douglas_hagerman Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 ...and why the current crop of digital SLRs will be obsolete soon. When you add digital processing capability to the imaging system, then the lens design requirements change dramatically...making existing lenses irrelevant. http://www.sciencenews.org/20030329/bob9.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_p._schorsch Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Bullshit. When you use a high definition sensor the need for top-notch optics like leica lenses is relevant. After the sensors surpass the defining power of film, the quality of the optics will become more important than ever and leica will be much sought after for this reason. Notice how the Canon 1Ds already is said to be "unforgiving" with poor optics. My two sense. Cheers, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_p._schorsch Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Douglas,after reading your link maybe it's not bullshit after all. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 The real reason there's no need for a digital M is because Leica knows they can make all the profit they want selling recycled nostalgia. They know the heart of their market flutters to things like engraving, black paint, 50's-era winding hardware and shutters that go buzzzz without batteries--all those things that are really important to making great photographs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Really Jay...you need to see a therapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gib Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I thought Jay is a therapist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl smith Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 not sure i want that much DOF ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry_kincaid1 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Looks right to me. "ICI" cameras will make current digital cameras obsolete, and create even greater demand for classic Leica type cameras with lenses that act like the human eye. Art has different objectives than space or weapons science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Jay perhaps does need some therapy because even though he despises Leica he STILL buys it and uses it and shares his special dislike of it too on this forum. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I despise Leica, not Leicas. It was one thing when they made limited-production special retro-editions like the M6J, or dressed up limited runs of "commemoratives" for the collectors. It's quite another when they blatantly pander to the collector heartstrings, all the while raising prices higher and higher even as the market for 35mm film cameras (including second-hand Leica) softens--an obvious nod to the assumed wealth of their intended buyers. I don't even despise the MP, it's just an inanimate object--and a nicely-built camera capable of making outstanding images. I despise the fact that Leica chose to make the MP in the form they did, not because it is flawed, but because of the real rationale (not the marketing spin or Erwin's prose)behind its design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom h. Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Jay, why care about Leicas motivation? Think of it in terms of buying a good swiss watch- you can buy the basic stainless steel model which will perform it's function every bit as well as the same model made of gold, or "two-tone", or whatever. Cartier don't put diamonds on their watches so they'll tell the time better. They're targeting a wealthy market. Leicas basic product is still the best at what it does, and has the best build quality of any camera I've ever handled. In terms of the photographs you take, of course this means nothing. But good equipment never hurts.Let the collectors buy the collectibles, and the rest of us can shoot fim. There'll always be film- at least for the lifetime of everyone here. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Okay Jay, I'm going to bite and play therapist here a bit. What you say in your last posting is all fine and well. But if you truly feel this way then do something constructive...write and voice you thoughts to Leica's CEO...and do this in a well thought out and intelligent way, not with your usual aggressive and 'Leica-bashing' tone. Hit them in the pocket book, which I assume you do, by buying used not new. But continually carping here, especially on posts where someone is asking for genuine input for a problem, or is just wishing to say how happy they are at buying their first Leica...you just come off sounding bitter and resentful. I don't care, it's kind of become a joke to me, but someone who is new, wishing to get some info and is told that they've more or less made the worst mistake of his life by even looking at a Leica, is getting poor value out of this forum. Sorry...just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt_delesandri Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I want to go to Jays therapist with Bob...and then argue. About anything. Walt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I want to go to Jays therapist with Bob Me to, but my need is greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majid Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 With a trichromatic sensor like the Foveon, chromatic aberration could be corrected in software, leaving lens designers more flexibility to combat other aberrations and thus leading to better optical quality at a lower price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Jay There is something masochistic about your complaining though. Why stay all the time on the forum, and continue to buy their products if it is all so irritating and annoying? Why not just say that you will go over to Canon totally and complain on the EOS forum how they are not producing the camera that is just right for youl, discontinuing the FD mounts etc. etc. You seem to pick Leica out for this special treatment. With "customers" like you, who needs enemies? Poor old Leica. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas_green1 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Jay, just one question - Why do you care? While I totally agree with your analysis of Leica the company, I have found whatever I need amongst either Konica, or Cosina-Voigtlander products, or by buying used Leicas and Minoltas. Cosina-Voigtlander in particular seems thrilled to build a franchise in the market that Leica has consciously abandoned. The market for M-mount, or LTM-mount products that can easily be fit to the M-mount, is richer than it EVER was with Leica as it's sole devotee. Embrace the fact that Leica has moved on to the Hermes niche, and buy the products YOU need from the firms that sell the gear PHOTOGRAPHERS want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 <<Jay, just one question - Why do you care>> The answer is because it angers me partly that Leica's new management is aiming their new product at the fondlers more than the users; and partly because they are gouging us with repeated price raises--again, predicated on the theory that the fondlers are rich enough to keep buying; and partly because they are carelessly pissing ontheir loyal customers--people with less-than-1-yr-old M7's that are being "obsoleted" by the new finder (Leica knows full well the history of "stigmatized" Leica gear)when they should be offering a recall-retrofit to people who believed their claims the M7 already had the flare licked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas_green1 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 But Jay, you should just respond rationally and not buy the over-priced fashion-targetted collector's items. Leica has made a conscious decision that, given their technology base and labor cost structure, that they cannot compete in the market for serious, cost-justifiable, photographic equipment. They don't owe you, or anyone else, the duty to lose money in a market that they can't compete in. They decided that the fashion crowd is a market that they CAN compete in. So they are selling stuff that caters to that market. But, that being said, Cosina Voigtlander HAS determined that THEY can compete in the market for serious, yet cost effective camera gear, by addressing the Leica audience. The intelligent thing to do is to vote with your dollars for the company that you feel builds the products most suited to your needs. That's simple capitalism. As a consumer, your inalienable right is to determine where you spend your funds. If Leica doesn't cater to your needs, don't buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 fondlers more than the users. The new MP to me seems like a user Leica. Unless you have the desire for the camera to take the photo for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffrey_frey Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Let's get back to the lenses, OK? The article mentions one way digital processing can allow a loosening of lens and focusing system design. Fazal mentions another, i.e., if the chromatic aberractions of a lens are known, why not let the camera chip account for them instead of trying to design a lens without any? In fact, the sensor chip is an analog to digital converter. Since the stored data is digital anyway, there's no reason that the sensor has to see a perfect analog representation (i.e., image) of the object. Lenses today are designed and built, at great cost, to provide such a perfect analog representation. The drawback to doing optical corrections in the camera, rather than in the lens, is that it requires a lot of computing power. High resolution in a final analog print requires the processing and storage of a lot of data, and adding processing needs to the computation that is done in digital camera today--just data compression, really--will require more computing power somewhere. If you insist on a high-resolution "monitor" in the camera that will show you something like the final analog image, computational correction will have to be done inside the camera; otherwise it can be done elsewhere. If the former, storage (or readout) time, and battery power, requirements for the camera will be greater than we're used to today. But note that digital cameras are made either by electronics companies, who traditionally know little about optics, or camera companies, who traditionally know little about electronics. In time, we can hope to see a device designed as a digital camera system from the ground up--not just as a film camera with a digital sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h._p. Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 >>Leica's new management is aiming their new product at the fondlers more than the users<< Absolutely right. I'm afraid I'm one of those who think they lost the plot when they phased out the M4 and replaced it with the M5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Leica's new management is aiming their new product at the fondlers more than the users<< Absolutely right. I'm afraid I'm one of those who think they lost Fondlers, users, there has always been two types of users. Leica have aimed at both with the MP. So, what is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 A question Jay...do you feel this way just about Leica because they make cameras you want to use but don't build them exactly with you in mind?....or do you feel also that Mercedes Benz are robbers because they don't provide cars for the person on a budget with $12000 to spend on dependable transportation...and does Rolex piss you off because they don't make a good $25 plastic quartz watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas_green1 Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Bob, are you implying that the brand new Rolex I just bought at a flea market for $25 is somehow less than genuine? That can't be, because it keeps accurate time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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