Help diagnosing some development issues - Vericolor 4105 S Film

[thescarletfield]

Hello!

New here just trying to find some help from more experience people. 

I bought some expired sheet film(4x5) on auction site (vericolor 4105 S Film Exp 1973)

i sent two sheets to the lab to test shot at +1 and +2 stops from box speed. fully aware i might get no image or very underexposed image. I Just needed a baseline to start testing.

But what i got confused me way more. image link here but also attached in case this is not allowed - https://imgur.com/a/V5ywxwx

So doing the only logical thing i could do, i shot two more images and cross processed at home using DF96 (only developer i have) and some ilford rapid fixer. The idea was to see if this film was usable at all. Exposures this time was at ISO 8 and ISO 8+3stops. 

and i got a negative:  https://imgur.com/a/USnhJ7R

coated in this white residue: https://imgur.com/a/iHXlkgJ

so i don't know how to move forward from here. Did the lab mess up the first 2 sheets? or does the C41 process somehow destroyed the image? i don't have enough experience here to even know what the takeaway is?

[kmac]

Hi, The film looks usable to me judging by the crossed processed sheet, but you'll need to develop in C41 to obtain the best results that you can get for that long expired film. The colors will be abhorrent most likely if the film hasn't been frozen for a good part of the 48 years since it expired. I'm not sure what the white residue is, but with C41 there is a slight milkyness look on the processed film when it's removed from the tank, however, it disappears during drying.

How many sheets do you have? Is it worth carrying on with long expired color film? I think not unless you convert the images to B&W in post processing to at least get viewable images without the going through the impossible task of trying to revive the color degradation to something that looks normal.

Perhaps it would be better to accept your loss and move on to much newer film. It's all valuable experience though, I went through it. Unless you know expired film has been kept in a freezer, it's a lucky dip.

[maris_rusis]

Guessing by the expiry date of 1973 the film would have been manufactured at the time when C-22 was the process for color negative film.
C-22 ran at 24C while the replacement process C-41 runs much hotter at 38C and is not compatible with old film.
Ancient Vericolor can be developed in black and white chemistry to yield a negative but this negative is hard to print because of the orange mask.

[kmac]

25 minutes ago, maris_rusis said:

Guessing by the expiry date of 1973 the film would have been manufactured at the time when C-22 was the process for color negative film.
C-22 ran at 24C while the replacement process C-41 runs much hotter at 38C and is not compatible with old film.

That thought flashed through my mind as well, but as it turns out, 1972 was when the change came from C22 to C41, according to Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-22_process

I guess the OP could simply confirm which process is on the 1973 Vericolor film box. I can't find 4105 Vericolor on the internet, only the later 4106 shows up, so who knows what 4105 really is, and which developing process, it could very well be C22, and perhaps those chemicals were produced for a while after C41 came in, to develop the C22 film still in existence, that were bought just before the change over.

Personally I was developing only slide film and B&W in that era. I have never had reason to use C22, and only started using C41 in the early 80's

 

[kmac]

This link looks good for learning a bit about expired film - worth bookmarking

Scroll down for "Color Negative Film"

https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2020/08/how-to-shooting-expired-film/

[thescarletfield]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:02 PM, kmac said:

Hi, The film looks usable to me judging by the crossed processed sheet, but you'll need to develop in C41 to obtain the best results that you can get for that long expired film. The colors will be abhorrent most likely if the film hasn't been frozen for a good part of the 48 years since it expired. I'm not sure what the white residue is, but with C41 there is a slight milkyness look on the processed film when it's removed from the tank, however, it disappears during drying.

How many sheets do you have? Is it worth carrying on with long expired color film? I think not unless you convert the images to B&W in post processing to at least get viewable images without the going through the impossible task of trying to revive the color degradation to something that looks normal.

Perhaps it would be better to accept your loss and move on to much newer film. It's all valuable experience though, I went through it. Unless you know expired film has been kept in a freezer, it's a lucky dip.

i have 45 sheets left so if i can use it, i would like to. i don't expect great results but it will be good practise. Is it possible that the film just can't survive the C-41 process? I keep getting told that the first image (the one with the lines) looks like emulsion failure. I ordered some c41 chemicals and i'm gonna develop it that way at home to see what i get. 

Im disappointed in the lab though. I wish they would tell me what actually happen instead of "sheet's blank, tough luck" (it wasn't blank though)!. They also stated that it looked like C-22 film which wasn't compatible with C-41 but like shouldn't they have been able to tell me that before developing from the notches or the information i gave them. I'm just venting here....

On 4/26/2024 at 10:16 PM, kmac said:

That thought flashed through my mind as well, but as it turns out, 1972 was when the change came from C22 to C41, according to Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-22_process

I guess the OP could simply confirm which process is on the 1973 Vericolor film box. I can't find 4105 Vericolor on the internet, only the later 4106 shows up, so who knows what 4105 really is, and which developing process, it could very well be C22, and perhaps those chemicals were produced for a while after C41 came in, to develop the C22 film still in existence, that were bought just before the change over.

Personally I was developing only slide film and B&W in that era. I have never had reason to use C22, and only started using C41 in the early 80's

 

The box doesn't actually say what process it supposed to be, the literature inside just says to process in vericolor chemistry which who knows what that is. I've attached a picture of the box that i found on google.

 

i did find this link (https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Kodak_CameraFilm.html) which states:

"

• Vericolor Type S film. 120,620, and 220 rolls in packs of 5 rolls (Code VS). 35mm, 46 mm, 70mm and 3½inch bulk rolls in mainly 100foot lengths. Sheet film (Code 4105). This film corresponded to Ektacolor Professional film Type S in speed, grain size, and definition."

Ektacolor was C-22 but in that same link it states:

"Vericolor film had it’s own chemical baths and could not be processed in C-22 chemicals."

So my next steps are to process a sheet in C-41 at home to see if it survives or if i get similar results to the one's done by the lab. Maybe the automated process they have just washed the emulsion away if it's old and delicate. If it doesn't survive then i'll shoot it all and develop in black and white and scan digitally. 

 

 

[thescarletfield]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:25 PM, kmac said:

This link looks good for learning a bit about expired film - worth bookmarking

Scroll down for "Color Negative Film"

https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2020/08/how-to-shooting-expired-film/

good reading! thanks!