Second-Hand 5 by 4 lenses

[jon w.]

Hello, everyone. I have a just bought a Tachihara 5 by 4 field camera,

and am looking around for second-hand lenses. As a novice, I find the

variety of makes and types bewildering. Locally (in Sydney), I've

found the following:

A Schneider Press-Xenar 127mm f4 and a Schneider Symmar 240mm f5.6.

Both are mounted with Synchro-Compur shutters on Linhof Technika

boards (have I got this right?). Both look pretty old, with some mild

scratching on the lens, but perfectly useable, and no other obvious

faults or damage.

Are these decent lenses? If not, what should I be looking for in the

second-hand market instead? Also, the prices seem very high compared

to the figures being bandied about on the website here: about $750 US

equivalent for the 127mm, and about $1200 US equivalent for the 240mm.

(I've also apparently paid over the odds for the camera body, but it's

too late to do anything about that). Does anyone know if the

Australian market normally has higher prices - and if so why?

 

Any advice / comments welcome. I know questions from novices are

tedious, but you do get to show off how much you know.

[rob_barker]

Firstly, questions from novices are not at all tedious - most of us started out in the confusing world of LF by asking questions in here!

 

I would take a look on ebay and see what is available. The prices you quote are very high be international standards. An ideal first lens in my humble opinion would be a Rodenstock Sironar 150mm f5.6 or a Schneider Symmar in the same focal length - considered by many to be "standard" focal length for 5x4. You should be able to get the latest version of these lenses new for about 600 aus $, about half that on ebay if you are lucky and patient. There are a lot of them about.

 

Good hunting!

[ole_tjugen]

Jonathan,

The prices are far too high! They wouldn't be so bad for NEW lenses, but for old, scratched lenses it's ridiculous. Get on ebay! My last buy was a 180mm Xenar in very good condition - at about USD 70.-. Admittedly, it was made in 1928 and uncoated, but it is still unscratched.

 

The 127mm Press-Xenar wil not cover 4x5", I believe. So drop that one at least...

[michael_briggs2]

The Xenar is Schneider's Tessar-design lens. I think it likely that a Press-Xenar is also a Tessar design. Tessar designs can delivery high quality images, but only with normal coverage. They are best used in focal lengths of at least the format diagonal. A 127 mm Tessar-type lens will barely cover 4x5 and may not give excellent sharpness in the corners. It probably won't allow you much if any front movements such as rise or tilt.

 

Both prices are very high by US standards even for lenses in really excellent condition. If "some mild scratching on the lens" means on the glass, then the prices are outrageous. Unless Austrialia has really exorbinant duties, I suggest that you buy from one of the US second-hand dealers that have good reputations in the LF community, e.g., Midwest Photo Exchange, KEH, or new from Badger Graphics.

 

Extremely high prices also appear sometimes in the US. On a recent trip I saw on the shelf of one retailer a 90 mm Angulon with a very high price, about $800, a price that would be high for a Super Angulon. It wasn't even a Linhof model. Perhaps the camera store doesn't know the value of LF lenses, or perhaps they expect that will be able to overcharge someone who doesn't know.

[golliegwillie]

I have to say I find these prices puzzling. I've bought from the Australian and New Zeland marketplace on ebay in the past and have always found that the near 2 to 1 US Dollar exchange rate often makes it extremely attractive to buy from there. Last year I bought a near mint 180mm Symmar from New Zeland for $125. The US dollar however has weakened considerably in the past year, so the exchange rate is now closer to 1.5.

 

Conversely, the weak Australian dollar means that the locals who pay in Australian dollars will pay 1.5 as much compared to the same price in US dollars. For instance, the 180mm symmar I bought would have about $186 in Australian dollars today. Last year however the exchange rate would to about $200 to $225 in Australian dollars.

 

Scarcity probably drives prices higher at Australian camera dealers, but for those prices you still should be getting something modern - like a slightly used Fuji W or even a CM-W lens- definitely something multicoated. From US dealers you still are going to pay 1.5 above the listed US dollar price, but you still are likely to find better price in the US because the greater selection.

[martin_pistor]

Hi jonathan,

just to rebuild your mood a little bit, the 240/5,6 is a lens you`ll probably never replace (if not damaged to much and though the price seems to be high to european standards too). Have a look at www.schneiderkreuznach.com if you are interested in checking the age by serial number, but be aware, that even the 50s and 60s Schneiders are great lenses. 50 years are not the ages in LF as are in 35mm photography. You won`t miss the multicoating in newer lenses much if you care about a proper sunshade, and the real improvement in lenses in the last years is more important for digibacks with some 1 or 2 inches size rather then for negs of 4x5.

For the press xenar, I`d be afraid, circle of image is too small, but just try.

Have fun,

Martin

[matthew_brain]

Try EUROPEAN CAMERA SPECIALISTS

 

http://www.europeancameras.com/Stock_List.htm

 

They go through a lot of lenses and have some wides at the moment at far better prices than you have seen. Also try the Camera Exchange in Melbourne. Good deals can also be found in the second hand market by checking say the Photographic Trader and other second hand sites.

[mike_lyons]

Jonathon,

I agree the Oz prices tend to be on the high side. I'm based in Albany,W.A and have just started on the same journey as you have.I have had no problems with Midwest Photo exchange or (so far) e-bay.

Lenses purchased (90mmsw Nikkor and 135 Sinaron-n) have been in excellent condition and half or 2/3 the price of the same lenses advertised in Australia.When you can find them!

Regards-Mike

[upscan]

Jonathan: in eBay there are several symmar 150mm one with glass and shutter in perfect condition for 1/2 to 1/3 of the prices you quoted.

Good luck!

[colin carron]

Jonathan,

 

I would look at ebay for second hand lenses remmbering that it is'buyer beware' so check out feedback, ask questions and be aware of any import taxes for international deals.

 

The focal lengh of your first lens should relate to the pictures you take. eg architecture probably a 90mm (28mm equivalent), portraits probably a 210mm (70mm equivalent). 'Standard' is 150mm and a good useful lens to start with. I started with an old 90mm Schneider Angulon and have built up from there.

 

Serial numbers for Schneider and Rodenstock lenses can be found on a useful antipodean site :

 

www.bigshotz.co.nz

 

For general LF info

 

www.largeformatphotography.info

 

lenses

 

www.thalmann.com

 

good luck

[brian_ellis3]

As others have said, these prices are extremely high. You're looking at two lenses of considerably different focal lengths so it's difficult to recommend other lenses for you without knowing what you intend to do with your Tachihara (which, BTW, was an excellent choice IMHO for a compact, light weight large format camera).

 

Here are a few things to consider when buying your first lens or two: (1) Uncoated, single coated, or multicoated? Unless you're on an extremely limited budget I'd avoid uncoated lenses just because single and multicoated lenses are so plentiful but in my experience there is little or no difference in most situations between single and multi-coated lenses. Many people think there is a big difference and will buy only multi-coated lenses so single coated lenses can sometimes be a bargain. (2) Widest aperture. The widest aperture with large format lenses isn't generally used to make photographs but it's important because it affects how easy it is to see the image on the ground glass. The wider the aperture the easier it is to see the image but the wider aperture lenses usually will be more expensive and will be larger and heavier than otherwise comparable lenses of the same focal length but with a smaller maximum aperture. However, a relatively wide maximum aperture is more important with wide angle lenses than with longer (150mm and up) lenses. (4) With older lenses it's often the shutter that goes bad before the lens itself so it's important to try to learn as much as you can about the accuracy and condition of the shutter if you're buying used. (5) Scratches on the glass obviously aren't a good thing but if you're on a budget I wouldn't automatically reject a lens selling at a bargain price because of a scratch or two. The significance of a scratch depends in part on which glass (front or rear) it's on and on the number, size, and location of the scratch(es). One or two very small scratches around the edge of the front glass probably will have little effect on the quality of the image. One very big scratch across the center likely will have a significant effect. I've also read that scratches on the rear glass are more detrimental than on the front but I don't know whether that's true and, if it is, why. But any scratch no matter how small should be reflected in a lower price for the lens.

 

I hope this is useful. There's a ton of information in the archives about lenses in general and about various specific lenses.

[jnanian]

hi jonathon -

 

you might also want to check out:

 

http://equinoxphotographic.com,

"mike's place" (at the same website),

http://www.mindspring.com/~todcam.htm

and http://www.KEH.com.

 

some say that KEH pretty much invented the used equipment rating system.

don't be affraid to check out lenses they list as "bargain" - the glass and workings

are perfect, the barrel shows a little wear... i have maybe 3 of their bargains, and have

used them non-stop for 7-9 years without a problem.

 

also remember that on ebay, sometimes you will pay more than you would when

buying directly from a dealer, (with no warrenty &c), mainly because people think they

are getting such a good deal on ebay, that they forget what they can get the same

think from a dealer :)

 

good luck & have fun!

 

-john

[jbq]

Jonathan: I'm in a very similar situation, having just bought a 4x5 myself and looking for a lens.

 

Calumet sells new Rodenstock 135/5.6 and 150/5.6 for US$480 each. They also have the tiny 150/6.3 for US$300. 210/5.6 for US$700 and 210/6.8 for US$480.

 

One other option that you may want to consider is a Schneider 135/5.6 235/12 convertible lens. I've seen one recently go on eBay for US$170 (You need to be ready to have the lens profesionally cleaned in that case).

 

(Personally, I'm considering a new Rodenstock 150/5.6 to get started).

[john_kasaian1]

jonathan, It seems to me that you could get a brand new 150 G-Claron from Robert White in the UK for considerably less! .....Cheers!

[gary_meader]

Jonathan- Lokk at the Schneider 240. Does it have 2 aperture

scales on it? One white the other green? If so, it's a 240/480

convertible and I like mine quite a bit. It covers 8x10 (with no

movements) and in the 480 mode is a nice long lens for a 4x5.

But, as stated, you gotta do your homework on prices. There are

a lot of folks out there just lying in wait for people entering this

field that have no problem taking your money for something you

can't use. Best of luck.

[william_whitaker1]

Jonathan,

 

Yes, those prices are way too high for what you describe. Use some of the references already noted and be patient. Getting in a hurry will only cost you more money.

 

Be aware that a view camera is limited in the longest lens usable by its bellows length. If you put a 12" lens on a camera with a only a 12" bellows, you will only be able to focus at infinity and no closer. As I recall that's the case with the Tachihara (if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected by others!). A 240mm lens is probably about as long as you'd want to go. If it's a convertible, the 480mm cell is too long for your bellows. 240mm is a bit long anyway for general photography on 4x5 in my own little opinion.

 

There are indeed a lot of choices out there and it is daunting, to be sure. But be patient. There's a lot of information, too. Take advantage of it and buy wisely and you'll be very happy.

 

Best regards,

 

Will

[john_kasaian1]

jonathan, You've put a great deal of thought and money into this and deserve a decent lens at a realistic price. Here are some thoughts: 1) Most 4x5 shooters I know start with either a 210 or 150mm lens, except for architecture, which usually go with a 90mm. The 127 mm you'll find are usually off of press cameras like graphics and will give you very limited image circle. This is OK on a Speed Graphic that has limited movements, but would be a dissapointment on your field camera. 2) For the most 'bang for your buck' look at 'sleepers' ---lenses no longer in production, but have a loyal following because they are good designs: Dagors, Commercial Ektars, some of the Wollensaks and Ilex and also the older Schneiders and Rodenstocks. There are plenty of opinions about these lenses in the archives---if a lot of people get the warm, fuzzy gooeys over a lens, it will probably do a good job for you, too. 3) Don't buy a lens thats got fungus, or is scratched or chipped---you simply won't get your money out of it if you ever sell. If you want to experiment, thats fine, but don't accept these flaws in a 'capitol' lens. Light cleaning marks are usually OK, though. If you're looking for perfection in a lens or a mate, you'll be spending all your time looking and not shooting(or mateing) 4) Know thy maximum bellows length. 5) The shutter will make or break you. Unless you're taking long exposures or refuse to spend over $40 for a lens, there is no point with messing with barrel lenses(there are some notable exceptions, but I don't think they apply when you're first getting started!)---and if your shutter dosen't work---you've got yourself a barrel lens. Also, if you've got an older shutter or one no longer in production, like a compur, wollensak, or ilex, get to know a GREAT shutter mechanic. Old shutters probably will never be accurate(new shutters usually aren't either) but they don't have to be as long as they are consistent. A CLA(clean, lube, adjust) will usually get you going again and aren't usually very expensive. 6) If you want a new lens at a good price, look at Caltars, Nikkors, and recently discontinued models like the G-Clarons. 7) Don't worry if your lens is single coated, multi-coated, or uncoated(especially dagors) It really dosen't matter that much unless you're a pro(or can use it to chew down the asking price a bit.) If it does bother you though, get a lens shade. (I can hear the objections being raised, but FWIW, this is my opinion only!)8) If you find a 203mm Ektar in a good supermatic for under $150 buy it! 9) Limit yourself to one lens and one film developer combination until you find that you really really have to make a change. It takes awhile to get to learn everything a lens and a film/developer combo can do. If you begin changing things before you develop your abilities to use what you've started out with, the learning curve gets steeper as your wallet gets lighter! Finally 10) Get out there and take pictures! Good Luck!

[jon w.]

Wow! Lots of useful advice. I must confess that I got my conversion sums completely wrong: multiplying by 1.5 instead of 2/3. So that should have been about $350 for the 127mm and $550 for the 240mm, but even this might be slightly over the odds. Doesn't bode well for my ability to interpret log tables, etc.

 

The 127mm doesn't sound ideal, and I wasn't going to take it anyway, because ideally I want a 90mm, 150mm and 240mm. (I sort of do architectural photography, but of a sort where a 240 might come in handy.) The Tachihara won't cope well with anything longer or shorter. I also photograph mainly at night (and mainly in Venice, but that's another story), so shutters are not critical, but also anything longer than 240mm is going to be unmanageable because of reciprocity failure (i.e. I won't be able to stop it down enough for it to be of any use).

 

If I buy a couple of new lenses, as some comments above suggest, how easy will it be to get them mounted on Linhof boards? Can any Australians suggest where to get this done?

 

Thanks so much for your help.

[jbq]

Jonathan: funny (and interesting) that I'm ideally hoping to also eventually have 90/150/240 lenses (budget allowing).

 

I'm just curious - what kinds of exposures are you planning to make that cause such concern over reciprocity failure? (I plan to shoot Provia and Acros, and Fuji's spec sheet tell me that their reciprocity holds to 2 minutes).

[struan_gray]

There are a lot of good lenses from the 60s and 70s on the

European used market at the moment. Even with the correct

conversion factor, you could buy the lenses you mention for half

those prices here. Insured airmail won't soak up that much of

the difference.

 

If you want to get something good and usable, try MXV in the UK

(www.mxvphotographic.com). They have lots of good stuff at

excellent prices, and I have always found their grading system to

be spot on. There are other dealers (look for UK threads here,

there was one last week), but MXV have a nice mix of large stock

and good prices.

 

If you want modern glass, look no further than Robert White

(www.robertwhite.co.uk). They sell brand name and generic

Linhof boards, and will mount the lens and/or bore the hole for

you.

[jon w.]

Jean-Baptiste,

I have been retroactively taking the advice of one of the contributers above, and generally using the same film for all my night work: Ilford Delta 400. On this, reciprocity failure sets in at 1 or 2 seconds; for an indicated 1m exposure you need about 6m, and for an indicated 2m exposure you need about 15m+. I've never had the patience to shoot longer than this (this is with the film nominally rated at 200, which was my attempt to get something like N-1 zone system development, without being able to do proper tests. In any case, in 35mm or medium format, any further reduction in development leads to unacceptable loss of acutance when the negative is enlarged).

XP2 has a slightly lower reciprocity failure rate (according to my tests: Ilford gives identical figures for both Delta 400 and XP2), and T-Max 400 a lower failure rate again.

Colour negs tend to be much better. I don't know the Fuji films you mention. I use Kodak Portra, because I want lower contrast and saturation, and better detail. The daylight version has no failure to 10s, but they don't recommend using it over that at all. The tungsten film can be exposed for longer (but only up to about 5m), and has much lower failure rates than equivalent B and W films.

Using a 240mm at night at f32+, I'd expect to be working with indicated exposures of 4m or 8m (I know this from experience: Venice is a rather dark and gloomy city, no big sodium lights), which effectively makes it impossible to use a standard B and W film. I actually intend to use Polaroids (Type 52 and 53 if I can find them), which also seems to have better failure rates than negative film, at least according to the Polaroid website.

[Brad Bradley]

Hey Jonathan, this is a bit late but I'd like to weigh in on the question you posted last month. I agree with the previous recommendations about used dealers......"I suggest that you buy from one of the US second-hand dealers that have good reputations in the LF community, e.g., Midwest Photo Exchange, KEH, or new from Badger Graphics." as posted by Michael Briggs. I would add that you could contact Jim Kuehl & Co. Unfortunately, he doesn't list an EMAIL address,515.225.0110 ph, 515.226.0295 fx. You can call him once and he will do the call back, at least in my experience. I was looking all over NY for a simple HASSE lense at a reasonable quality and price level,gave up and called Jim. He took a while but got back to me a few weeks later with the equipment I wanted at a very reasonable price, certainly less than what I would pay in NY. (unfortunately, Suzie, my wife, found better ways to invest the $$:) ) best of luck. Hope I can join you in the ranks of 4X5'ers soon. Looks like fun. Brad