Jeremy Stein Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 No photograph can be "spoiled" or improved by a rating! The photograph presented is what it is; good or bad, likeable or dislikeable, attractive or ugly, exciting or boring... The rules of the site are that photographs, with very few exceptions, are available for comment and rating by all who care to do so. Not everyone agrees that Ansel Adams' works are great, nor that Robert Franks' are either. Everyone on this site may express their opinions of the photographs by ratings or comment or both. That's the way it is, that's what you signed up for when you joined the site, and it seems pointless to rant about it now. If you don't like it, perhaps you should seek a place where your views are held by the management! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacklang Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Good job dealing with a difficult situation Brian. While it's unfortunate that it came to this, something had to be done. I hardly visit to the Top Photo pages anymore because I kept seeing the same photographers with the same types of photos dominating the top pages. Hopefully this whole situation will make people more aware of their rating habits and help curtail abuse of the system. Keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I think we ought to rename ratings <i>weapons of maths destruction;</i> which reminds me - you can have these <a href="http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/">tailor made</a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Maybe every month the system should just reset, then allow a rating frenzy. The top photos in that frenzy each month are gone through by people with common sense and the best is put in a "best of the net" gallery. Obviously don't let folks see before decision time what wins becuase otherwise the solid purple cartoon will get voted on and there will be an uproar when it doesn't win. (an uproar of the insane minority but nonetheless an irritating uproar.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenry Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 100% agree with u Jeremy. Everybody here is here to find out what others think about their works, what others are doing and eventually accept or give rating or/and comments. I am not not sure about the order. It depends... <p>If you think you are too good to get a 2 from `of course a beginner or a crap`, or some negative critic over your picture, from whom, whatever his objective, spent time to look at your picture, I wonder what are you doing here? You think you are a champion, the king of the composition, the son of Nicephore and Ansel if they could meet each other, just because your inflated ego feel comforted by some generous donators, exchanging `WOW`, 6/7, `great catch`, `you hit again`, .... what`s a theater!<p> Robert Fleming used the world of "pathetic", I think he was kind! <p> and I also agree with Jack Lang, Brian has dealt a difficult situation with a good common sense, which seems quite unusual in this kindergarten for diva. <p>People here should accept the rules and the tool, make constructive proposals to improve it if needed and stop crying and retaliate like spoiled baby-child each time they receive a 2 or a negative comment. <p> sometime I really feel that photography is just an excuse here, a pretext, ... the `sideshow` (as I could read earlier on a smart bio), .. the little horror picture show of human comedy... indeed very interesting this little comedy with rating and comments. Definitely not boring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 No, I'm not here to see what some moron thinks about my work. I'm here to share it with like minded people, who can relate to what I'm doing. If you don't like the stuff then go look for a photo you do like. Arrogance is when people think they've the right to tab my photo with their stupid judgement, when I never asked them. Everyone has tastes, so what? What relevance does it have to my work, to be judged by someone who doesn't even appreciate the entire genre I'm working in? Jeremy, I like it here, and I'll say what I honestly feel. In case you didn't notice, this is the FEEDBACK forum. Maybe it's you who needs to seek another place- where everybody follows, and nobody is allowed to speak their mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Near as I can tell, you've been here a whole year, yet you have found only one other person whose portfolio you can relate to, so why not just remove your images and share off line? Seriously. I am sympathetic to some points you are making, but it's hard to get people to be receptive when you use such inflamatory language. I think there are quite a few photographers who have more to give than receive on the photo critique forum. They share inspirational images, give thoughful critiques, and let others make adulatory comments about them. When you hold yourself above the crowd with few others to support your claims, it sounds like every one's out of step but you. I am sympathetic about the genre issue. It would be nice if those who wished to could upload into a specific category and get feedback from other like-minded souls. Unless and until that happens, you are going to have to accept that many raters will look at your images who don't have a clue what your style is all about. Maybe you could give a detailed explanation on some of your images that separate yours from run of the mill versions. Then we can all learn something. . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Carl, I've related to many people here. It's just not a habit I have of going around and sticking numbers on people's photos. I've given several thoughtful comments to people's works that moved me. The only time I can remember being critical of somebody is when they were specifically asking for a critique or feedback. It would seem really strange to me to arbitrarily search photos and see ones I thought were below average, by a person I hadn't a clue what they were about, and place a number rating on it without any explanation. Sorry for the language. It's just that I'm a little testy after finally deciding to upload more than a small sample of my work, and having it receive numbers before I could even finish uploading the photos in the folder! I didn't upload it so somebody doing commercial work and who has never even seen my name could give an impersonal assessment. I uploaded it so that people on the forum I hang out on can have a reference of where I'm coming from when I make a comment. I uploaded it so that people doing simialar things can see what I've been up to. I want to make it clear I appreciate the ability to do that here. I respect the difficulty of your job and understand the purpose of this system. I just can't figure why people who've been photographing for 25 years and should know themselves pretty well by then, and don't have any ambition to be awarded a photo of the week or other award, shouldn't have the option of sharing their work and excluding numbered judgements by strangers. This is just my opinion, of course I respect I have to follow the rules, if those rules are what the general consensus is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_j1 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Brian, could you please remove me from this thread? I selected to be notified when there is a new response, but this is too much and I don't know how to stop getting the emails. Thanks, and I still love the site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_garrick Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 <i>Arrogance is when people think they've the right to tab my photo with their stupid judgement...</i><P>Goodness, had I known this I'd have forwarded all of my comments and ratings to you for your personal approval before I posted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Stein Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Ray, Perhaps you noticed that both of us are free to say what we want on this site and in this thread. I was not censoring you; you may say whatever you wish in this forum. I was pointing out that you joined this site knowing the rules for comments and ratings (if you read the FAQ and if you lurked for a while first). In any case, as you have no doubt already seen, your griping about others rating or commenting on your photos is getting you nowhere. And none of this interferes with people doing similar things looking at your photos and commenting on them. Furthermore, as you said: � Jeremy, I like it here, and I'll say what I honestly feel. In case you didn't notice, this is the FEEDBACK forum. Maybe it's you who needs to seek another place- where everybody follows, and nobody is allowed to speak their mind.� I am not preventing you from speaking your mind, and you are not going to prevent me from speaking mine. And I think you may also already have learned that not �everybody follows� here. As for me seeking another place, I�ve been here more than six years now, and I�ll likely stay as long as both photo.net and I exist! That�s my FEEDBACK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
root Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 First, I have no official function on this forum. Jeremy, on the other hand, is in charge of the handling charges of abuse. :-) No one is seeking you out for the purposes of rating your images. All new uploads go into a list and anyone can rate those images in the order they come up on the screen. This has served the purpose of a first filter to assist in deciding which images get visibility on the top pages. Please go back and read all of Brian Mottershead's posts in this thread. The last is a very popular misconception. It doesn't matter what the 'consensus' is. If it's site policy, your job is to try to understand it and abide by it. If the majoirty does not agree with it or understand it, it's beside the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Obviously I have no choice but to abide by it, if I want to have photos people can look at when they click my name. I'm sure there are some awfully good photographers who refuse to submit to this contest system in order to share their work. As to consensus, it's funny there might be a policy the majority of users to the site don't approve of, but if you say so... In any case I'm not speaking for just myself here. I can't figure one reason why you couldn't have grading an option instead of a requirement, and still serve the purposes you intend. There are plenty enough people who WANT this feedback. I don't. Joe, yes, you can forward your comments beforehand for my approval. At least then we'd have some connection before you crap on my photo, and I don't have a clue whether you're the curator of a photo museum, or Elmer Fudd. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzWeber Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Peter, why did I know that you would write "You are a here only since a month"? You are wrong! I'm a visitor of PN since a longer time and you must not tell me what happens in PN out of the galleries. (Did you read "Berlin and Prague"?) What I don't like is that here some people think they are the gods of photographie and they don't accept that people are different and every one sees the world with his own eyes and that cause of that there is not the "one and only" 7 or 6 or 1. Let them rate their own 7, 3 or what else. What's wrong when they do so? I see that and I'm old enough to get my own meaning of that without crying for rules how to rate. There is not "that" rating. Regards Franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 What's wrong with Elmer Fudd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlad po... Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Carl, I'm trying to say, that this 'blurred' statistics can hardly be a basis for strong actions. It may indicate, that on somebody's opinion, who's average say 3.0/3.0, I'm mate-rater, and you, with 5.33/5.23, probably too, or at least, look very suspecious. On my opinion, 3/3 rater may look like a sadist, who enjoying downrating. To avoid all these mutual suspicions, frequent 'verbal' threats, maybe it's a good idea to change system accordingly, instead of hundreds of attempts to change human nature by explaining how to use current rating system. I guess, anonymous rating would be good, however it has been rejected already by PN practice. Another approach maybe weighing ratings relatively overall average to minimize subjectivism, mate rating, whatever. For example, if overall PN average say (randomly) 4.5, but Anna's is 6 (supposed to be inflated), after weighing any certain Anna's rating, e.g 6/6, it converts by a statistical software into (again arbitrarily) 5/5; accordingly, ratings from a '3.0 person' to be converted by a software, say into 4.0. Maybe than, the balance would be achieved without any dramatic and actions like now. Otherwise, the 'justice' should win, even the world will be destroyed. Just my deeply subjective opinion, I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_crame1 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 You are all acting like a bunch of fucking artists. Clearly none of you have laid on stocks of pringles, beer and hard drugs. Choose life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecarter Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Geez - starting to see multiple exclamation marks in this one. Sure sign of an unstable mind. :-) Don't think I've weighed in on this one yet, so since I'm home sick with a cold on the 4th of July (ARGH!) and at least for the day don't feel up to choosing life (thank you Mr. Crane), I might as well drop in my two cents. First off, since when is photo.net a democracy? It is a benevolent dictatorship (thanks, Brian and Marc!) that generally respects free speech. OTOH, it's a moderator's job to step in when things have gotten out of hand - as they have. Now I will not dispute the quality of work that I've seen here, by Anna and several other photographers. The top photographers on the site certainly deserve recognition for their work and skill. I'll be sorry to see Anna go, but from everything I've seen, she's not been banned - she's walking on her own. More power to her. The more I think about it, the more I think the way to put a brake on "mate-rating" and "revenge-rating" is to simply disallow ratings without comments. Make it take more effort to rate photos, and maybe those ratings will be more thoughtful and significant? Or maybe not - after all, we're a bunch of "artists." :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecarter Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Sorry - Mr. Crame, not Crane. Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie bekkers Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Hi All,I have found that one must be brave to rate poorly on this site. I have not at least been the victim of SPAM Rating/Comments but my partner has. I also don't understand when some photo's get 6/6 as an average and then someone goes through your portfolio and gives 4/4 or 3/4 etc. I would like to see a system where deviating more than 1 from the average rating requires a comment. I have nothing against my photos being rated lowly but if it deviates significantly from the average I really want to know why. After all this site is about improvement.CheersJamie. Ps. When ever I have been involved in any litigation the first thing my lawyer says is "Shut your mouth" and the lawyer handles everything from that point onwards and I have to admit that the "Shut your mouth" advise has been the best $100.00 I have ever spend ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_garrick Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Eric - Requiring a comment doesn't generally work - I assume that's why the requirement to leave comments for 1, 2, and 7 ratings was removed. You just get a long run of people that leave "Wow!" or "another great shot!" and similar stuff. If you make them write 20 words, they either write wow 20 times or paste in stupid boilerplate comments. Ray - Actually, I'm the curator of the Elmer Fudd Museum of Photography. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 it would be a bunk claim anywho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzWeber Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Dear Peter, only numbers? The numbers have a meaning 6 = very well and so on. And I don't think that most of the comments are helpful. Cut here, cut there use PS. The photos i take don't get better in this way. And when someone rates a photo 5 or 6 I know there is someone who likes that photo and doesn't find it bad. And 3 shows he has another meaning. There are varity of opinions and you can not rule opinions. And that is what happens here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougityb Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Franz, I agree with you regarding "There are varity of opinions and you can not rule opinions. And that is what happens here." This is what discourages people from offering their opinions when they feel the image is anything less than 5. When someone does have the courage to say: "This image is a failure in my opinion, etc, " you can sometimes hear the lynch mob forming as everyone begins to question the judgement of this person, especially when their opinion is counter to all those posted beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincetylor Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 The problem Doug, is it's the same few people that put these lower numbers on others work.....most all of their work! What I also find very ironic, is that the work of these lower raters (also called the "balance brigade" by Brian) is really not very good at all. Once somebody goes through your entire folder, you naturally want to check out their work, to see how good this lower rating photographer is. (He must be at least pretty good right, since he is rating your work quite critically). Interesting that people with very average work, feel so compelled to go through the folders of those with above average work. Kind of Funny, actually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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