M7 rangefinder

[john_boyle3]

Just get an M2, M3 or M4 and go take pictures!

[james_gumm]

Have you ever actually experienced this 'flare'? I have a brace of

M cameras. M2,3,4 and they will all flare given the right

circumstances. However its pretty rare and is not that major a

problem. Repositioning slightly either your body or eye with

reference to the offending light usually cures any problems.

People complain so much about this, its really not a big deal.

[bob haight]

"We also know that Leica has known to ship old inventory too." If you think on that statement, it is crazy. Leica for the most part has had limited inventories, but, any manufacturer ships what inventory they have. Leica cameras and parts are not bakery products or even film for that matter. It sounds as if you have a beef with Leica and maybe not just over rangefinders.

[tom m.]

James, I am with you. I have an early model M7 which I enjoy using very

much. I believe that the flare issue is more a hypothetical one rather than a

practical issue. I really don't believe that corporate Leica is engaged in a

campaign to deceive its customers. The time to deal with the issue of the the

viewfinder is at purchase. The suggestion, made by someone else, to deal

with a high volume merchant is a good one.

[jonathan_russell]

Bob,

 

The comment was based on my experience with an R8. And yes, the circumstances indicate, as well as others that I have heard about, that Leica has shipped old units to retailers over the years.

[bobtodrick]

And I have to add this to those throwing up the car (BMW) analogy. Struts that fail deserve a recall. Gas tanks that explode (Pinto) probably rate one too. But flaring rangefinders rate right up there with 'gee the seats in my new car just aren't as comfy as the old ones'. Worth fixing...probably. At a good price (say for the parts, labor free), maybe...free - I doubt it. This reminds me (since the car thing seems so popular) of Audi about 15 years ago. Seems there were claims of the things taking off on their own and driving through garage doors, storefronts, etc...even rated a 60 Minutes moment. Ended up pretty much being driver error...no recall, though some said the brake pedal could have been bigger.

[jonathan_russell]

Thanks everyone for all of the information and feedback. So, the concensus seems to be that while the early M7 rangefinder can flare, the circumstances that cause it are infrequent and the measures needed to correct it are trivial. OK, good enough. Even Jay feels this way. Maybe I should buy a used one, see if I can live with it, and sell it if I cannot.

 

To those who have asked whether I have actually used an M7, no. I have used an M6. I own an M3. The M6 did flare on occasion. I agree that it was not a terrible big deal. Do I think a 2,500usd camera should have a flaw that has apparantly been going on for 20+ years? NO.

 

Would I prefer to purchase an M7 that has a rangefinder design that reportedly eliminates/virtually eliminates flare? Yes, given equal prices. Do I wish Leica would provide the data that would allow me to make that decision? Yes. Do I still think Leica is wrong? Yes. They have devalued the cameras of early adopters and have made it impossible for new buyers to make an informed buying decision.

[lee_shively]

I have two M6's and I had an M4-P back in the 1980's. The viewfinder occasionally flares out. It's a "seldom" occasion, it's not an everyday or every month occurance. It happens less often than I misfocus or set the wrong exposure. It happens less often than I make a bad print in the darkroom. It happens less often than the third Tuesday comes each month. It just happens every now and then. It's not as inconvenient as a flat on a car, it's not as major as the central heat going out in the winter, it's not a fatal disease.

 

I know Leicas cost a lot and because they cost a lot people expect them to be "perfect". They ain't. Nothing is. If the cameras had a major defect, I'd get highly pissed myself. But occasional rangefinder flare is not a major defect. The solution to this problem is to not buy an M7 but to get the MP.

[gary_ferguson1]

Is it really THAT big an issue? I don't think so.

 

I've had an early M7 and a late M6TTL (same rangefinder), and now I've got a late M7 and an MP, in terms of practical picture taking I don't see much difference between any of them.

 

There's more significant issues, such as having 20% or so of the viewfinder image obscured by the lens, or the innacuracy of the frame lines. But we accept these as part and parcel of the Leica experience and just get on with our photography. The M7 rangefinder flare issue is trivial in that it has no real bearing on how good, or bad, your images will be.

[sammer]

OK... nothing is perfect - this is true. Let's not forget, however, that if one wishes they can buy a decent slr setup for a FRACTION of the cost of an M body. When you spend $2500+ on a camera, you expect something that is as close to perfection as the company can produce. I only wish Leica were as sympathetic to the plight of their customers as many on this forum are to the company.

 

While not having the non-flaring finder is not the end of the world, it is a fairly major and desirable upgrade. Leica really needs to let their customers know what they are buying. If it were me, I would not purchase ANY new camera from Leica until I was sure of what I was getting. Why purchase a new MP just for the finder if what you really want is the M7? Buy a used body that you can resell for close to what you paid for it and be satisfied that no company benefitted from what you feel to be an unfair practice.

 

Personally, I love my M6 ttl, flaring RF and all.

[kevin m.]

"...and neither do the M6's or M6TTL's unless you don't keep your eye centered in the finder."

 

In a word, Jay, Bullshit. I'd like to remind you that you are just ONE person. No matter how highly you esteem you own judgement and opinion, you are using the only set of eyes you have with which to make your claim. Other people had different eyes, and they have different experiences. There is also the issue of sample to sample variation. My M6 classic flared like a pig. My M6TTL with the .85 finder (rumored to be the worst in this regard) flares hardly at all.

 

I once spent a weekend at a pension on a Greek island. The shower was cold and the mattress was lumpy, but it was $10 a night, so I had a great time. The next year, I went back and the price had jumped to $50 a night. The cold shower and lumpy mattress weren't so charming any more. For $2,500, Leica shouldn't be making excuses, and neither should any of you.

[bobtodrick]

Sam...just name me one decent SLR (of the same quality I'll add) that can be purchased for a fraction of the cost of an M. Quality wise (mechanically and optically) the SLR alternatives would by the Nikon F5, Canon EOS1hv, Contax N etc. Then take the L series Canon lenses, (or the Ziess or the good fixed aperture Nikkors), and quess whay...your within dollars of an M setup. Surely you not comparing things like Nikon N80's or Canon Elan 7's to a Leica?

[bobtodrick]

'In a word, Jay, Bullshit. I'd like to remind you that you are just ONE person'...gee Kevin, exchange your name for Jay's......As I said earlier, I don't know what I'd do if presented with an early M7. But if you carefully read all the posts it's pretty inconclusive. Some swear it hardly exists, a few are crippled by it and some don't give a rats derriere. This may just fall into the 'ya can't please all the people all the time' category.

[verdi_re_richard]

je viens de recevoir mon M7 et il ne présente aucun flare son N°2886XXX si cela peut permettre à certain de bien dormir.

Mais est-ce cela le plus important? Avec mon M6 TTL je n'y avais jamais prêté attention; je faisais plus attention à ce qui se passait dans le viseur.

salutations

 

I have just received my M7 and it does not present any flare its N°2886XXX if that can make it possible certain to sleep well. But is this that most important? With my M6 TTL I had never paid attention to it; I paid more attention to what occurred in the sight

greetings

[kevin m.]

Bob, it's NOT inconclusive. The people who experience flare experience flare. Even if others do not. Consensus means nothing in this case. Jay's statement would have been perfectly fine if he had said "I don't experience flare if I reposition my eye." But he didn't. He claimed that "You" (meaning someone else) don't experience flare if "You" reposition your eye. It's fine for Jay to "call it like he sees it," but he can't claim to see it for someone else.

[paul hart]

If you purchase an M7, your contract will be with the dealer, not Leica. If you expressly make it a term of the contract that the M7 supplied to you is to be fitted with the new flare-reducing finder, you will have a remedy against the dealer if it isn't.

 

That's the position in the UK (and all disclaimers for all kinds of responsibility for legal advice should be deemed to be inserted here!) and it may or may not be the same in the US.

 

I have an M7 with a 278**** serial number, purchased last December. It has never flared in use, but I can make it do so in certain lighting conditions. I can't make my M3 flare in the same conditions.

[jay_.]

And I'll stand by my statement. If *you* get flare it's because *you* don't, can't--or maybe won't--reposition your eye. But I'm on the same side you, I think Leica should retrofit the MP finder into all the early M7s. Not because *you* think there's a flare problem, but because *Leica* gave it credibility by first coating the windows of the M7--with the decision already made to replace the entire rangefinder in less than a year--and now whether or not an early My buyer thinks he gets flare or not, the resale value of his recent purchase has been flushed down the tube.

[kevin m.]

"And I'll stand by my statement. If *you* get flare it's because *you* don't, can't--or maybe won't--reposition your eye."

 

Jeez, Jay, don't you see how ridiculous that statement is? Without any proof or testing you KNOW I'm positioning my camera incorrectly? And that my eye and your eye see things the same way? And if I WON'T position my eye correctly, why not? Spite? That's a lot of supposition for a man who supposedly places great value in being scientific and rational.

[cameron_sawyer]

I am really very happy for Jay and any others who don't suffer from RF patch flare. Let them buy all the surplus M6's and early M7's. They fondle just as good with the old finder, don't they? I for one find the usefulness of the M6 finder in real life shooting situations SIGNIFICANTLY impaired by this phenomenon which, for me, is not solved by scrunching my eyeball around (even when I have time for such nonsense). To such an extent that I would not use my M6 for a critical shoot. And I don't think I'm the only one by a long shot.

 

Therefore, I find Jonathan's desire to locate a new M7 with the improved finder perfectly reasonable. But IMHO he should quit whining about Leica USA and just trot down to the dealer and pick one out himself. Here is the perfect example of a case where the premium price over mail order is well justified.

[jonathan_russell]

Cameron,

 

But isn't this a public whining forum. Call it whining if you want, but it just irritates me when a company with such a compelling history with beautiful and functional products asks its customers to step up and pay for the very best gives something less than that. My customers won't let me get away with it. I suspect yours won't either.

[cameron_sawyer]

Hey Jonathan, I agree with you. It's pathetic. My clients would desert me if I behaved like Leica USA. But who said pretty, expensive toys are supposed to be trouble and hassle free? They usually aren't. How many Porsche 911's did I have with exploding cam chain tensioners or pyrotechnic air boxes? BMW's with cracked cylinder heads or wacko electronics? Defective design, straight from the factory! Eh, it just goes with the territory and it's actually not worth getting worked up over. If you want hassle free, buy a Honda. Or a Nikon.

 

You're lucky -- you're in the market. Just splurge on the dealer markup and buy a fresh one with a RF you can check personally.

[sammer]

"Sam...just name me one decent SLR (of the same quality I'll add) that can be purchased for a fraction of the cost of an M. Quality wise (mechanically and optically) the SLR alternatives would by the Nikon F5, Canon EOS1hv, Contax N etc"

 

Bob... my point is that one spends the extra dollar with a Leica for the better quality. They spend several fold over alternatives for what they perceive to be the pinnacle of performance. I can sympathize with someone who - before laying down a small fortune for a camera body - wants to be sure that they know EXACTLY what they are paying for.

 

Also, the fully auto SLR's are not a fair comparison... I was thinking more of the Nikon FM3A with a decent lens. This could be had new for well under $1000... not even close to a Leica in quality... not even close to a Leica in price. But it is more than enough to make great pictures and will last for years. When you shell out a few thousand more than this for just a body, I think it's understandable to be demanding.

[douglas k.]

Manufacturers tweak designs and change parts during production runs. That has been true for the M6, M4-2, and probably other M models. Nikon, too, will continually modify F series cameras (perhaps others, too) during production runs as customer feedback and warranty returns demonstrate areas needing improvement. Hence, it's a bit unrealistic to expect every single M7, for the whole production run, to be identical. And if you haven't even bought the camera yet, just wait another couple of months and then buy one from a high-volume dealer, as others have recommended. If you were to actually buy one now, then intentionally damage it in hopes of getting a different finder, that would be (IMO) both fraudulent and stupid.

[john_layton]

HOLY SHIT !

[henry_ting2]

I find being verbally critical in direct confrontation with any organisation always result in both parties taking it as a personal attack. I had similar experiences with my BMW when I called BMWUSA and my Patek watch with I called the Stern Agency in New York. I found dealing in such a dialogue always get me frustrated in verbal sparring zingings. I once talked to Yahoo's Webhosting support on an obnoxious billing and got me nowhere. I later resolved all these problems after writing to the state's consumer administration. I feel these companies can do all the spins when dealing with us as individuals, but would shun from dealing with any official bureaucratic organisations if they can help it.