NO WORDS

[photojoe]

Perhaps we can have a NO WORDS forum. These threads seem to be quite

popular and should not be confied to LEICA, NIKON, or whatever sort

of camera is used to create the image.

[bobatkins]

Just post in the Leica forum. They'll never know the difference...

[keith_laban]

I have expressed my support for No Words threads on many occasions, but believe they work best as an integrated part of the various individual forums, which is why I am so keen to see them accepted on the Medium Format and Nature Forums. I would also like to see "Few Words" and "Words" threads, both of which can be useful, fun and educational.

[severi_salminen]

Yes, indeed, how about "Black and White Words", "Colorful Words" and "Silly Gibberish" threads also? Soon there will be hard to find any "normal" discussion in those forums, and they will become pure galleries. I really hope there would be a separate No Words forum for anyone interested or at least a way to disable them from message listings. The concept is fine and interesting, the implementation sucks big time. Could someone even tell me why a separate forum is a bad thing??

 

I see that the concept of Photo.net is to have separate communities rather than topical discussion forums (look Nikon forum description for example). Thats fine, but please don't let it go too "irregulated".

[keith_laban]

<i>"Could someone even tell me why a separate forum is a bad thing"</i><p>It's not a bad thing, infact I would say it's the next best thing to having them integrated within the existing forums. Trouble is some of the moderators are against including them in the existing forums, so you are sorted if you own a Leica, Nikon or large format camera, but stuffed if you use a medium format camera or shoot nature, both of which leave me up the creek without a paddle!

[mottershead]

There is quite a lot of support for a "No Words" forum. There have been several threads proposing one over the past few weeks.

 

NW is a popular and cool idea. The Leica Forum has now edged out the Unarchived Forum as the most popular one on photo.net, and I am sure this is because of the popularity of "No Words", rather than because of a major increase in the number of Leica owners (or a major increase in how long-winded they are, since they were always a pretty long-winded group.)

 

The photo.net powers-that-be hesitate to create a No Words forum for only one reason: without the tie to a particular forum community, we are afraid that a NW forum would simply become another Photo Critique Forum/Gallery. There are already so many photos in the Gallery that many do not receive any comments or even many views, especially photos that are not so good. Even though the NW threads are not supposed to provide comments, they still provide visibility, and a NW forum could be rapidly filled up with pretty dire uninteresting photos, looking for their 5 seconds of photo.net fame. That would make the NW threads much less interesting, and good photographers might hesitate to post in them, with quality gradually spiralling down. We might have to institute rules, such as in the Photo Critique forum, limiting the number of photos that can be posted per week, etc. Eventually, people might want a way to rate the NW Forum threads so that they can find the good ones, and before you know it, we have a parallel Gallery. Even with the forum community tie-in, this is already happening with NW threads to some degree, and I feel that the quality is slowly declining.

 

I am sure we are seeing Bob's dry sense of humor when he suggests that people post their NW threads in the Leica forum -- that the Leica forum wouldn't notice that the photos weren't taken with Leicas. But, in fact, I have been wondering how long it will take the Leica folks to get fed up with the forum being filled with NW posts from people who never participate in a "Words" thread in the forum.

 

Still, I like the NW threads, and if anybody can think of a way to avoid the above problems, without creating a lot of complicated rules (and programming), I am basically open to the idea of a NW Forum.

[lex_jenkins]

Yeh, my sympathies. No place for my scat pix.<div></div>

[keith_laban]

Brian

 

I think you are quite right to be worried that a No Words Forum would become another Photo Critique Forum/Gallery.

 

They are an asset when tied into specific forums and certainly engender a sense of community.

 

Trouble is, as things are now, we have an uneven playing field. Speaking as one who shoots predominantly nature with a medium format camera, I am effectively excluded from NW threads.

 

Surely the moderators of the Medium Format and Nature Forums can see the success of the NW threads in the forums that now include them. Why not just level the playing field, at least then the NW threads would be under the scrutiny of the existing moderators.

[sliu]

<p>

I first noticed NW in the "People" forum, and I did post some photos there. But sometimes pure images introduced more words, mutual admiration comments and off topic chats. That is very annoying because it violates the spirit of "No Words". And I didn't see the enforcement of "No Words" from the moderators.

<p>

Then I found the forum where the "No Words" originated, the Leica Forum. It is very cool. But posting a non-Leica photo on the Leica Forum makes me feel like cheating and inferior because I could not afford a Leica.

<p>

Now I start to post NW in Nikon forum because I am a real Nikon user and I have a "real" Nikon camera. I see many interesting images in my posts (for example:

<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0051ZL">

Day and Night</a>, <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004zkm">Decisive moment</a>). I learn a lot from the images. I do feel good when people write good comments on my photos but I think that is off topic. If I can moderate the thread, I would remove all words, including captions.

<p>

Another annoying thing is that people do not know how to include images in their threads. There is a jpg file name rule. There is a 800 pixel rule and there is a 512 pixel rule. They are all in the Photo.net FAQ but people fail to notice them and there is not enough help or notice in the image upload window. Sometimes I have to add instructions in the post to help people include images.

<p>

<i> ... if anybody can think of a way to avoid the above problems, without creating a lot of complicated rules (and programming), I am basically open to the idea of a NW Forum. </i>

<p>

Actually, it is not so difficult to make a NW forum. All you need is a moderator to keep off topic images and word comments. "No words" is about sharing visual experience, not 15 second fame.

<p>

If you have a plan for this forum and can not find a photo editor, I can volunteer.

[bobatkins]

Sorry, but I'm just not going to accept "no words" posts in the nature forum and that's just about all there is to it. There's still a nature image critique gallery on greenspun.com and you can post images there if you so wish. My philosophy for the forum is that it's a place for technical and informational exchange. You're welcome to post an image which illustrates a technical point or is an example of a location you are describing. The forum is eductional and just posting images with no text ("no words", neans NO WORDS) isn't very eductaional. It may be entertaining but this isn't TV and we have a (free) gallery section if you just want to display your work.

 

I was only 1/2 joking about the Leica forum - and other forums which allow "no words" posts. Do they actually have a rule that every image posted has to be shot with a Leica, or do they simply have images that are "Leica" type images, i.e. streetshots etc.?

 

It would be somewhat silly to have a gallery based on what was used to shoot the image rather then the image itself since at web resolution there's no way you can tell an image shot with a $5000 Leica from that shot with a $50 Canonette QL17 - or just about any other camera with the possible exception of a Holga. Only the most equipment obsessed photographer could possibly think that an equipment based gallery is a good idea. What's next, a gallery for images shot only on Tri-X developed in D-76 scanned with an HP Photosmart S20 and taken with a Canon EOS 10s and a 35/2 lens?

 

I'd welcome a "no words" gallery if it would stop people from trying to post "no words" threads in all the other forums. I'd also modify the forum software to exclude the possibility of adding any words, so it really would be "no words", not "some words". If you want pure images, then it should be pure images. If you want a critique or to say something about an image, it should be posted in the gallery section.

 

Leave the technical and instructional forums alone.

[keith_laban]

Bob, perhaps the forum should be known in the future as the Nature Technical and Instructional Forum, rather than the Nature Photography Forum.

 

Seriously, can't say I'm not disappointed, but it's *your* forum.

[bobatkins]

No, I think a better title would be the "Nature Words" forum!

 

I'm sure at some point we'll have a "No Words" forum (or gallery based equivalent) with a nature section and hopefully that will provide a place for "no words" nature threads.

[Tony Rowlett]

The Leica forum has always accepted photography that is in the style initially made possible and mainstream by the small format Leica rangefinder camera, e.g. street, candid, photojournalistic, people, weirdness, or whatever. There are no restrictions on the equipment used, only the style. And that is a loose restriction, too, because members can very well take a landscape with a Leica and post it. This is not to say that landscapes and fashion photography will be removed automatically if the rig wasn't a Leica, but I think our Leica community has come to an understanding that we won't be quibbling on the matter much.

<p>

That "No Words" threads appear to be attracting "words" or "some words" or "many words" is not the failure of the "No Words" concept. The reason it works so well is that comments like "Why did you post this piece of crap?" and the ensuing flame war are few and far between. Along with the photography posted, the words that have accumulated have been interesting, entertaining, educational, and eye-opening -- all of these being virtues in my view.

<p>

Many of the "No Words" photographs are linked from the general photo.net gallery which I assume is the best way to go. That way, photos can attract whatever commentary the photographer wishes from there, while also particiapting in a NW thread in a forum that accepts them.