E6 Home processing problems

[donald_davis2]

I currently process my own E6 slides at home. I used to do it quite

often 10 years ago but have recently returned to my photographic

hobby and thus, home E6 processing.

 

Anyway, I have been having a string of processing errors. What is

happening is that even though the film is properly loaded into the

grooves (I use a stainless reel and tank), I have had some

experiences where it appears that the backing is not coming off

completely. It is most common at the center of the film. From what

I have been able to discern, the film is somehow coming in contact

with the layer above it. As stated before, the film was properly

seated in the grooves of the reel and there were not two layers in

one groove. Is it my technique? While the chemicals are heating

up, I place the dry tank with the film into the water bath to

preheat the film so that there is not a big drop in temperature as I

add the first developer. By doing that and letting the film sit in

warm water, could I be causing the film to buckle upwards thus

reducing the gap between each layer? Also, in NE Ohio, we have been

hit very hard with heavy rainfall and it is very humid. The fact

our basement is still damp is exaggerating apparent humidity. Can

the humidity be causing the problem as well?

 

Ok, now if the preheating of the film (NOT presoaking in water)

and/or humidity not the cause of the problem, then any other ideas?

Is it chemistry related? I am using the Kodak E6 single use

chemistry kit. I assume it is the bleach the removes the backing

material from the base side, correct? Do I need to bleach even

longer than what Kodak recommends? Time for manual small tank

processing is 6:00 at temps between 95-104 degrees Farenheit. Both

initial and subsequent agitation is to be used during this step.

What happens if I increase the bleach time from 6 to 7 or 8

minutes? Will this help? Can I rebleach the film even after fixing

and drying to remove the remaining backing?

 

Any ideas would be appreciated. I have done this previously and

have never had any such problems. I would very much know if setting

the tank with dry film in the warm water is causing the film to

buckle or not. Thank you for your time.

[vijay_kumar3]

I think your problem is that you need to practice your loading technique. The SS reel takes a lot of practice to load correctly (something I have yet to master). Of course once you get the hang of it it is like riding a bicycle (so I am told).<br>

Go the B&W processing forum and read up my posting and follow ups on SS reels.<br>

I have processed too many rolls E6 in Jobo tanks with plastic reels and never a problem with film sticking or buckling or anything else. And in the Jobo method you presoak the tank without any chemistry for 5 minutes before you pour the first chemistry. I also do not think humidity has anything to do with it. <br>

If you have succesfully processed more than one roll of film using the SS reels (for B&W as an example), then I do not know what could be causing the problem other than stale chemistry. You do realize that E6 chemistry has limited "keeping time". Especially after it has been mixed.

[donald_davis2]

Vijay, I have used SS reels for some time. I first began E6 processing 13 years ago using the now-discontinued Kodak E6 Hobby Pak. I <b>NEVER</b> had any problems before with the SS reel. I practiced plenty of times with post-dated film given to me by shops that were going to throw it out. I practiced loading in the dark many times, and in light of my current problems, I still do. I did get a messed up reel but I no longer use it. However...I still had some issues.

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FWIW, one can tell by feel as well as sound if a SS reel misloads or not. My last experience which prompted me to post this was a so-called perfect load...or so I thought. And when I unspooled it, it was properly seated in each groove with no instances of two layers in one groove.

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About the chemistry issue, not possible. I am using the Kodak E6 Single Use Chemistry Kit. All 7 of the solutions are one-shot. Also, I mix my chemistry the very same day I process. And my concentrates have expiration dates over a year from now. So my chemistry is always fresh. I was curious if film can be rebleached even after being processed and fixed. I know I am properly measuring the concentrates because I have multiple graduates, some of which are graduated to 1ml. I also have a precision syringe graduated to .1ml

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As I said Vijay, I am just totally frustrated that after 13 years of successfully processing E6 film at home with only a few years absence, for 13 years, why am I having SO MUCH trouble? All I can figure out is that excessive preheating of the film and/or high humidity before the First Developer was my issue. However Vijay, you mentioned Jobo recommends a 5 minute preheat of the tank w/o chemicals. Well, I have been preheating for 10+ minutes while waiting to get my chemicals up to temp. I wonder if that was too long? I guess trying something different will tell.

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I read your postings Vijay. I use Kalt Reels and while they are not the highest rated, they never gave me any problems. I used the same Kalt reel I used back in 1990. It gave me no problems then. this is FRUSTRATING, as you know! I will say this. If I have too many more misloads, I am going to get a plastic reel for my serious slides and just shoot shortdated film and process that on the SS reels. I dont want them to go to waste. But...I am wasting MORE money if my good shots are ruined from film sticking together in the tank...

[dk_thompson]

I'm thinking it's your process...if you could describe a little more about how the film looks, it would make this easier. But, those kits have a one year or so expiration date for the *unopened* concentrates. Once opened, the First Dev., Reversal Bath, Color Dev, and Pre-Bleach start to go bad fast. You can probably get a month tops out of them. If it were me, I'd mix the whole 5 liters up and use it ASAP. You can probably get a week or two out of the kit if you store them right. For one thing, if you mix larger amounts, you stand a better chance of getting the specific gravity right.

 

I'm sorta thinking your pre-bleach, bleach or fix may be oxidized or mixed up wrong. Could be a combination of things conspiring against you too--that's the beauty of E6--so much to go wrong. You need to go back to square one, get some new chemistry and be very conscious how you mix it up. Quit running "real" film until you get the process nailed down. Go out & shoot a couple of rolls of gray cards or some neutral scene, and run those instead. maybe even take one roll to a good lab & use it for reference...but the thing you need to do is to troubleshoot by process of elimination. You seem pretty confident of your loading (and this is a pretty obvious look--a big undeveloped blob on your film). It could be an agitiation problem coupled with chemistry in that it's in the center of the roll? I dunno, can't really visualize this.

 

You can rebleach the film, mix up some fresh bleach and have at it---but the bleach might not be the problem. BTW--you're on the right track with the preheat. I don't think you can overdo it, but if you did, the film would be running hot. The speed would be too high, you'd have to cut down on the First Dev time or cut back on the preheat--the film would be hot, not dark, unless there were other problems going on as well....ahh, gotta love E6, so much fun. Here's a link to Kodak's processing site. The tech manual for E6 is called the Z book. Z-119, you can get most of it online free now. You're not running control strips, so don't worry about all that --use the visual troubleshooting sections. Good luck.

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/chemicals/proLabsMain.shtml

[donald_davis2]

DK, when I examined my slides, densities and color balance was more than acceptable. I saw no evidence of color staining. My issues as previously mentioned are on the backside of the film, not emulsion side.

 

I uploaded a pic for you and others to check out yourself. To me...it looks like the backing is not being fully removed. On the emulsion side, all is well. For most of the images they are still viewable. There is just a bit more density on the area in question. I find it funny that I have never had ANY problems with the E6 hobbypak.

 

I will probably try to increase bleach temp to the maximum recommended temp and go from there. If things are repeated, I will use that Photocolor Chrome-6 3 bath kit and purcahse Kodak's final rinse solutions. I have used 2 litres of the kodak kit so far.

[donald_davis2]

With regards to what I am experiencing, it should be noted that the areas I pointed out are totally random. There is no pattern to them.

[donald_davis2]

SOrry for all the posts in succession, but my mind is not with it tonight. Here is another pic, a better one. This was the most severe instance on the roll. Does this sound like a bleach and/or fixer problem?

[michael erlich]

BTW, opened E6 concentrates last a long time (at least 6 months) if you displace the

air from the bottle before resealing. I use Tetenal Protectan, but you can use Dust-off

or any similar canned lens blower product.

[donald_davis2]

<i>BTW, opened E6 concentrates last a long time (at least 6 months) if you displace the air from the bottle before resealing. I use Tetenal Protectan, but you can use Dust-off or any similar canned lens blower product.</i>

<br><br>

Today, I was thinking about getting a small five to ten pound cylinder of argon gas and using that to displace the air. I figure since argon is both inert and much heavier than air, it would be perfect to displace air. And even when you figure in the cost of a cylinder as well as the gas, I bet it may cost less than canned air or whatnot.

[dk_thompson]

The 5 liter kits aren't the same chemistry as the Hobby Pack, or even the one gallon kits a couple of years ago. Kodak reformulated their chemistry about 3 yrs back or so, and slightly changed the process as well. I'm still thinking your pre-bleach, bleach or fix is dead--or a combination of things....but I can't tell really, I have no idea what your process is like. FWIW-- according to the Kodak Z manual--First developer, Rev bath, Pre-Bleach in "partially filled bottles of used or unused solutions" last for one week. You can get 8 weeks in a full, tightly capped glass bottle. Color developer is the same and Bleach, Fix and Final Rinse are 24 weeks. Go to that link I gave you and look up the Z-119 manual. The section dealing with mixing chemistry will tell you the visual appearances of each step and what fresh chemistry should look like....

 

I can't help you much really, but I think you need to toss out what's left of that kit and start over with fresh chemistry and/or look at how you do the process. One thing you could do is to get a box of control strips, but I think you need to really look at your process one part at a time. I doubt the color balance is as good as you say, if the film isn't clearing properly or density is off here & there.....good luck, again.

[donald_davis2]

Dk, i thank you for the links to the Z manuals. I merely have some manuals on my hard disk but they are more or less mixing volumes. Now from what I determined by reading Z119-2, the storage times you mentioned appear to be for mixed solutions and not the concentrates. But...I still plan to get a cylinder of argon and fill the concentrate bottles with that after I mix a batch. And I never reuse my chemicals. Everything is totally one shot here.

 

The color balance I mentioned earlier was on slides in which there were no problems. In other words, they cleared properly and no backing was remaining. If you looked at them, you would conclude that all aspects of processing proceeded normally. But on slides where there was no full clearing, yes the colors are indeed off.

 

I have never used control strips. Are the cost effective for those that mix their chemicals in small volumes and do manual small tank processing as I do?

 

Well here in a week I will have a roll to be processed. I am going to just try a few things differently and maybe increase prebleach and bleach time a little bit. Also, I will try to exercise even greater care when mixing solutions. And yes, I DO need a grey card, if not only for the purpose of taking meter readings. I am ashamed to say I do not have one. But once again, I appreciate the advice. Upon your suggesstion about the strength of my prebleach and bleach, I am beginning now to think that I did indeed mess something up during mix.

 

If I may ask you one more question, here it is. With my current stock and not fresh chemistry, would it be best to mix the prebleach and bleach stronger or increase the time spent in them?

 

I do miss the hobbypaks and if I have more troubles with a brand new batch of Single Use E6, I think I will just either go to the 3rd party kits like the photocolor Chrome 6 I mentioned earlier, try using plastic reels, or save my dough for a Jobo CPE2 unit that I can find decently on Ebay.

[dk_thompson]

You're right about that table, but somewhere there is one that differentiates between the concetrates and the mixed solutions. I can tell you that we use 1-2 kits a week in an automatic processor where I work,and before that used the one gallon kits. Believe it or not, the 5 liter kits are easier to use....but the chemistry starts to go bad the minute you open those bottles or mix it up. I find it hard to believe that you can stretch out the life, even topping off the containers. We use tanks pressurized with nitrogen and the chem only lasts a week or two...you can also see the soln discoloring in the small bottles that make up the kits as they age, plus it's not uncommon to find chunks of partially solidified chemistry in those kits. The only way to get a good mix is to use the whole thing. The other problem is in contamination--you really need about 4-6 sets of everything you use to mix with. Containers, stirring rods, funnels etc.

 

If you're only doing a roll a week or less, seems like using the smallest 3 step kit makes more sense. This way you mix fresh & have no leftovers. E6 isn't cost effective at all really, for home processing, or at least not in my opinion.

 

I'm still confused though--are you saying there are frames that look good and frames that look bad all on the *same* roll? If this is the case, then yeah--your film's probably sticking. If one roll looks good, and the next is fouled up? Could be your process, with the chemistry mixed up wrong I guess...hard to say, like I said I can't envision how you're running this. You could try to mix up some new bleach and fix and redo that part of the process, but if the chem is bad to begin with, this won't do much good....control strips are great if you have access to a densitometer and know how to use them--but you could do sorta the same thing by shooting test rolls and having one developed by a Q lab, or a good lab in your area--just something to use as a reference for your own process.

[donald_davis2]

<i>We use tanks pressurized with nitrogen and the chem only lasts a week or two</i>

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I always wondered why nitrogen is used so often for that reason? It is lighter than air, will react with substances compared to argon (much heavier than air), and is already present in the air we breathe (the air is 78% nitrogen IIRC). Being a former chemistry student 15 years ago in school, I would think argon would be more practical. Is nitrogen cheaper?

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<i>I'm still confused though--are you saying there are frames that look good and frames that look bad all on the *same* roll? If this is the case, then yeah--your film's probably sticking.</i>

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Yeah, that's basically it. After all, even on the minor cases, the remaining backing is left on the center of the film. Edges, unless the film is in the same groove as another layer, are in good shape. I admit I may have rambled on a bit with my descriptions. But...I <b>KNOW</b> I had a perfect load on one of the rolls! It was confirmed when I unspooled the film. That was why I was wondering if my preheating of the film in the hot water bath was causing it to slightly expand to lightly touch the layer above it. But I will take the advice to cut down or eliminate preheat.

<br><br>

My process is your basic manual tank processing, much like doing black and white films. I take great care to keep the first developer and color developer at 100.4F +/- .5 degrees per Kodak's instructions. My thermometer is inserted into the chemical bottles, but I make sure the tip does not touch the walls or bottom of the bottle. I am sure to use proper agitation of the chemicals. Can extra agitation be used with the prebleach and bleach steps safely?

<br><br>

Anyway, I am going to see what the current batch of chem will do for my next roll. And I will probably send out another roll to National Geographic's processing lab to use as a reference. With regards to the Chrome-6 kit, they do not have the final rinse that even the Kodak HobbyPak did and I had bad spotting. Thats why I plan to use a kodak final rinse. I tried to order the Beseler 4bath E6 kit, but I understand it is being discontinued and nobody seems to have it in stock.

[donald_davis2]

Well I did another roll of E6 film tonight. It was sucessful! No remaining backing or film kiss. The last incident I know I also loaded the reel properly. But here is all I did different tonight.

 

I DID NOT preheat the film sitting in the empty tank by setting it in my water bath. I did increase bleach time by 15-20 seconds. When I got past the color developer stage and was working without the lid, I would pour my chemicals all around the reel and not just in at one spot. I tapped it harder after initial agitation to be extra sure I dislodged air bubbles.

 

So, out of all that, I would guess not preheating the film had the best effect followed by my technique of pouring the prebleach up to the final rinse all around the reel and not just in the center. Color balance is up to snuff as I have a good eye for bright white objects such as a crushed limestone bicycle path.

 

Thank you again for all your help. I KNEW I could get things right but I just needed those with more Kodak Single Use E6 experience than what I have.

[thomas_connolly1]

Hello, I think the principle reason for some of these problems may be the loading of the film on to the reel. You must load the film whether its 35mm or 120mm carefully all the way to the end of the reel. After more than thirty years of using E-6 chemistry, I still sometimes have my film unwind from my plastic reel. The reason for this is that I over agitate the film without realizing it. The film comes into contact with other parts of the roll and as a result, there is uneven development. I am looking for people who process Tetenal chemistry 5 liter kits and learn any special procedures for making the most out of this large kit. thanks everyone, tom