Help with Yashica 12

[nateseff]

Hi all,

Thanks for any help in advance.

I've acquired a Yashica 12 that was locked up, took it to be serviced, and now everything works minus 1/250th every now and again.

I've had a similar issue with my Kodak Medalist at 1/400th, and nearly fixed the issue by removing the oil that was stuck on the shutter blades.

Is this what's happening to my Yashica 12? I guess the better question would be, why do some leaf shutters simply not fire at higher shutter speeds? Is it because the blades are stuck for the duration of the spring movement?

Looking forward to what everyone has to say - definitely not hoping to pay for another CLA. 

[Niels - NHSN]

If you paid good money for a CLA, the tech didn't deliver and should fix the problem at no extra charge.

It is not always possible to make old shutters to work fully within specs of for example 1/3 +/- of the speeds printed on the dial, but the tech should be aware of deviations from specs and inform you accordingly if he/she cant meet the specs on certain speeds.

I should add that during the Corona years I have sent around 10 jobs out for overhauls to reputable  repair techs around EU and 40% had to be returned for further work. Everyone makes mistakes now and then, and I never paid to have them fixing their own problems - of course.

Edited November 17, 2022 by NHSN

[John Seaman]

10 hours ago, nateseff said:

nearly fixed the issue by removing the oil that was stuck on the shutter blades.

Not sure what you mean by this. I'd be surprised if sticky blades are responsible, they are usually more obvious at slow speeds. When you say 1/250 doesn't work now and again, do you mean that the blades don't open, or that nothing happens at all?

I agree with Niels that the person who did the CLA should fix it, but who knows, it might just come back with the same or another problem. The tech might not even have realised there was an issue as it's of an intermittent nature. Sometimes with old cameras, issues have to be accepted and worked around.

Edited November 17, 2022 by John Seaman

[nateseff]

14 hours ago, NHSN said:

If you paid good money for a CLA, the tech didn't deliver and should fix the problem at no extra charge.

It is not always possible to make old shutters to work fully within specs of for example 1/3 +/- of the speeds printed on the dial, but the tech should be aware of deviations from specs and inform you accordingly if he/she cant meet the specs on certain speeds.

I should add that during the Corona years I have sent around 10 jobs out for overhauls to reputable  repair techs around EU and 40% had to be returned for further work. Everyone makes mistakes now and then, and I never paid to have them fixing their own problems - of course.

Good to know about that repair success rate - I'll definitely keep that in mind for future repairs should things go south.

I've had a few cameras repaired by this guy that have come back fine, he also helped with my Minolta Super A which no one else could.

It's a shame because the last few cameras (including the Kodak Medalist) I took to him were fixed about 95% of the way, but there was always just one thing off. He fixed my Rolleiflex and my Retina IIa and haven't (knock on wood) had any issues with them yet. There's definitely no chance he'd work on it again to fix for free, unfortunately it's not that type of repair shop.

If it were a well known, reputable repair guy then yes I would 100000% send it back but that won't be the case here.

I can get into the shutter and mechanics for the Yashica I might be able to fix it if there's a common issue with leaf shutters like this, I've actually fixed my Mat 124g before but it just needed some lubrication in a few spots once it was opened up.

I just want to know if there could be another cause for the shutter failing to open on ONLY that speed and possibly 1/500th? Have had no issues on slower speeds.

For the Medalist, it came back to me with a lot of oil on the shutter blades which is unfortunate, because extensive research has told me Supermatic no.2 shutters should always run dry. After I cleaned it up AFTER the repair, the shutter would always fire but the blades wouldn't always open up. I'd have to dry fire it a couple of times and then it started working on all speeds EXCEPT for 1/400th, where it would fire 2-3 times then just stop opening but you could hear the springs working.

Since I've opened up the shutter all the way down to the blade assembly (couldn't get in farther because of a stuck screw), I can see that everything with the spring/functions that make 1/400th fire working, just the blades sometimes won't open for one reason or another. Once I cleaned the oil away, it fired every time for about 2 days then when it got cold, it stuck again on the first first but then opened for each shutter press after that.

The ONLY thing that makes sense to me is that there's something on the shutter blades themselves that prevent them from opening just long enough for the entirety of the spring actuation. But on all the other speeds it's just long enough to unstick itself and open - so it seems.

Edited November 17, 2022 by nateseff

[nateseff]

14 hours ago, John Seaman said:

Not sure what you mean by this. I'd be surprised if sticky blades are responsible, they are usually more obvious at slow speeds. When you say 1/250 doesn't work now and again, do you mean that the blades don't open, or that nothing happens at all?

I agree with Niels that the person who did the CLA should fix it, but who knows, it might just come back with the same or another problem. The tech might not even have realised there was an issue as it's of an intermittent nature. Sometimes with old cameras, issues have to be accepted and worked around.

Yea I might just need to never use 1/400 since all the other speeds seem to work without issue now.

Originally when the Medalist came back to me, the shutter blades were COVERED in oil and would open slowly on most speeds and after a few fires, would work up to 1/200 (sometimes the blades wouldn't close all the way on slower speeds), but either wouldn't open at all for 1/400 OR open once or twice after those first few dry fires, and then lock up again.

That's what led me to believe that the oil on the blades was causing the issue, so went into it and cleaned them up (other than the inner most assembly). I ended up taking the whole thing apart and it took me days to get it back together the right way.

Once all the oil was out, ALL of the speeds worked for about two days every time I dry fired it. Finally, the day I took it out to shoot, the first dry fire at 1/400 the blades didn't open again, but after that it started firing again.

To clarify, all of the actions/springs work - you can hear them all working every dry fire, and I could see them work when I had the shutter opened up. For whatever reason though, sometimes the blades just won't open on 1/400 even though everything sounds like it's working when it fires.

So back to the Yashica - this seems like almost the exact same problem just on a different speed, and looks like there's no oil on it compared to the Medalist. The Yashica also sounds like everything works inside as you wind and cock it, but then when you fire the shutter the blades don't open only for that speed. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by nateseff

[c_watson1]

With respect, it's a 50+ year-old camera that wasn't exactly a top-shelf model. Finding a tech in 2022 capable of a repair isn't easy or cheap. If it's 6x6 you like, you might look into newer gear rather than nursing vintage gear back to health.

[John Seaman]

8 hours ago, nateseff said:

So back to the Yashica - this seems like almost the exact same problem just on a different speed, and looks like there's no oil on it compared to the Medalist. The Yashica also sounds like everything works inside as you wind and cock it, but then when you fire the shutter the blades don't open only for that speed. 

Thanks for the clarification. To be honest, your responses make it clear to me that you have much more knowledge and competence on fixing cameras than I will ever have!

[kmac]

Tricky one!

Oil on the blades usually affects all speeds. If all the oil is cleaned off and the blades are then dry, any faulty speeds after that would more likely be caused by a mechanical problem with just those speeds or just one speed, as you said, it's the 1/250 in your Yashica. It sounds to me like there is a spring loaded part that's not catching the pin on the cam ring that actuates the blades when the shutter is fired. When I repair shutters, I work them and stare at them for hours on end watching what every lever and spring does. The fault hits me in the eye after a while. I did one the other night and the fault was damaged teeth on a quadrant gear hidden under a screwed down plate. That gear is part of the speed selection mechanism and determines the speed of each selection. Needless to say, the shutter is now useless except for the two highest speeds, and that's only because the gear is working on the remaining good teeth, 3 out of a total of about 9 teeth. I'll still use the camera, albeit with only two speeds, because it's very rare and finding another shutter for it might be near impossible.

[rodeo_joe1]

Some shutter designs bump up the spring tension on the top-most speed. This is easily felt on some old Compur shutters, where the cocking action is decidedly stiffer on the top speed, as an auxilliary spring is engaged. 

Having said that, I've never worked on a Yashica TLR shutter, but it wouldn't surprise me if a broken or displaced spring was the culprit.

I did have a similar issue with a Mamiya 645 70mm leaf-shutter lens - great optics, awful Seiko shutter. That not only had oily blades but because of the sticking a spring had torn itself off its mounting post. A fairly simple repair once I located where the dangling spring had come from. (Look for a grooved post with nothing in the groove.)

Good luck getting into the shutter! 

Edited November 18, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[nateseff]

 

On 11/17/2022 at 4:20 PM, c_watson1 said:

With respect, it's a 50+ year-old camera that wasn't exactly a top-shelf model. Finding a tech in 2022 capable of a repair isn't easy or cheap. If it's 6x6 you like, you might look into newer gear rather than nursing vintage gear back to health.

But nursing vintage gear back to health is why we're here! jk I definitely understand what you mean, probably would've saved a lot of money in the long run if i went this route but as someone who has a working mat 124g, i'd choose this over it time and time again if it worked properly. too much plastic in the new one.

And agreed, it's pretty tough to find people who can service things properly especially for these older less known models. this, thankfully, shares most of the same design as the mat 124g so i was thinking it'd be straightforward. apparently not.

 

Also apologies for the late reply, i got locked out awhile back and was just searching through my email today and saw photo.net did indeed send me a reset email.

[nateseff]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:48 PM, John Seaman said:

Thanks for the clarification. To be honest, your responses make it clear to me that you have much more knowledge and competence on fixing cameras than I will ever have!

Probably not at all hahaha only reason why im fairly confident about the medalist diagnosis is because ive just about read everything i can and have watched every repair vid out there for it trying to get it to work again. it's my dream camera, 6x9 + durable design (apparently not this particular shutter though!)

 

and apologies for the late reply, i got locked out awhile back and didnt find the reset email until today. 

[nateseff]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:48 AM, kmac said:

Tricky one!

Oil on the blades usually affects all speeds. If all the oil is cleaned off and the blades are then dry, any faulty speeds after that would more likely be caused by a mechanical problem with just those speeds or just one speed, as you said, it's the 1/250 in your Yashica. It sounds to me like there is a spring loaded part that's not catching the pin on the cam ring that actuates the blades when the shutter is fired. When I repair shutters, I work them and stare at them for hours on end watching what every lever and spring does. The fault hits me in the eye after a while. I did one the other night and the fault was damaged teeth on a quadrant gear hidden under a screwed down plate. That gear is part of the speed selection mechanism and determines the speed of each selection. Needless to say, the shutter is now useless except for the two highest speeds, and that's only because the gear is working on the remaining good teeth, 3 out of a total of about 9 teeth. I'll still use the camera, albeit with only two speeds, because it's very rare and finding another shutter for it might be near impossible.

This is probably what's going on with the Yashica. I've given up on the medalist - until i found another one the other day for a great parts price and ended up pulling the trigger. the body was destroyed but somehow the shutter seems intact! switched them out and it looks like i MIGHT have a working medalist. finally. fingers crossed though waiting for my film to arrive next week to test it out fully.

 

As for the yashica, there's a good chance it could be something like that. in fact, im pretty positive since it's so finicky and it does seem to happen every other like 5 fires, which could make sense that it's a teeth issue. will i tear apart another to make this one work? good chance no, but im going to open it up regardless to see since i've already paid for a bad repair job. definitely won't buy another one - maybe i should just stick with the mat 124g. such a shame.

 

Here's a clip of it dry firing, you can see how intermittent the blades are with the shutter actuation - 

 

[nateseff]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:30 AM, rodeo_joe1 said:

Some shutter designs bump up the spring tension on the top-most speed. This is easily felt on some old Compur shutters, where the cocking action is decidedly stiffer on the top speed, as an auxilliary spring is engaged. 

Having said that, I've never worked on a Yashica TLR shutter, but it wouldn't surprise me if a broken or displaced spring was the culprit.

I did have a similar issue with a Mamiya 645 70mm leaf-shutter lens - great optics, awful Seiko shutter. That not only had oily blades but because of the sticking a spring had torn itself off its mounting post. A fairly simple repair once I located where the dangling spring had come from. (Look for a grooved post with nothing in the groove.)

Good luck getting into the shutter!

Thank you! It is somewhat comforting to know what to be looking for now. definitely feel like i wont be going in blind at least haha. if it is a broken spring or tooth, not sure what i can do but if it's just somehow off it's mount/post and displaced, then that'd be ideal and can be fixed. i dont have many extra parts laying around and definitely am not one that can fabricate any sort of parts so if it's something that's broken, guess im SOL...

 

As for the medalist, the spring tension is bumped up by a little turning knob that puts additional pressure on the spring. that's what leads me to believe the shutter actuation completely finishes before the blades can even open as if they were stuck. was actually trying that same shutter earlier today and it wouldn't even fire on other slower speeds, giving me a half 'click' sound until finally it "unlocked' itself at 1/200 and after that everything was firing again.

[kmac]

4 hours ago, nateseff said:

As for the yashica, there's a good chance it could be something like that. in fact, im pretty positive since it's so finicky and it does seem to happen every other like 5 fires, which could make sense that it's a teeth issue. will i tear apart another to make this one work? good chance no, but im going to open it up regardless to see since i've already paid for a bad repair job. definitely won't buy another one - maybe i should just stick with the mat 124g. such a shame.

 

Here's a clip of it dry firing, you can see how intermittent the blades are with the shutter actuation - 

The video clip is a great help. We can see that the shutter is firing healthy enough, but you really should send it back to the repairer to have that 1/250sec fixed under warranty.

If you decide to have a go at it yourself, only disassemble as far as the speed selector (leave it on) and dribble a few drops of lighter fluid, through the speed selector, onto the moving parts of the shutter. This will briefly lubricate the moving parts and if there was too much dry friction before, the parts should move more freely and possibly get that 1/250sec working properly. If not, you'll need to search for something more seriously wrong that relates to just that one specific speed.

 

[nateseff]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:43 PM, kmac said:

The video clip is a great help. We can see that the shutter is firing healthy enough, but you really should send it back to the repairer to have that 1/250sec fixed under warranty.

If you decide to have a go at it yourself, only disassemble as far as the speed selector (leave it on) and dribble a few drops of lighter fluid, through the speed selector, onto the moving parts of the shutter. This will briefly lubricate the moving parts and if there was too much dry friction before, the parts should move more freely and possibly get that 1/250sec working properly. If not, you'll need to search for something more seriously wrong that relates to just that one specific speed.

 

unfortunately i can't take it back anymore for a better repair, however, after watching a mat 124g repair video I'm wondering - is it something that might be causing the blades to stick together? If it were a gear problem, the shutter wouldn't 'fire' right? Which it does every time, just doesn't actually open the blades every time.

It would be great to just have to get into the lens/shutter assembly and see if I can clean the blades - unless of course what's causing it to stick is where they all converge - then I would have to take it fully apart which, i would try to avoid if possible lol. once we get there it's a bit out of my wheelhouse 

[chuck_foreman1]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:43 AM, kmac said:

The video clip is a great help. We can see that the shutter is firing healthy enough, but you really should send it back to the repairer to have that 1/250sec fixed under warranty.

If you decide to have a go at it yourself, only disassemble as far as the speed selector (leave it on) and dribble a few drops of lighter fluid, through the speed selector, onto the moving parts of the shutter. This will briefly lubricate the moving parts and if there was too much dry friction before, the parts should move more freely and possibly get that 1/250sec working properly. If not, you'll need to search for something more seriously wrong that relates to just that one specific speed.

 

This is ok, but  be careful ..too much naphta dissolves old grease dirt etc and it migrates to all the wrong places... I think ..without looking at it .. You can generally unscrew the front element .. there you will see the shutter blades .. very sparing  and "only " on the blades a gentle (Q-tip) of Naphta. If you find that it works  consistently, check it a day later. If inconsistent ..again. .. with a Q-tip wetted with Naphta.. keep wiping the blades CAREFULLY. I think every 2-3 Q-tips you repeat.. ie when it's wet or semi-wet wipe only . The idea is to lift the oil deposit by mildly diluting it and removing it.

[kmac]

3 hours ago, chuck_foreman1 said:

This is ok, but  be careful ..too much naphta dissolves old grease dirt etc and it migrates to all the wrong places... I think ..without looking at it .. You can generally unscrew the front element .. there you will see the shutter blades .. very sparing  and "only " on the blades a gentle (Q-tip) of Naphta. If you find that it works  consistently, check it a day later. If inconsistent ..again. .. with a Q-tip wetted with Naphta.. keep wiping the blades CAREFULLY. I think every 2-3 Q-tips you repeat.. ie when it's wet or semi-wet wipe only . The idea is to lift the oil deposit by mildly diluting it and removing it.

I think there is something more serious going on in the shutter than oil on the blades. The OP's video shows the 1/250 speed firing snappily a few times, then the blades fail to open the next time, snappy a few more times, then fails to open another time. Why that problem is occurring only on the 1/250 speed I'm not real sure, because, and putting simply, all the speeds are interconnected by way of common levers, with only the shutter speed ring dictating how far the levers move for each speed. By rights, all the speeds should have the problem, erratic opening of the blades. There must be more to this particular shutter story than meets the eye. I'm sure it will need a complete disassemble and a trained eye to check all the parts, springs, etc. I would ask the OP to fire all the speeds again to check if there is any, even slight, hesitation of the blades not opening with the other speeds.