thomas_sullivan Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 ...and then there is <a href="http://staff.fjarmal.is/hakon/photoQuotes/ShowQuotes.asp?ID=25&Name=White,_Minor">Minor White</a>. He does pretty good talking about photography, and just barely mentions even the word camera....let alone what make, model, etc. So, it can be done. Every time i read one of his quotes.........and Aperture's Past Forward book is loaded with them.......man, do I get inspired to grab the camera and go out and shoot.<br><br> Seriously, guys, I'm not dissing anybody here, I just think that there is enough gear talk, and something more akin to White's talk is very needed. And speaking to the total novice (not the seasoned pros who already know this...hopefully), i think it's good thing for them to know that they can do extremely well without the "top" gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Holy Moly, this discussion migrated here too? Grant grunts. Everyone responds. He must be laughing his ass off. I know I am. I recently watched a documentary film on Kubrick. There were many interviews with Directors and DPs about how Kubrick used gear. He started as a still photographer, and his use of gear figured strongly in the formulation of his vision throughout his career. What was intriguing was how much other film directors knew about gear during those interviews. One even mentioned the Noctilux. Yes, I'm sure you start with a vision and then seek out the right gear to accomplish it. BUT you have to have some notion as to what is possible going in. They work in tandum. Kubrick could've dreamed about the look of Barry Lyndon until his head exploded, but without the Zeiss f/.07 lens being adapted to a Motion Picture camera it would have never made it to the screen the way it did. Here's a first hand example. I manage a lot of Art Directors. Ideas and vision are what they do. Junior ADs often know little of the limitations and abilities of both still gear and motion picture equipment. They frequently concieve of things that can't be done and put them in layouts or storyboards. I often use real gear to demonstrate why it is impossible, or will cost a couple of million $ extra to produce. They don't have to know how to do it, just that it can or cannot be done. Equipment experience becomes intergrated into their vision. In every pre-production meeting we have with DPs, gear is discussed as part of fulfilling the vision. Life magazine had specialist that invented gear to accomplish things the photographers wanted to do but were not possible until then. This forum has brought me new insights as to how to accomplish some things I want to do. Sometimes it is simple, like wanting to use the small SF20 flash but hating the harshness, then trying different ways to soften it until I saw Lutz's S-Fill which did exactly what I wanted. Using ND filters on a Nocti to shoot daylight shots with minimum DOF. Understanding the limitations of a rangefinder when focusing off center subjects using shallow DOF, etc, etc. Discussing vision here is ephemeral, infinate and personally biased at best. It's better just shown, and left at that. Discussing gear is finite, directly demonstrable, and relevant to most here due to the gear commonly used (it is a Leica forum after all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 you really dont see the difference between talking about technique of craft relating to the camera, and asking plain and simle questions about what cameras people own? <p> one has to do with ones mindset <i> about </i> photography, the other is just plain vanity. <p> the majority of threads here about camera gear rarely relate to how it is used in the field, but rather talk about technical bullshit.<p> <a href="http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/mseries/testm/MEM90/MacroElmar.html"> here </a> is a perfect example, in contrast to the photo quotes above by <b> photographers </b>. notice in the photographers quotes you guys posted they talk about how the camera relates to their photography. not one says how good a leica is because it gives them great edge sharpness or more lines per mm.<p> knowing your craft is essential, as marc points out. talking about how the camera <i> relates </i> to your photography would be a much more dynamic and fruitful conversation rather than, whats your favorite lens shade or what kind of paint is used on my m-4 because now its peeling.<p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 and you assume most people here don't know that already? your are obviously still in your own world. this is not something profound. when people wants to talk about it, they will, and we will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 oh yea grant, why don't you start a thread on it so we can all really start learning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 im not assuming anything, its the truth around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0068PN"> HERE </a> is a pressing question that has everything to do with photography.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 any thread will do, wont it? <p> besides, you love the attention... <p> ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Like I said, if you start one on it, about lens usage in the field, I'd be the first to contribute. I have in the past been doing that, asking about how to shoot people and how to interact with them and how close to get. Check my past threads. I'd like you to rekindle those memories...would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_alberts2 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 While I can sympathize with the desire to talk more about "vision" aspects of photography, what it really boils down to is that at some point, you need a camera in order to make that vision a reality. Cameras are tools and, like all tools eventually, have become specialized so some perform better than others at a given task. As a friend of mine used to say, "you can pound a nail in with the handle of a screwdriver, but if you can get yourself a hammer, you'll have an easier time doing it." You may have all the vision in the world, but if you need a specific 6x12 back on a view camera that has at least 7cm of rear shift to accomplish it, you're going to talk about cameras that can help you make that vision come true. Sure, there's a lot of fetishism when talking about gear. And yes, for some gear is the end, rather than the means. But the right gear in the right hands can make magic. It allows the vision to become reality, as Marc pointed out. Sometimes gear needs to take a back seat, sometimes it needs to take the lead, but you can't take photos without gear any better than you can play ice hockey without skates and sticks. It all kind of reminds me about Crash Davis' speech in Bull Durham about streaks: if you believe you're shooting great photos because your camera has .01% greater viewfinder brightness, or a .37 fps faster autowinder, or has 12579 zone segments in the matrix meter instead of 12560, then you are. And if trying to find that edge that makes you feel that much better about going out and making that shot, and that edge consists of feeling like you have the absolute best equipment that ever existed, who am I to argue if it works? For that matter, who am I to argue if it doesn't, as long as it makes you happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 If I needed the attention, I'd drag you along...how's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 thats kool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 so are you ready to start one, or you just talk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 since everyone loves quotes, heres one... <p> Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not important. -Henri Cartier-Bresson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 even better...<p> As far as I am concerned, taking photographs is a means of understanding which cannot be separated from other means of visual expression. It is a way of shouting, of freeing oneself, not of proving or asserting one's own originality. It is a way of life. -Henri Cartier-Bresson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 if you have a problem with titles, here's one you can try. It bothered me that I didn't see your contribution in that thread? Or was it stoopid at that time? http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004WNK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 The camera for an artist is just another tool. It is no more mechanical than a violin if you analyze it. Beyond the rudiments, it is up to the artist to create art, not the camera. -Brett Weston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz start one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant_. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 theres plenty of space right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis1 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 sweet dreams grant.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografz Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Come on youse guys. Next you'll be spitting on your computer screens. Sure, there are some threads that are nonsense. I still even answer some because they're either funny or just dumb entertainment. The guy asking about where the R4s was made may appear goofy...but maybe he is concerned about reliability, and has bought into the "German made" is better myth. You don't have to be a Mensa member to figure that one out. There's a lot of humourless folks here also. They take every post at it's face value. That's why a troll can trigger a 50 post response by besmerching the Leica name with some adolecent remark. Hey, are we having fun yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin m. Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 "...just plain vanity." <P> You mean like your name-dropping 'gallery' post from the other day replete with boring snapshots? That was total vanity. Maybe the subject was too near and dear to your heart for you to see it that way, though. <p> If you want to see more discussions on technique, then <i>start</i> some. I'd listen to what you have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 ........?<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Ray I really don't think you need to apologize to Jeff Spirer as he never apologizes to any one else - presumably because he is always right. This is really a dull discussion all of us know equipment is important, but not THAT important. To deny either end of the extreme is silly as far as I am concerned. Yes, I do agree with you though that Jeff's original comment about vision was just plain pretentious. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau 1664876222 Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Some have put forward the notion that "real" artists conceive of their ideas in a vacuum and only then implement those ideas with, well, their implements. Total bullshit. The truth is that the tools can be inspirations in themselves, and in almost all art the tools play a big role in enabling and channeling the creative act. Listen to Jimi Hendrix. If you know something about guitar playing, you can hear him experimenting with his gear all the time, just making a voyage of discovery with his fuzz box, his echoplex or his whammy bar. These were new things at the time, and he was getting enormous inspiration just seeing what they did. We're all lucky he did so, the shit is beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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