying "grey" is that you don't have a USA warranty. In the case of Rollei, you still have a worldwide warranty.<p>It's interesting, though... Rollei USA is not in the same boat as Mamiya USA. Mamiya USA owns the trademark rights to the Mamiya name in the USA, and thus, Mamiya USA can prevent <b>any</b> USA retailer (like B&H) from directly importing Mamiya cameras for "grey" sale. Rollei USA apparently does NOT own the trademark rights to the Rollei name in the USA, since many retailers (B&H, e.g.) sell both USA and "grey" versions. That fact alone is a good indication that Rollei USA is bullying Marflex.

[ronald_l._marvin]

One point that I have not seen anyone bring up, and I'm a little behind on Rollei's current corporate structure, also I might be wrong here, but isn't Rollei USA owned by Rollei Germany? And if it is owned by Rollei Germany - why the problem?

 

I thought that I read a few years back that HP marketing was no longer the importer for Rollei because Rollei was setting up its own import office here. Someone refresh my memory please so that I have it straight. Thanks!

[john_c.]

Well, I just logged on to the State of New Jersey's Dep't of Revenue searchable database, where you can search online for corporate information, but the site is having technical problems. I'll look into this issue, because frankly, the whole thing irritates me, even though I'm not the one affected. I'll post results when I get them.

[john_c.]

Well, here are the results. There are two business entities named Rollei, and one named Marflex. All are separate from each other:<p>7678395000 -DP- ROLLEI OF AMERICA, INC. (FORMERLY INTERNATIONAL INDUSTRIAL REA)<p>0600091884 -LLC- ROLLEI U.S.A., L.L.C.<p>0100154883 -DP- MARFLEX SERVICE CORPORATION<p>�DP� means �domestic profit corporation�, meaning it was incorporated in New Jersey; �L.L.C.� means domestic limited liability company, also incorporated in New Jersey; and the numbers are the tax ID numbers associated with each entity. The next step would be to pay a small fee and get the corporate filings, which list the names of the officers of the companies, and possibly information about shareholders.<p>John Costo, Esq.

[thomas_diekwisch]

31 postings later after 2 1/2 days. Some additional thoughts:

 

1. The number of postings clearly indicates that I have been touching on a number of important issues that are unresolved and of interest to everybody, so I guess it was a good idea to bring this into the open.

 

2. I have sent an e-mail to Bob Shell to have him look at the thread. If anybody could have a good effect then it would be him. By the way, Bob is stepping down as Editor of Shutterbug, so he might be busy with other things right now.

 

3. I have made myself knowledgable in the issue of U.S. customs issues and gray imports. As far as I have been interpreting what I have read so far John is right and my camera is not a gray import. Grey is gray, but I had to learn that those legal papers apparently use "gray import". Thus, theoretically, Marflex should honor an international warranty.

 

4. My original intend was to bring up the issue of Rollei Service in general and in case of purchase in a foreign country. Where to go and what to do. It was probably my fault not to clarify that sufficiently. I was hoping to get some kind of committment from Rollei toward their users here in the US. In my mind there are two separate issues. One is whether Marflex is legally obligated to perform the warranty repair. Even though this might be the case there is the bigger picture of Rollei's concern about their customers in the US and elsewhere. As several of us mentioned above, this is not about a copyrighted $3,50 perfume but rather a several thousand $$ worth professional tool.

 

5. Robert White is truly there for you as a customer - this morning he gave me his UPS number and I'll get the camera serviced via his good offices. So, that takes care of my immediate needs.

 

6. Lastly, though it cost me confusion, I do believe it makes sense to have Marflex carry out the repairs in the U.S. but this would probably not work without legal intervention which I don't have the energy to pursue or intervention by Rollei Germany which would make all the sense in the world to me. I guess most of us love our Rolleis and Rollei products and we want Rollei to be successful here in the States. Personally I just feel that there has been some real reluctance about dealing with issues.

 

Sincerely

 

Tom

[john_c.]

Well, I found some interesting stuff. On the Rollei Fototechnic GmbH site, click on <a href="http://www.rollei.de/en/service/indexns.html">this link</a> and you get the following language: �As the result of consequent quality management, Rollei is the only camera manufacturer with a 3-year-warranty for all products - worldwide.�<p>The email for service-related questions is service@rollei.de. And it adds the following language: �To find the Rollei service partner in your country, please refer to the list of our partners worldwide.� When you refer to that list, you see that "Rollei U.S.A. LLC" is the "service partner". That would indicate that Rollei USA handles the repairs, not Marflex.<p>So let's go to Rollei USA's page. <a href="http://www.rolleifoto.com/service.html">This link</a> directs that "in warranty" cameras be sent to "Rollei Fototechnic" (but lists Rollei USA's address) and that "out of warranty" cameras be sent to Marflex!!!<p>Finally, <a href="http://www.rolleifoto.com/qz35trels.html">this link</a> (scroll to the bottom) states that �Rollei Fototechnic is based in Braunschweig, Germany, with its U.S. marketing subsidiary

in Secaucus, N.J.� The use of the word "subsidiary" seems to indicate that Rollei Germany owns some part of Rollei USA (although probably not a majority interest, given Rollei USA's behavior).<p>Tom, I can offer two sound opinions: (1) you have an excellent legal claim for breach of warranty, based solely on the statements found on the companies� web sites; and (2) I suspect that the reason Rollei USA is wrongfully refusing to repair "grey" cameras, is that they want to foster the notion in the professional photographic community (and they've been successful at this) that people who do not buy from them (with their higher prices for the "USA" edition) will be S.O.L. when it comes time for repair. This is simply a matter of greed. I suggest you pursue them, and let us know the result.

[rapfoto]

I really would love to buy into the Rollei system, but THIS IS the #1 fear I have about them. NO U.S. customer service! Buy retail and your covered, but come on, we're in a world economy now...

 

I hope that they can sort their sea-bag out and get squared away, they offer some really unique and well thought out gear, but without the backend customer support, forget it.

[evan_dong1]

The new management of Rollei USA ( no longer affilated with Samsung) are 3 individuals. The President is Jeff Karp from Rollei FotoTechnic USA (formerly of Samsung 's ownership of Rollei) , Bernard Franke (from Rollei Germany, (The name spelling might be wrong) and last of all, Carmine (forgot his last name) formerly of Marflex. Carmine is the sole repairman who works on the 6000 series while he was at Marflex. Rollei USA is sharing the same office suite with Marflex. I also entertain the thought of selling my Hasselblad system and buy into the Rollei 6000 system. But after reading and also hearing from other individuals who bought into their from overseas, I am having second thoughts. Has anyone spoke with Jeff Karp regarding this issueof "Grey Market" equipment? This whole incident smells of greed and protecting their profits. I look forward to the ongoing dialogue and hope that there is a light of hope at the end of this ugliness. Anxiously waiting for the smoke to clear so that I can buy my Rollei system from Robert White also.

[craig_bishop3]

Three BRIEF comments... 1)After reading of Robert White, I brought up their homepage. Of the 22 product lines featured on the home page, Rollei isn't one. It's offered as a minor line. 2) As discussed earlier, Rollei has recently changed ownership - Based on the string of aggressive marketing programs, the new owners/management is responding to the marketplace. The global marketplace will dictate what Rollei needs to do to survive. (Compare the price of Rollei products today with what they were under the previous 'distribution' arrangement. 3) Marflex comes across as the 'bad guy' in this story. In all fairness, they've done two repairs for me on two different cameras, and in both instances, the cameras were FedEx'd back, and in my hands three days after I called them. Reliable service for Rollei products in the US isn't the issue, it's the warranty! If you livelihood depends on a camera, I can't imagine that anyone else offers better service.

[james_kuhn]

Craig;

 

I think you have arrived at the wrong conclusions in your summary.

 

"1)After reading of Robert White, I brought up their homepage. Of the 22 product lines featured on the home page, Rollei isn't one. It's offered as a minor line."

 

From conversations with Robert White he does approximately 40,000 GBP (about $58,000 USD) a month in Rollei equipment business. I don't think that constitutes 'a minor line'.

 

"2) Based on the string of aggressive marketing programs. . ."

 

Where are these 'agressive marketing programs'? I saw Rollei dumping 6001 bodies with a purchase of another 6003 or 6008i. They (6001)probably weren't selling. And I've seen a "deal" were an 80mm PQ lens is included with the purchase of a body. The PQ is the older version which has been replaced/superceded by the 80mm PQS version. Again, getting rid of old stock to make room for new. Is this what you call 'agressive marketing'? Rollei introduced nothing at Photokina 2000.

 

"3) Marflex comes across as the 'bad guy'. . ."

 

I think Rollei U.S.A. comes across as the bad guy in this situation. Marflex is being intimidated by Rollei U.S.A. forcing them to turn business away.

[braindead]

I can certainly affirm the quality and reputation of Robert White. Although the above post states

Rollei 'is a minor line' for Robert White, RW is Rollei U.K.'s largest reseller.

<p>

I've personally been quite unimpressed by the management of Rollei USA and Marflex; repair

times are slow and communication difficult. Since my initial purchase of a 6008 here in the U.S.,

all further purchases will be through Robert White or other distributors who do not have the

collosssal mark up of Rollei USA. I was able to purchase my 180/2.8 Tele Schneider for 70%

of the U.S. cost.

<p>

The lack of cooperation in repairing equipment with international warranty is a failure of Rollei

USA to grow and support the Rollei customer base. Sure, I've got a local Rollei dealer; they

stock a single body, a single lens, and two camera backs. They charge 10% more (not including

the 8% sales tax) than the mail-order US shops. So is that the benefit of having Rollei USA

around? I'm happy to send my equipment to Germany for repair, thanks. They're faster than

Marflex anyway.

<p>

To Rollei: It's a global economy, stupid.

[j. rivera]

Thomas,

 

I URGE you to investigate legal action. I'm tired of reading about these service issues/grey market BS concerning Rollei/Mamiya/Nikon/Canon et al. Take action!

 

John,

 

What about a class action suit? I don't think it would take much to round up 50-100 people who've been hosed. What do you think?

[duncan_ross1]

An update on an earlier comment I made in this thread: Today I received a very nice technical lens booklet from Birgit at Rollei in Germany. So the information does exist and is distributed to the USA (at least via Germany).

 

I am still hopeful that I will see this system in the next week, otherwise... I have a business to run and will go with something else.

[trooper]

For what it's worth... I've been reading of users' satisfaction with Rbt White as a source and hadn't been aware of them prior to nosing around in the digest. On Monday of this week I ordered a new MF lens from Rbt White, had a prompt message confirming my information and a follow-up telling me they had shipped it. Today (Thursday), I came home and UPS had already dropped off my package. The whole purchase was handled very courteously with sincere, personal email connections and I simply wasn't prepared for the prompt arrival of the order. I'm only adding this as I had some trepidation on my first international order and felt that the experience might inspire confidence in someone making a similar decision.

[kornelius_j._fleischer]

On Feb 08, while being at the Rollei factory in Braunschweig, I took the opportunity to discuss the matter of this thread with Paul Dume, CEO of Rollei.

 

The outcome of this discussion: Rollei Fototechnic is convinced that a Rolleiflex camera and all accessories need to be covered by a worldwide warranty. It is the responsibility of the factory to make warranty repairs easily and locally accessible to the customer of a Rollei product and to pay for that warranty repair. Obviously, some aspects are not perfect yet (as we can see reading this thread) but Rollei Germany understands that they have to work on this issue with high priority.

 

Currently, Paul Dume (and the abovementioned Birgit Rohn) are attending PMA in Orlando as exhibitors. If you happen to drop by, say hello and use the opportunity to let them have your personal views firsthand. They sure also will be happy to hear that you like the Rollei equipment.

[thomas_diekwisch]

Phantastic, Kornelius. Thanks so much. As head of the Zeiss application department your voice carries considerably more weight than that of a simple internet poster like myself.

 

I hope Rollei understands that we are not a bunch of complainers but that there are many more out there who haven't found their way to the forum and are frustrated. On the other hand, by taking serious action in the fashion you described, Rollei has a good chance of regaining market territory. It is hard to understand that a superior camera such as the 6008i hasn't taken over the U.S. market. I am personally convinced that issues such as customer service play a big role in this.

 

I am glad that there was so much positive feedback about Robert White. He is not only the inexpensive alternative. His customer relationship is beyond comparison, always friendly and helpful. As such, he is a true advocate of the Rollei system and I hope his efforts will be adequately rewarded. Robert White in fact is a phenomenon in itself. Over the impersonal internet he has been able to establish a trust and tone that exceeds many phone businesses as well as local dealers.

 

I won't be able to make it to the PMA this year, my travel schedule for the next couple of months is completely overbooked. I hope I'll get a chance to meet Paul Dume and Birgit Ruhn another time, either at another PMA or possibly during my stay in Europe this summer.

 

At this time I want to assure those who are keeping up with this thread that most of us, definitely including myself, love our Rolleis. They are masterpieces of engineering, perfect photographic tools, to get better and more exciting pictures. Everybody here in the U.S. who goes out of their way to opt for Rollei instead of Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax etc. must appreciate the special features of the Rolleis, otherwise the ubiquitous 'blads or Mamiyas would have been the obvious choice. I sincerely feel that Rollei has some kind of responsibility to those who went out of their way to go for the "exotic-extravagant" Rollei system and it looks like that Rollei is starting to take their responsibility serious. This is a good beginning.

 

Thanks to you, Kornelius, and again, thanks to everybody contributing to this thread.

[thomas_diekwisch]

This is just to let everybody know that last week I got my 6008i back from Rollei UK. I have done a couple of tests and everything was perfect. There was a slight delay since they were moving. This does confirm what everybody else was saying, that Robert White has taken care of me as a customer. I am still anxious to hear Rollei's definitive answer to our questions.

[andry_sander]

If any of you will be filing a suit against Rollei USA, count me in ! Rollei USA has the worst customer service for consumers who have spent thousands of dollars on Rollei products. Who cares if they are bought from US or Europe !!!

 

Anybody out there who wants to buy Rollei equipments, please feel free to contact me at drysand@hotmail.com. I sell brand new Rollei eqipments at a lower price than Robert White. For example, ROllei 6008i kit with PQS lens and 3-yr worldwide warranty cost only US$2900.