M7 rangefinder

[jonathan_russell]

Please don't kill me for bringing up this topic again.

 

I want to buy an M7. While I would likely be just fine with whatever

rangefinder version, I would like one like the MP that

minimizes/eleminates flare. I spoke with an individual at Leica US

and she just made me mad. First, I asked her whether M7 cameras are

now being produced with the MP rangefinder. She said that all M7

cameras after January 2003 have the MP rangefinder. I asked how I

could tell whether a camera has the MP rangefinder or not. She said

that there was no way to tell, not even with serial numbers to her

knowledge. I expressed that this was rediculous. We all know that

retailers may have stock that was recently produced, and may have

stock that is a year old. We also know that Leica has been known to

ship old inventory too. She agreed, but offered nothing not even

sympathy. I then said, fine, I will buy a USA M7 with a passport

warranty. If it flares, who knows, it could accidentally fall off of

a building or something. Would you fix it with an MP rangefinder?

She said yes, but the warranty does not cover intentional repairs. I

assured her that it would be accidental. I asked her whether she

thought it was ethical that M7 literature speaks specifically of the

improved rangefinder, yet the early M7 cameras had no improvement.

She said that the early M7 had the same rangefinder that has worked

just fine in the M6 for 20 years. I asked, so you don't have a

problem with the fact that the literature says one thing and Leica

delivers another? She said no, when I buy a car I know that the next

model will have improvements that my model does not. I said yes, but

you would not expect to buy a BMW with a 3.0 inline 6 engine and find

out 6 months later that it really had the 2.5 litre version. She had

no comment. I said, well don't be surprised if you guys in repair

start seeing a lot of crushed M7 cameras in for warranty repair.

 

Then, I asked Poon at HK supplies whether he knew anything about

serial numbers and current M7 cameras having the MP rangefinder. He

called Leica and wrote me the following...

 

"I checked with Leica and this may be a rumor.

Leica has this plan but they did not make it yet.

Best regards,

Poon"

 

Then, I read these forums and see mention of the MP rangefinder being

in current M7 cameras. Some people speak of serial number prefixes

288 having the MP rangefinder.

 

Honestly if I already owned an M7, and it did not flare, I would not

be worried about it at all. I do think Leica is wrong here. Maybe

part of my frustration is the principal. Leica is wrong.... What can

be done? Nothing. I guess I should just buy an M7, hope it does not

flare, and forget it. Sure seems to me that I am just reinforcing

Leica's bad behavior though.

[stephen_w.]

I think she responded to your furtive questions and rant politely. Try calling GM...or BMW and see if you even get through.

[lucien1]

<< I asked her whether she thought it was ethical that M7 literature speaks

specifically of the improved rangefinder, yet the early M7 cameras had no

improvement.>>

 

Jonathan,

 

Again that myth !

 

Here is was Leica has mentioned about the M7 viewfinder :

 

"in order to enhance contrast and brightness even further, an especially scratch

resistant multi-coating is now being applied to the viewfinder windows".

 

And here is what Leica wrote about the MP viewfinder: "Viewfinder optics improved

for reduced susceptibility to stray light and enhanced visibility of all bright-line

frames."

[new hampshire john]

I'm kinda' surprised that you got someone who was both well-informed and appears to have been pretty responsive to your questions (not based on past experience with Leica customer service (I have none), but just based on being a frustrated consumer generally). It sounds like she gave you matter-of-fact answers to questions that merited it. I'd talk to a retailer from whom you would purchase the camera and ask them if their current stock includes the improved-rangefinder M7s, and ask them if they can give you some guaranty that you'll receive such a model if you purchase from them.

[jonathan_russell]

Lucien,

 

If they have in fact made a change to the coatings, then why did the person at Leica clearly state that the rangefinder was identical to that which existed for the M6?

[cameron_sawyer]

Hi Jonathan: I agree with the other posters that you were a bit hard on the poor girl. She's not responsible for Leica policy. The solution to your problem is in your own hand. Borrow or rent an M6, and go to a good Leica dealer and try out several M7's. Compare the finder views to those of the M6. Look through all the finders with a bright light somewhere just outside of the finder field of vision. If you see a noticeable difference from the M6, then it's the new finder, and buy it. If not, it's not. If you can't tell any difference in any case, then why do you care? No need to torture Leica USA employees; they're not going to tell you anything useful in any case.

[jonathan_russell]

Steve,

 

GM, no.

 

BMW, yes.

 

BTW, I give no gold stars for her willingness to answer my questions. She is a representative of the company. And, thus, here responses represent the company. Her responses were unacceptable.

[ralph_barker]

My cynical mind is envisioning the guys in Leica's marketing department (the ones who fielded all those flare complaints) dreaming up the "new and improved" ploy, just to watch us scurry around trying to figure out the transition point in the serial numbers.

[h._p.]

Well, all I can say is that from your description of the conversation, Leica should give the woman an award. Personally, about the time you talked about a camera "fall[ing] off of a building or something" I'd have put the 'phone down on you.

 

Seeking clear cut advice is one thing, being downright rude to someone who can't fight back is quite another.

[jay_.]

Like I said, anyone who bought an early M7 is screwed. It's already starting just like I predicted: people not wanting to buy one unless it has the MP finder. Only someone like Lucien could believe that when the M7 was released in Spring of 2002 Leica didn't already have plans to switch to the MP finder only a year later. Just like the decision to stop selling parts to independent repair shops or Leica owners (go ahead Lucien, tell me I made that up too--and tell it to Don and Sherry who have confirmed it, go ahead, call them liars too)it is clear evidence that Leica's new management is absolutely clueless as to what kinds of practices will surely alienate the customers and kill the company.

[lucien1]

Jonathan,

 

On the M7, behind the newly coated windows which are attached to the top cover, the

rangefinder was the same as on the M6.

 

Lucien

[jonathan_russell]

Harvey,

 

I think rude is as much about tone of voice as anything. I was not being rude. Mostly, I was introducing the idea of deciet for deciet argument. Unless I am seeing this wrong, or have incorrect information, I believe that Leica has deceived its customers. Why should deceived customers treat Leica any different? Also I wanted to know what rangefinder they would use as a replacement. Take a sacremoneous moral high ground attitude if you like, but people who purchased the early M7 cameras that flare who cannot sell them for 1700usd probably feel different.

[mike dixon]

My advice would be 1) order your camera from a place like B&H or Tamarkin which is likely to have a relatively high turnover of M7 bodies, and 2) find something a bit more worthwhile to get so riled up about.

[bobtodrick]

I don't know how I feel about this one. On the one hand I'd be pissed (probably) if I was an early M7 user (it would depend on just how bad I found the dreaded flare to be). On the other hand even your much vaunted BMW had a huge problem with early 320i's (this goes back 20 years) that had an extremely weak front strut tower. At the time I was involved in slaloming and the courses were littered (so to speak) with 320i's with front struts rammed through the fender. What did BMW say...'your driving them too hard and not for their intended purpose'. My point being of course that EVERY company goofs once in a while...so the attitude that this should never have happened (the flare problem) is BS. We've sold a fair number of M6 and M7 in the last while and no one has complained about the flare...how much of the problem is urban myth (Jonathon even you don't own an M7...have you experienced the flare first hand??...just wondering). And some of the other poster are quite correct...I've dealt with camera sales on and off for over 25 years now. Consistently the service from Leica, on average, far exceeds what you'll get out of Nikon or Canon.

[jay_.]

<<Take a sacremoneous moral high ground attitude if you like, but people who purchased the early M7 cameras that flare who cannot sell them for 1700usd probably feel different.>>

 

Worse than that, the early M7's *don't* flare, and neither do the M6's or M6TTL's unless you don't keep your eye centered in the finder. And the MP *will* flare, just not within as narrow a tolerance of eye position. But people read the internet and even though they've never held one in their life, they don't want an M7 with an early finder if they can get one with the MP finder for the same money. And now that Leica no longer sells parts, the option is no longer there for somebody to have DAG or Sherry retrofit an MP finder at reasonable cost and in a reasonable time-frame and with reasonable assurance of a properly-done job.

[lucien1]

Jay,

 

What I'm saying is that Leica NEVER said that the coated windows would cure the

flare.

 

I'm still waiting for a proof that they did.

 

What I'm also saying is that the new rangefinder was not ready to be produced when

the M7 came on the market.

 

But we knew since the beginning that the new rangefinder was not ready and will

come later. Those who bought an M7 knowing it, don't have to cry now...

 

I agree with you, that now it's to late, and it's not good for the resale value of the first

M7s.

 

But, during that first (fiscal) year, Leica sold around 16.000 M cameras, mainly M7,

instead of 8 to 10.000 the years before.

 

Had they waited one more year to release the M7, I doubt very much that they had

sell as many of them.

 

And the current value of the $ had not helped. In Europe, the MP and the M7 are

selling at the same price, around 3.000 euros tax included.

 

A lot of companies in the world know what kind of improvements they will offer in the

future, but they have to live. They have to sell now! And they cannot afford to offer

upgrade for free. Specially Leica in its financial situation.

[lucien1]

<<Just like the decision to stop selling parts to independent repair shops>>

 

Jay,

 

It's really a stupid decision.

 

Lucien

[norman_mayersohn]

Leica might not be playing fair, but in the grand scope of things buying an M7 is not a must-do, life-or-death necessity. This is 2003, and word travels quickly on the Internet. So sit tight and that serial number will emerge, or some clever another individual will come up with a sure-fire ID for the cameras with the MP-type finder. It's the folks who already own early M7s who have a legitimate gripe.

[jay_.]

Bob, I owned 6 new BMW's during the course of 1983 to 2002. Whenever there was an improved part to replace an existing one, I got a notice to bring the car in to have it retrofitted at no cost. They even gave me a loaner. And when my BMW's go out of warranty, the BMW dealer happily sells genuine BMW parts to my independent Bimmer service guy. So any comparison with BMW should clearly point out how despicable Leica's recent behavior and policies have become.

[jonathan_russell]

Bob,

 

I don't have an M7. I have an M3. I have never purchased an M6 because of flare. My whole thing, really, is that I want to be able to make a purchase and know that what I purchase has the MP rangefinder. Not too much to ask in my view. Maybe Mike Dixon has it right and I should buy from B&H, not withstanding his criticism for the way I spend my time. BTW Mike, I have been reading these forums for around 2 years now and have never posted a question until now.

 

So Bob, do you buy into Jay's assertion that that Leica knew that they would be installing the MP rangefinder in the M7 but first wanted to reduce existing inventory levels of M6 rangefinders? If so, do you think Leica is playing fair in doing that? I don't. I also don't believe that they don't have a serial number cuttoff where the change occurred.

[mike dixon]

Just trying to offer a pragmatic solution. If you get all wound up when a company isn't entirely forthright with you, either you shouldn't talk to companies or you should make sure your heart is healthy enough to survive the indignation that will typically result. ; )

[bobtodrick]

Jonathon...re-read my post...I stated I too might be pissed if I owned an M7...the difficulty I have here is that, even as Jay states, it is often just a matter of shifting ones eye a bit. As I mentioned I sell a quite a few of these things...and I know a slew of REAL users (how about a couple of Canadian newsphotographers of the year, a Life shooter based in NY plus two very well known photo-artists whom you'd all recognize)...not one has complained of this problem. The only place I've read about it is on phot.net, lug and the such, by (I dare say I'll take hits here) shooters shooting 10 or 15 rolls a year. I still contend there's a bit of 'urban myth' going on here...visons of shooters being permanently blinded from the painful glare off their rangefinder patches. And to you Jay this is what is bad about the 'net. You seem to paint anything Leica service-wise with one brush...yet here in Canada we've alway had excellent service, especially when Kindermann was the dealer (we'll see now that we're drawing from NJ...the ballots still out on that one). And the specific reason I rallied and slalomed an Alfa Romeo was because BMW serivce (at least 20 years ago) was abysmal in Western Canada. Oh well, everyone has their own experiences.

[tom h.]

Another way to look at it is that if you buy a brand new Leica, it's

going to be an EXCELLENT camera. With whatever version of

whatever viewfinder.My m6ttl flares sometimes, (only in certain

lighting conditions) it's easy to get around. I wouldn't swap it for

anything, mp,m7 included (and I'm sure if I owned one of those,

I'd feel the same way). No, the REAL pain in the ass with a Leica

is trying to learn how to translate what the VF shows you into

what you want to end up on your frame of film. This drove me

nuts for six months and about a hundred rolls of film. I noticed

m6ttl VF flare a couple of times before I read about it here, and at

the time thought nothing of it, just moved my eye around. If you

can buy one, buy one- you won't regret it.

 

Tom

[fotografz]

Hell I wish I hadn't bought 2 early M7s...not because of the small

percentage of time that flare actually appears...but so I could now

buy both of them used for about $1,800 less.

 

An early M7 has to be one of the best deals around.

[derek_stanton2]

Well, despite claims by some of you, my M7 DOES flare. Certainly, i can usually make

the flare go away by repositioning my eye, but by then it's too late. I don't shoot

trees, park benches, and mountain ranges. It's usually People, who may not be

standing still waiting for me. And, fuggedaboudit when reframing between horizontal

and vertical.... Those of you who don't experience this must have the fortune of bone

structure perfectly conducive to proper eye-positioning.... Still, though, how is it

possible that the validity of the flare issue is still in dispute? Simply, it happens. Users

have experienced it, and the manufacturer claims to have improved/eliminated it in

their most recent product(s).

 

But, whatever. It's just such a stunning contradiction for this forum, with so many

people consistently crowing about The Decisive Moment.... I would gladly trade ten

milliseconds of shutter lag for a viewfinder that didn't white out as i try to focus. Yes,

i've missed shots because of it. Probably not 'good' shots, but the shots i WANTED at

that moment. THAT's what's important to me.

 

Whatever again. I'd just like to know conclusively whether or not my M7 (bought

November) is 'fixable.' My dealer says, having spoken with Leica USA, the whole

notion of installing an MP viewfinder is a myth. The board claims it can be done for

$250 (Solms?) or $750. Which is it? Has anyone actually done it yet?

 

And, no i don't really care that a jillion award-winning photos have been made with

flaring Leicas. Still no reason not to accept progress.