confusion between two tominion 105mm f4.5 shutter lenses help please

[andrew_spence1]

I have a barrel version in a polaroid mp-4 no 1 size shutter with max shutter speed of 125th second from a copy camera  and

i have another version that has 2 groups of elements with the shutter and iris in between the 2 lens groups in a copal no 0 shutter with max shutter speed of 500th second

can any one tell me the difference between these 2 lenses.

Everything on the net seems to refer to the no 1 shutter lens version.

i have used both on the same 6x9 cm view camera and can say that the barrel lens version in the no1 shutter has slight softness on the far edges of an 8x10 print while the 

no 0 version is totally sharp across the whole frame and and the no 0 version will also illuminate a 5x4 negative but ive never used it on 5x4.

Both i assume have a different optical formula from the results i got.

Id really like to know what the no 0 shutter version was used for , it just looks to me like a standard sort of no 0 shutter lens for 6x9 negatives like the mamiya press camera lenses

i just dont know

has anyone any thoughts

regards Andrew

[dan_fromm2]

Both are Tessar types.  The MP-4 lens is not in a shutter, it is mounted on a shutter.  That is, the glasses are in a barrel that has a diaphragm and the barrel screws into the front of a #1.  All MP-4 lenses are like that.

I'm not sure which camera your second lens, in a #0, came from.  My first thought was Polaroid CU-5 Gel Cam, but as far as I know all of the lenses for the CU-5 except the 17 -- I've had one -- are in #1 press (self-cocking) shutters.  The 17, like the MP-4 17, screws into the front of a #1.

My second thought is that your second lens came from a non-Polaroid Gel Cam oscilloscope camera.  The Shackman 7000 comes to mind, but 'scope cameras' lenses are usually in press shutters, not cock-and-shoot like yours.

I've had all of the MP-4 lenses except the 105/4.5.  My reaction to them is that although there are better lenses than the short ones (17, 35 and 50), good examples of the short ones are all good enough to use.  I've had bad examples of the 35 and 50.  The 75 is mediocre and all of the 135s I've had were awful.

I've had a couple of 127/4.7 Tominon CU-5 lenses.  Both very good.  However, based on my relatively small sample of 35 and 50 mm MP-4 lenses, Tominon's quality control was poor.

Conclusion, which I'm sure you've reached, use the 105 in #0 and be happy.  Don't use the MP-4 lens but save its shutter for front mounting other lenses in barrel.  Adapters will probably be required.

For curiosity, which 2x3 view camera do you have? 

[andrew_spence1]

Thanks Dan for taking the time for your post

I used both of then in one of my Busche Pressman model C cameras at f8-16 

yes ill just go ahead and use the no 0 version as you say it seems to be just like any other 105mm shutter lens and is very sharp

ive used the tominion MP-4lenses  alot ill share with you my results as follows

35mm f4.5 - i have this lens in a helicoid and use it on an APSC digital mirrorless cameras ,it gives results similar to the american lens baby lens                       i have i like it alot

50mm f4.5 - ive used it on APSC and Full frame and gives excellent results on digital  and on film it gives sharp across the frame on 6x6 with      nice artistic vignetteing  but i like the look on a large print and i also like the 6x9 versions too with heavier vignetting

75mm f4.5 - this lens is rubbish on digital it produces a center spot of low contrast in most of the shots on APSC and Full frame and has weird    patches of sharpnes however on a view camera its a different story on 6x9 or 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 negatives it is sharp in the center and                          noticeably swirly outer edges if you crop to  6x6 the swirly effect is still there i like the effect .it sort of looks like an old world                              look or as a friend of mine said it looks like what most people would think a picture from an old camera should look like its an                              effect i like

105mm f4.5 - on digital is sharp across the frame but on 6x9 or 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 negs its softish on the far edges and on 6x6 is sharp across the        whole frame has nice contrast 

135mm f4.5 - on digital it gives sharp colourfull images and what i can only describe as similar to what is described as the leica glow  that ive      heard about on the  internet on back lit subjects which looks good to me , On film this works great on 5x4 negatives and on 6x9                          or 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 i have 4 of these lenses

but have only used 2 of them so far on various cameras including a Mamiya RB 67

Anyway Dan i hope you find this usefull and thanks again for your reply i hope my reply wasnt too long winded if you have any questions just ask me

i have an adapter to fit enlarger lenses to the MP-4 which i havnt got round to using yet its a rafcamera adapter m39x1f to m40xo.75m 

i glued a brass Lancaster lens in one of them and the other one is for the enlarger lenses

regards Andrew

Edited February 19 by andrew_spence1
missed some information

[dan_fromm2]

Andrew, thanks for your lengthy and informative reply.

I take it that you shot your MP-4 Tominons at distance.  Since they were offered as macro lenses to be used at magnifications > 1:1, that's how I tried them out, except for the 135.  Using them at distance never occurred to me.  Of course, I was shooting film then and was most interested in using them on 2x3, which the shorter (< 105 mm) ones won't cover at distance.  And I never had a 105.

I have heaps of adapters (SKGrimes, rafcamera wasn't around back then) for mounting them and other macro lenses on Nikon bellows, LTM extension tubes and #1 shutters.

ATB,

Dan

[andrew_spence1]

Dan

yes they were shot at distance

i just kept testing them till i found some way of using them in a way i liked either on digital of film

it was an interesting project at the time and i use them when i feel the need to knowing what they can do

ive just finished a 6x10.5 zone focus camera with an mp4 shutter and 135mm tominion on it with one of the helicoids from  the internet shop and i cant wait to use it i know from  my tests it will be good ive build a few zone focus cameras with various lenses i must put some photos on this site i like using them and i seem to get good shots with them

regards Andrew

Edited February 20 by andrew_spence1
addad a bit more

[kmac]

I have a 105mm f4.5 Tominon attached to an old 2A Kodak folder. I'm not sure if that qualifies as large format, but I've exposed both 70mm and 6x9 film with pleasing results, for me at least. The shutter has a top speed of 125sec and cable release only. I don't know what number shutter it is, it doesn't say. The seller had bargain prices on his items, so I snapped this Tominon up to experiment with, it was listed as covering 4x5. The 70mm negs from the old Kodak are 4 3/8" x 2 1/2" by rule measurement. The film flatness appears to be pretty good, but I usually shoot at f8 or smaller aperture opening. The sharpness on the edges and corners seem good on this expired 70mm film, if you can appreciate that I get a gross lack of quality after resizing and transferring to Photo.net, it looks terrible, but not so full size on my computer screen, I was very happy with it's sharpness right across the image, I couldn't see anything that looked soft or blurred in the extremities, I'm pleased to say. The smaller 6x9 shots on fresh film from the same lens and camera were even more magical, less coverage, which I guess would suit larger aperture openings such as f4.5, but I haven't tried that yet. The experimenting goes on.

70mm image, unedited except for spotting. Please excuse the lack of quality due to uploading to Photo.net, I've yet to get that problem sorted out.

 

[andrew_spence1]

kmac

thanks for your reply i have 2 of these barrel tominion 105 f4.5 lens that screw into the front of the mp-4 shutter

im going to test the other one i have to see what the far edges on 6x9 look like Dan was saying there were variations in quality control

i like your photo its definitely sharp across the frame i hope my other one is like this if it is ill be using it on 6x9

the one thats soft on the far edges i was planning on using it on 6x6 negatives as its sharp across a 6x6 frame so ill be keeping it

its interesting testing lenses like this it makes great projects to do

thanks again Andrew