Nikkormat FT3 auto indexing problem

[vincent_sebastiano]

The FT 3 was the first automatic indexing Nikkormat. My problem is regardless of the lens I mount the automatic indexing on camera mount won’t go past F 16 though the lens goes to F22. Will this affect the metering on the camera? I have to assume it will a stop off . I can buy a Nikon FG20 in good condition with new seals or spend over 30 dollars to shoot and print 24 exposures. I have other film cameras, Canon FTBN, Ricoh xr 1&2s and a  Nikon N80 so don’t want to send out for a pricy repair. Hope someone may have a suggestion, any help would be greatly appreciated!

[orsetto]

The automatic indexing (AI) mechanism senses the widest aperture of the mounted lens, the smallest aperture just follows along for the ride.  So you may not really have a significant problem as long as the system is still correctly recognizing the maximum aperture when you change lenses: you may just have the minor inconvenience that it won't let you set a smaller aperture than f/16. Not perfect or proper, but still quite usable for most normal photos (many Nikkor lenses only go to f/16 or f/22 anyway, and f/22 or smaller will trigger diffraction issues diminishing sharpness).

Compare meter readings of your FT3 against your other cameras, aimed at the same subject, over the range of f/1.4 thru f/16. If your FT3 reads close to your other cameras, it is accurate up to the point it won't move past f/16. You can use it normally and not worry about having it repaired.

If your FT3 readings are significantly different from your other cameras, something is more deeply defective in the meter coupling so you won't be able to rely on the meter. You could still use your FT3 unmetered if you use another camera or a handheld accessory meter to get light readings: just transfer the settings to your FT3. Alternatively, check if your Nikkormat read error is consistent with varied lighting and shutter/aperture settings: if it is reliably off by one or two stops, you can easily compensate by setting a false film speed to fool the meter into correct readings.

The Nikkormats are wonderfully sturdy cameras, but unfortunately if they break down they are almost never worth the cost of repair. They are very tedious and tricky to disassemble for servicing compared to other Nikons, which means technicians must charge higher labor fees for repairs than most Nikkormats are worth today. The final FT3 is scarce and somewhat collectible, worth the repair cost if you intend to keep it for many years. But if you don't have a special feeling for it, I'd sell it and look for another that works properly.

Do note these older Nikkormats often suffer from dirty or corroded internal electrical meter coupling rings (carbon resistor): this can also cause inaccurate, jumpy or dead meter readouts. Probably half the surviving Nikkormat FT series bodies suffer from this malady, and/or CdS meter cells that have worn out. The Nikkormat meters either work fine, or are way off/unresponsive. Other than the meter, Nikkormats are almost indestructible and as rugged as an F/F2.

Edited February 24 by orsetto

[orsetto]

If you cannot get this Nikkormat FT3 to work for you, and want to replace it with another classic era manual Nikon body, I would suggest you look for something other than an FG20. The FG series were great little cameras in their day, with fantastic huge bright viewfinders, but they haven't aged well and many are developing electromechanical issues today. 

Instead, look for a Nikon EL2 (autoexposure sister of the FT3) or the first generation Nikon FE (autoexposure) or FM (manual exposure). These three are affordable, easy to find in good working condition, and notably more reliable than the smaller EM/FG bodies. The FE2/FM2 are also good choices but much more expensive due to their cult followings: if you don't need 1/250 flash sync or 1/4000th top shutter speed, the earlier FE/FM are identical and much cheaper.

Edited February 24 by orsetto

[vincent_sebastiano]

8 hours ago, orsetto said:

If you cannot get this Nikkormat FT3 to work for you, and want to replace it with another classic era manual Nikon body, I would suggest you look for something other than an FG20. The FG series were great little cameras in their day, with fantastic huge bright viewfinders, but they haven't aged well and many are developing electromechanical issues today. 

Instead, look for a Nikon EL2 (autoexposure sister of the FT3) or the first generation Nikon FE (autoexposure) or FM (manual exposure). These three are affordable, easy to find in good working condition, and notably more reliable than the smaller EM/FG bodies. The FE2/FM2 are also good choices but much more expensive due to their cult followings: if you don't need 1/250 flash sync or 1/4000th top shutter speed, the earlier FE/FM are identical and much cheaper.

 

[vincent_sebastiano]

I had the same auto indexing problem 12 years ago with the el2! The auto index tab would move very slowly when I changed f stops. It had a bad battery drain even though I would carefully turn it off so I gave it away. I am also considering a FM but of course more expensive. Though I would rather get a mechanical Nikon I may consider a Nikon n2000 so my non autofocus lenses have a body. At 72 a bright viewfinder is helpful. 

[orsetto]

Two failed camera bodies? You've had an unusually bad run with the Nikon AI coupling!! It almost never fails like that on most classic AI film cameras. The only coupling issues I've ever experienced were with the goofy AI-retrofitted Nikon F2 DP-11 or DP-12 meter prisms: these use an entirely different inverted coupler/track which is more vulnerable to impact damage, bending, or seizing.

Re aging eyes: I recently had best-laid plans disrupted by vision changes myself.  My myopia had been fairly stable for the past decade, so I decided to splurge and track down diopter correction lenses for all of my dozen classic Nikon film cameras. This took all of 2021 to acquire at a cost of about $150, since I needed the somewhat rare 0 or +0.5 diopters. This made all my Nikons much easier to focus, until they suddenly began getting blurry again a few months ago. To my vast annoyance, I was diagnosed with rapid-onset cataracts in my viewing eye: after corrective surgery all my diopters will be useless, and they're difficult to resell so thats $150 and a lot of acquisition effort wasted.

While I didn't like the plastic feel or handling personally, the viewfinder of the FG really is stunning: the most enormous I've ever seen (a bit larger than even the huge Olympus OM or Pentax ME finders). A shame Nikon couldn't find a away to upgrade nicer bodies like the FM, FE or F3 with the FG finder: its so much larger, brighter and contrastier than those it almost embarrasses them. This alone might be worth the risk of FG reliability issues in your case: if you don't pay too much and get at least a couple years use from an FG, just discard it if/when it breaks. 

I don't remember the viewfinder of the N2000 or N2020: it may or may not have been carried over from the FG. The built-in motors and crude plastic bodies were a big "no" for me during the film era, although I did rather like the later more-refined N8008 (which is now finally getting the respect it always deserved: prices seem to be going up sharply).

Edited February 24 by orsetto

[vincent_sebastiano]

Not just 2 bodiesI also purchased 2 FE’s and both had shutters lock up after one shot! They were in beautiful condition and I reached out on Photo. Net and JDMvW kindly sent me a photo of under the camera plate where I could release the shutter . Eventually got tired of this, bought second FE and the same problem occurred so I sent it back. Your suggestion to compare metering with a second camera up to F16 is a good one and I will try that today. BTW, the N2000 has the Nikon K 2 Briteview screen which is excellent 

[AlanKlein]

I have a Nikon N6006 after 35 years that works superbly.  Metering is perfect as is the accuracy of the electronic shutter.  It has PSAM modes, braketing, flash, etc.  Power winding and rewinding. And cheap currently.  I also have an FT3 but the metering is intermittent.  It;s better and easier to use the N6006. 

N6006 samples with Tmax.

 

[vincent_sebastiano]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:16 PM, orsetto said:

The automatic indexing (AI) mechanism senses the widest aperture of the mounted lens, the smallest aperture just follows along for the ride.  So you may not really have a significant problem as long as the system is still correctly recognizing the maximum aperture when you change lenses: you may just have the minor inconvenience that it won't let you set a smaller aperture than f/16. Not perfect or proper, but still quite usable for most normal photos (many Nikkor lenses only go to f/16 or f/22 anyway, and f/22 or smaller will trigger diffraction issues diminishing sharpness).

Compare meter readings of your FT3 against your other cameras, aimed at the same subject, over the range of f/1.4 thru f/16. If your FT3 reads close to your other cameras, it is accurate up to the point it won't move past f/16. You can use it normally and not worry about having it repaired.

If your FT3 readings are significantly different from your other cameras, something is more deeply defective in the meter coupling so you won't be able to rely on the meter. You could still use your FT3 unmetered if you use another camera or a handheld accessory meter to get light readings: just transfer the settings to your FT3. Alternatively, check if your Nikkormat read error is consistent with varied lighting and shutter/aperture settings: if it is reliably off by one or two stops, you can easily compensate by setting a false film speed to fool the meter into correct readings.

The Nikkormats are wonderfully sturdy cameras, but unfortunately if they break down they are almost never worth the cost of repair. They are very tedious and tricky to disassemble for servicing compared to other Nikons, which means technicians must charge higher labor fees for repairs than most Nikkormats are worth today. The final FT3 is scarce and somewhat collectible, worth the repair cost if you intend to keep it for many years. But if you don't have a special feeling for it, I'd sell it and look for another that works properly.

Do note these older Nikkormats often suffer from dirty or corroded internal electrical meter coupling rings (carbon resistor): this can also cause inaccurate, jumpy or dead meter readouts. Probably half the surviving Nikkormat FT series bodies suffer from this malady, and/or CdS meter cells that have worn out. The Nikkormat meters either work fine, or are way off/unresponsive. Other than the meter, Nikkormats are almost indestructible and as rugged as an F/F2.

Well I have compared meter readings for the Ft3 versus a manual Ricoh XR1s and aperture priority Ricoh XR2s and the FTE appears to be off by about a stop. Don’t know if having a new alkaline battery in the FT3 versus new silver oxides in the Ricohs may have created a slight difference. I will be shooting Kodak gold 200 ISO so this may not matter much.

 

 

 

[orsetto]

The FT3 is designed for the silver oxide but usually does equally well with alkalines unless they've tapered their voltage from age. Try swapping the silver batteries from one of your other cameras to be absolutely sure the misread isn't battery related.

If it still reads about a stop off, consistently, there are two possible causes.

One would be the AI ring snagging at f/16, potentially meaning the ring is also misloading the maximum aperture when the lens is mounted. Another possibility: in my experience: even a perfectly functioning Nikkormat FTn, FT2 or FT3 will have an odd tendency to read about 2/3rd to a stop off from any other Nikon camera (or other brand). All of my Nikkormat meters consistently underexpose by about 2/3rd stop. So despite the AI ring issue, the meter in your FT3 may actually be reading just fine within its typical variance.

Whatever the underlying cause, as long as your FT3 meter error is consistently reading one stop off, you can easily compensate by setting a film speed that counteracts the error. If its underexposing by a stop, set the ASA ring to 100 instead of 200 for your roll of Kodacolor Gold. Lots of old cameras require fudging the film speed setting, even back when they were new: meters can vary quite a bit while still being "accurate".

Edited February 27 by orsetto

[BeBu Lamar]

 I can't see how it doesn't allow you to set f/22. Auto Indexing is really no indexing. 

[vincent_sebastiano]

On 2/27/2024 at 6:30 PM, orsetto said:

The FT3 is designed for the silver oxide but usually does equally well with alkalines unless they've tapered their voltage from age. Try swapping the silver batteries from one of your other cameras to be absolutely sure the misread isn't battery related.

If it still reads about a stop off, consistently, there are two possible causes.

One would be the AI ring snagging at f/16, potentially meaning the ring is also misloading the maximum aperture when the lens is mounted. Another possibility: in my experience: even a perfectly functioning Nikkormat FTn, FT2 or FT3 will have an odd tendency to read about 2/3rd to a stop off from any other Nikon camera (or other brand). All of my Nikkormat meters consistently underexpose by about 2/3rd stop. So despite the AI ring issue, the meter in your FT3 may actually be reading just fine within its typical variance.

Whatever the underlying cause, as long as your FT3 meter error is consistently reading one stop off, you can easily compensate by setting a film speed that counteracts the error. If its underexposing by a stop, set the ASA ring to 100 instead of 200 for your roll of Kodacolor Gold. Lots of old cameras require fudging the film speed setting, even back when they were new: meters can vary quite a bit while still being "accurate".

 

[vincent_sebastiano]

The camera was CLA by John Titterington in 2008 and and I purchased from him that year along with Canon FTBN recalibrated for alkaline battery. I tend to use that a lot which is why I didn’t use the FT3. I am going to shoot a roll of Kodak Gold , it expired 12/22 and kept in a dark and dry closet so it should be fine. I also have a Nikon N 80 and would like a backup came that will let me meter with my pre autofocus lens ( AIS). Though not mechanical, I believe the 8008s with let me center weight meter in aperture priority and manual and there are many bodies available in the $50 range with the K2 Briteview focusing screen. Would you recommend this or should I cross my fingers and go for another FE after my first two had the shutter advance lock up?  

[orsetto]

4 hours ago, vincent_sebastiano said:

Though not mechanical, I believe the 8008s with let me center weight meter in aperture priority and manual and there are many bodies available in the $50 range with the K2 Briteview focusing screen. Would you recommend this or should I cross my fingers and go for another FE after my first two had the shutter advance lock up?  

In the world of vintage film cameras, its sometimes a good idea to respect a particularly specific run of bad luck with a model or two: it might mean that camera is just not a good prospect for you, no matter how wonderful it may be on paper or how popular and reliable it is for other people. Decades after they were made, Nikon FE and FM have a better than average rep for durability and reliability, but a small stubborn percentage do seem to pop up with film advance issues.

More often than not it is due to some crud that can be cleaned away easily, or releasing a stuck pawl, after taking off the bottom plate. Sometimes it requires a deeper repair dive, which as with many other common cameras is not cost effective vs just buying another example and crossing your fingers. Since you have been burned twice by the normally reliable FE, and another time by the similar EL2, perhaps take it as a sign to try something else.

If you are comfortable with the sleek Nikon AF film bodies, you can take advantage of their (usually) better pricing and availability, their excellent modern meters that use common household batteries, and the ruggedness of peak early models like the N8008s/F801s (which does meter with manual focus AI lenses and has an upgraded viewfinder, AF, and shutter over the slightly older N8008/F801). Drawback with AF film bodies is they have no split image or microprism focus aids in the finder, so MF lenses can be tricky to focus unless you get the screen changed out (possible with 8008s/F801s if you can find a compatible screen).

NOW is the time to buy one or two of them. Long forgotten and invisible to film hipsters because it wasn't "retro" enough to pass as street jewelry, the 8008s/801s has recently been "rediscovered" by more practical film shooters so prices have gone from "almost free" to "skyrocketing". Despite all the whining posts re the dearth of any decent film stocks worth shooting, we seem to be at the probable peak era of cultural fascination with film cameras. Rising prices and scarcity of legendary vintage models with "classic looks" have shifted the craze toward once-disparaged electronic AF bodies: they're becoming sought after.

The other option would be getting your FT3 properly serviced despite the unappealing cost. Its a dead reliable design aside from the CdS meter (which is found dead as a doornail or wildly inaccurate just as often in comparable Canon bodies like the FTb, you got lucky with yours). Or perhaps look for the earlier FT2: exactly the same as FT3 but manual indexing (not a big deal at all) and far more common.

If you REALLY want to roll the dice and test your luck one final time with the compact Nikons, get the original FM (mechanical sister to the FE). These have the newer gallium meter cells with LED display that almost never fails or dies unless the camera was abused. You'd still run a slight risk of the lockup issue you've run into with previous FE and EL2 bodies, but this seems much less common with the FM.

The later FM2 is a questionable choice today given the ludicrous price premium over original FM. Almost no one has a definite absolute use case requiring the 1/250 flash sync speed pr 1/4000 top shutter speed: these features in 2024 are "wants" not "needs". The one big advantage is ability to easily upgrade the focus screen to the ultimate K3 that came out later for FM3A (the most overpriced overhyped Nikon ever, eclipsing even the deadly "original F with plain prism" cult for wacky obsession).

The "gotcha" with being able to upgrade the FM2/FE2/FE screen? Good luck finding a K3 at a reasonable price (or any price, really). With the K3 unobtanium as an accessory, its more practical to settle for the older cameras with K or K2 (or leapfrog the manual focus era altogether and jump straight into a Nikon AF film body with brighter screen).

Edited March 2 by orsetto

[vincent_sebastiano]

The camera was CLA by John Titterington in 2008 and and I purchased from him that year along with Canon FTBN recalibrated for alkaline battery. I tend to use that a lot which is why I didn’t use the FT3. I am going to shoot a roll of Kodak Gold , it expired 12/22 and kept in a dark and dry closet so it should be fine. I also have a Nikon N 80 and would like a backup came that will let me meter with my pre autofocus lens ( AIS). Though not mechanical, I believe the 8008s with let me center weight meter in aperture priority and manual and there are many bodies available in the $50 range with the K2 Briteview focusing screen. Would you recommend this or should I cross my fingers and go for another FE after my first two had the shutter advance lock up?  

[vincent_sebastiano]

After repeatedly removing bottom the plate to release stuck pawl on the FE I am in no mood to begin again. Buying the 8008s before price starts to rise is good advice!  I think I got lucky with the FTBN because it was professionally refurbished. If I had used the FT3 more often I probably wouldn’t have had an index problem . I have loaded the Nikkormat with a new roll of film and even if the prints are fine I will spend $50/60 for a good backup and $15 for a light seal kit for a beautiful  Konica T2 I bought a few years ago 
 

 

!

[orsetto]

The Konica Autoreflex T series has its own design charm, and most of the Hexanon lenses are superb (tho a lot harder to find now than other brands). But be warned: for better and worse a T2 or T3 is essentially just a Nikkormat FT with a different lens mount and shutter priority AE.

The good: Konica has a rugged metal body like Nikkormat, and shares the same indestructible Copal Square mechanical shutter. The body design is arguably more aesthetically pleasing, and the shutter speed control is in the traditional top deck location preferred by most photographers. The AE system was years ahead of its time as an SLR feature, and very convenient.

The bad: the Konicas use the same obsolete CdS meter electronics as Nikkormat, which is often completely dead or wildly inaccurate. If the CdS meter does still work, you'll find the Konica AE system is a one trick pony: the camera is meant to operate in AE at all times  (manual meter mode is kinda hacky). Unlike the Nikkormat FT2/FT3, the Konica meters need a pair of odd size long discontinued mercury batteries. Modern substitutes can be made to work,  but not easily due to the uncommon size and tricky battery compartment.

The Konica T3 is one of my favorite cameras ever  but I rarely use it due to erratic meter and hacky battery issues. The fantastic 50mm f/1.4 Hexanon works great adapted to mirrorless digital, so at least I can enjoy the lens.

If you have some Konica lenses, the best surviving body to use them on is the later TC. Not as nicely built as T2 or T3, with a smaller range of shutter speeds (1/8 - 1/1000 + B), but the smaller lighter plastic body is convenient, the viewfinder is brighter and the meters often still work well. Nice underrated "user" camera.

Edited March 3 by orsetto

[vincent_sebastiano]

I purchased the T2 as it was my first SLR camera in 1971 and stolen 6 years later

[vincent_sebastiano]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:56 AM, orsetto said:

Two failed camera bodies? You've had an unusually bad run with the Nikon AI coupling!! It almost never fails like that on most classic AI film cameras. The only coupling issues I've ever experienced were with the goofy AI-retrofitted Nikon F2 DP-11 or DP-12 meter prisms: these use an entirely different inverted coupler/track which is more vulnerable to impact damage, bending, or seizing.

Re aging eyes: I recently had best-laid plans disrupted by vision changes myself.  My myopia had been fairly stable for the past decade, so I decided to splurge and track down diopter correction lenses for all of my dozen classic Nikon film cameras. This took all of 2021 to acquire at a cost of about $150, since I needed the somewhat rare 0 or +0.5 diopters. This made all my Nikons much easier to focus, until they suddenly began getting blurry again a few months ago. To my vast annoyance, I was diagnosed with rapid-onset cataracts in my viewing eye: after corrective surgery all my diopters will be useless, and they're difficult to resell so thats $150 and a lot of acquisition effort wasted.

While I didn't like the plastic feel or handling personally, the viewfinder of the FG really is stunning: the most enormous I've ever seen (a bit larger than even the huge Olympus OM or Pentax ME finders). A shame Nikon couldn't find a away to upgrade nicer bodies like the FM, FE or F3 with the FG finder: its so much larger, brighter and contrastier than those it almost embarrasses them. This alone might be worth the risk of FG reliability issues in your case: if you don't pay too much and get at least a couple years use from an FG, just discard it if/when it breaks. 

I don't remember the viewfinder of the N2000 or N2020: it may or may not have been carried over from the FG. The built-in motors and crude plastic bodies were a big "no" for me during the film era, although I did rather like the later more-refined N8008 (which is now finally getting the respect it always deserved: prices seem to be going up sharply).

I purchased the T2 as it was my first SLR camera in 1971 and stolen 6 years later. I did buy a Nikon 8008s body on Sunday and received it yesterday. Camera is in beautiful condition with new batteries. Also came with the original manual and a NIKKOR 35-105 f3.5 -4.5 AIS zoom plus small camera bag.  Not bad for $49 plus $7 shipping!