Film curve shapes

[john_sparks1]

I have an idea in my head for some photographs that show reduced

information in the shadow areas. I don't know yet if the look I want

will come from using a long toe film (i.e. reduced contrast in the

shadows) or by using a short toe film and pusing slightly (i.e. high

contrast in the darker tones quickly falling to black). I will be

doing some experiments, but want to narrow the search a bit. I will

be using 120 film, so suggestions need to be available in 120 (or

220).

 

I know that TXP has a very long toe, are there other long toe films?

What about votes for the shortest toe film available? I think the

look I want needs high highlight contrast so points taken off for a

noticable shoulder, extra points for increased contrast in the

highlights.

[jorge_oliveira2]

T Max 100 (TMX)in Rodinal 1+24 or about. Almost a straight line.

[d_poinsett]

Your ideas seem sound. A long-toe film like Tri-X will easily lose shadow detail if developed and printed to achieve that. Your idea about increasing the constrast will work too but unlike using a long-toe film, you will lose highlight detail as well. Good luck.

[david_goldfarb]

TXP has a long toe, but give it enough exposure and you can push the shadows up the curve, and depending on how you process it, you can still maintain highlight detail, since TXP has a relatively long scale compared to other current films.

[lex_jenkins]

Do you have any examples of the look you're after? I have an idea for a film/developer combination that might work.

 

The oddest looking results I've obtained that seem to fit your requirements were TMX in Diafine in bright, contrasty sunlight. The transitions from Zones II-IV are murky and weird. Then Zones V and VI seem normal. After that the highlights tend to be heavily compressed and suddenly go white.

 

Truly odd. Might be useful for some situations but I've quit using that particular combination of materials.

[john_sparks1]

I don't have any examples except in my head. I can approach this with Neopan 1600 shot about 800-1000 indoors in 35mm. This is a short toe film and underexposed maybe 1/2 stop from its real speed. However, I want to use 120 film (unfortunately Neopan 1600 isn't available in 120) and I want to create this effect outdoors in daylight (I know the indoor lighting is a large part of the effect I'm getting, I just want a similar look but more intense under more lighting conditions if I can). When I've tried underexposing film in daylight, the prints just look underexposed, not the rich shadows I'm going for.

 

Maybe I can describe it better. I want clean and contrasty highlights, midtones a little darker than normal but still looking fairly normal and shadows deep and rich but with reduced detail. Not solid black but with hints of texture showing. Compressed highlights doesn't sound like what I want.

 

Has anyone compared curves of Neopan 400 and 1600? Do they have similar curve shapes?

[avisualemotion]

I can provide you here with two characteristic curves for both Neopan 400 and Neopan 1600. For each developed in Fuji SPD (Super Prodol) and D-76. I am not sure want exactly you looking for but what is unique for neopan 400 is that in low exposed parts it already getting details and shape of curve is not sigmoid. Take look at pictures, you will see also differences in 400 and 1600 where 400 in SPD has the most of this characteristic.

[avisualemotion]

Fuji Neopan 1600 curves

[lex_jenkins]

John, TMX in Diafine *might* meet at least some of your requirements. I've attached a sample from earlier this year, taken when I was starting to experiment with Diafine.

 

While this example illustrates the reason I don't care for this particular combination of film/developer, perhaps it's an effect that someone could use.

 

This was taken in late morning full sun. The EI was 160, which the maker of Diafine recommends for TMX. However as with color slide film bracketing can be useful because N+/- development is not possible with Diafine.

 

If viewed against a black screen you can see shadow detail. But the transition to midtones is so abrupt it appears there is no shadow detail. And the midtones are truly peculiar - note the foliage at right and the rusted chain and hook at left on the table; all nearly white instead of dark green and reddish brown.

 

Dunno if this is even close to what you had in mind. If it's remotely interesting let me know - I have other examples from the rolls of TMX I tried in Diafine before giving up on that combination. At least it keeps the EI down in the controllable range for normal daylight use so you can have greater selection over DOF, etc.

 

BTW, TMY in Diafine is not quite as peculiar looking but still not very appealing.

 

FWIW, Diafine likes Tri-X, FP4+, APX 100, even Delta 3200 and Pan F+ in my experience. With these films, particularly in contrasty situations (full stinkin' sunlight, nighttime under the moon, full-on flash), Diafine just nudges the toe and shoulder around gently to keep negs in easy printing and scanning range.

 

If you don't feel like messing with Diafine, I'll chip in another vote for TMX in something like ID-11, 1:1 at EI 80-100. Deep shadows, rich and funky midtones, contrasty highlights that don't completely run away even in full sun. One of my favorite combinations in medium format for architecture.<div></div>

[barry_kenstler]

John,

 

Now that I've had time to sort through my collection of characteristic curves for a variety of films using a variety of developers, I think I'm ready to tackle your questions.

 

TXP is the best fit for your requirements. It has the longest sweeping toe out there. It was once described as a film that is all toe. In almost every developer invented by man, TXP produces a curve where contrast increases almost uniformly with density(exposure) in the most commonly used portion of the curve. As you have pointed out, it also has the longest density range of any pictorial film. It is a very nice film, but can have very noticeable grain in some developers.

 

There are other films that have noticeable toes. Based on curve data I've seen, in several developers EFKE 100 has a nice, but fairly broad toe and places second. Plus-X has a noticeable toe and APX 100 has some toe too. Delta 100 probably has the longest toe area of the modern flat crystal emulsions.

 

TMX was and probably still is the short toe winner. The flat crystal films appear to be generally shorter toed than the more conventional cubic crystal films. 400TX, which is also available in 120, has a fairly short toe in most developers.

 

The films that show a tendency toward increased highlight separation are TXP, TMY, ACROS 100 (in some developers).

 

Films that have a tendency to shoulder earlier are APX 100, Neopan 1600(35 mm only), and Delta 3200. EFKE 100 can show a long gentle shouldering. Note that slower conventional emulsions such as PAN F+ tend to have a limited density range and shoulder suddenly. PAN F+ shows a fairly short toe in some developers also.